GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #2

[wfgodot]

Regarding the sock - perhaps the police have already found it but are using it as a means to flush out the perp.

The perp may panic thinking the sock will incriminate them and return to try and find the sock to destroy evidence.

They could go looking for it near where the body was dumped or try and get back into the flats when the police leave.

Have seen this technique used before in America - releasing info to enable a perp to incriminate themselves by returning to the scene / where they dumped murder weapon only to have LE watching them.

Yes, it's been done over here, but that's a thing used sparingly and mainly works in works of fiction I think. Many killers are not the nervous sort - it would mean relying on the offender being a particular sort of person, and using resources to watch the area might hinder other facets of the hunt. They'd best be playing their strongest game at this time. It's still early, really.

 

[whitedove]

I haven't changed my original thoughts that it was him. He got caught snooping after wrongly thinking both Jo and Greg were going away.

That led to the motive - to silence Jo and preserve his reputation if she threatened to call the police.

He could have easily removed the body from the flats into his car without being seen or his behaviour being out the ordinary.

He had ample time to clean the crime scene before Jo was reported missing on the Sunday including disposing of the sock and pizza where they are unlikely to ever be found.

C/J has lived for 65 years without ever hurting anyone, and no one has put in a complaint about his snooping around, he was a clever man, and I'm sure he would have made a quick reply if Jo returned to find him snooping around in her flat, it was a very cold night, he could say his water upstairs had frozen, one of his water pipes had burst, and he was checking to make sure it had'nt damaged her flat, he would 'nt have to murder her, he was an English teacher, he would find words to account for entering the flat.

 

[wfgodot]

Daily Mail has some new musings:

A second line of inquiry is that the murderer could have begun to strip her body on the grass verge where she was found in Longwood Lane, three miles from her flat, and planned to throw it over a wall into a deep quarry below.

Officers believe that the killer might have been disturbed by a passing car and decided to flee the scene quicker than planned.

The source said: ‘Although it has not been ruled out that her sock was taken as a trophy, it is not seen as the most likely cause for it not being left on the body.

‘The killer has probably either been disturbed stripping the body in Longwood Lane or took it off during an assault. As well as being contaminated with DNA it would been too much hassle to put back on her foot.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-Jos-ski-sock-trophy-It-torn-sex-attack.html

 

[Sgt Jones]

C/J has lived for 65 years without ever hurting anyone, and no one has put in a complaint about his snooping around, he was a clever man, and I'm sure he would have made a quick reply if Jo returned to find him snooping around in her flat, it was a very cold night, he could say his water upstairs had frozen, one of his water pipes had burst, and he was checking to make sure it had'nt damaged her flat, he would 'nt have to murder her, he was an English teacher, he would find words to account for entering the flat.

With all due respect, age, education and profession mean nothing.

Harold Shipman was a doctor and well respected and one of the last people you expect to commit murder.

At the age of 56, it was found he was the UK's worst serial killer with at least 218 victims. He is also one of the most proflific serial killers in history as the total number of people he murdered is thought to be much higher.

Beverley Allit was a nurse but killed several children.

I'm sure CJ could have talked his way out of it but what if Jo questioned him? Asked for proof of the frozen pipes or knew for herself he was lying as she had rinsed a glass in which to pour her cider or done the washing up? What if she went to call the police?

We also don't know if CJ has gone 65 years without hurting anyone - all we know he had a clear record when he worked at Clifton College.

We don't know if he has a criminal record and even if he hasn't, it doesn't mean to say he has never hurt anyone.

 

[whodathoughtit]

Hello, new to the site. This case should be so simple, but there are so many loose ends. Not sure if the police are keeping cards close to their chest or are as flummoxed as we are. Just some musings

1) Using the route taken from Canynge Rd to Longwood Lane, whoever wanted to get rid of the body knew the area well and was evidently making a bee-line for the quarry, with the intent to dispose of her body close to or in the quarry. It appears to have been ultimately dumped hurriedly though.


2) Detectives would be able to work out when the body was dumped by amount of snow that lay beneath the body and amount of snow that lay on top of the body. The website below tells us that in the City of Bristol there was a little on the 17th December and about 5cm most fell on Saturday 18th. After that there was none. Was her body covered in snow or not? Was it laying on snow?

http://www.wunderground.com/weather...FB4&day=17&year=2010&month=12&graphspan=month

3) Jo may have been duped into leaving her flat momentarily by a stranger (i.e. I’ve lost my dog/cat, I can’t start my car, could I borrow a torch etc) and then bundled/escorted away when she steps outside. Had the communal entrance been locked or unlocked (what was the norm?)

However, that seems unlikely now that it transpires she was missing a sock. She would be unlikely to answer door with one sock on. Although, it may have been kept by the killer as a trophy, or left behind in the car whilst she was being dumped.

4) If she was murdered in the flat, WHY move the body? A stranger would NOT move the body – there would be no pay-off, no benefit. It would only heighten the chance of getting caught i.e. more chance of being seen, incriminating evidence in car, CCTV, speed cameras, other flat dwellers, car users.

So,

It was either an abduction from the front door and a murder AWAY from the flat by a stranger. But no sexual motive? Perhaps Jo was too vocal, so the killer silenced her in a panic. An inexperienced abductor, opportune rather than premeditated? But that area of Bristol of an evening is busy, so there would likely be witnesses etc.

Or

A murder in the flat and a panicked dumping of the body by someone Jo knew. Only the parents or the boyfriend would need to deflect away from the flat.

The police need to know every movement of Jo’s family, friends, boyfriend and fellow flat dwellers between 17th December and the day she was found. They need to know what vehicles they drive, phone calls made, bank details, alibis.

As for the the pizza? Foo knows! Was there any evidence that it had been opened i.e. cheese droppings. Or evidence in the oven of Finest pizza burnt cheese, etc? A used plate? A cheesey stringed knife? I don’t think we need to know the contents of her stomach to know whether it was eaten or not. If it is missing in its entirety, then she may have dropped it on her way home, left it in another shop (I’ve done that before!!), donated it – are there any homeless charities en route? She seemed quite merry on CCTV and may have acted on a whim, been forgetful.

Let's hope they get to grips with the case soon.

 

[scottybail]

JIgsy

All good points

 

[wfgodot]

Hello whodathoughtit, and welcome to WebSleuths.

 

[Sgt Jones]

Hello, new to the site. This case should be so simple, but there are so many loose ends. Not sure if the police are keeping cards close to their chest or are as flummoxed as we are. Just some musings

1) Using the route taken from Canynge Rd to Longwood Lane, whoever wanted to get rid of the body knew the area well and was evidently making a bee-line for the quarry, with the intent to dispose of her body close to or in the quarry. It appears to have been ultimately dumped hurriedly though.


2) Detectives would be able to work out when the body was dumped by amount of snow that lay beneath the body and amount of snow that lay on top of the body. The website below tells us that in the City of Bristol there was a little on the 17th December and about 5cm most fell on Saturday 18th. After that there was none. Was her body covered in snow or not? Was it laying on snow?

http://www.wunderground.com/weather...FB4&day=17&year=2010&month=12&graphspan=month

3) Jo may have been duped into leaving her flat momentarily by a stranger (i.e. I’ve lost my dog/cat, I can’t start my car, could I borrow a torch etc) and then bundled/escorted away when she steps outside. Had the communal entrance been locked or unlocked (what was the norm?)

However, that seems unlikely now that it transpires she was missing a sock. She would be unlikely to answer door with one sock on. Although, it may have been kept by the killer as a trophy, or left behind in the car whilst she was being dumped.

4) If she was murdered in the flat, WHY move the body? A stranger would NOT move the body – there would be no pay-off, no benefit. It would only heighten the chance of getting caught i.e. more chance of being seen, incriminating evidence in car, CCTV, speed cameras, other flat dwellers, car users.

So,

It was either an abduction from the front door and a murder AWAY from the flat by a stranger. But no sexual motive? Perhaps Jo was too vocal, so the killer silenced her in a panic. An inexperienced abductor, opportune rather than premeditated? But that area of Bristol of an evening is busy, so there would likely be witnesses etc.

Or

A murder in the flat and a panicked dumping of the body by someone Jo knew. Only the parents or the boyfriend would need to deflect away from the flat.

The police need to know every movement of Jo’s family, friends, boyfriend and fellow flat dwellers between 17th December and the day she was found. They need to know what vehicles they drive, phone calls made, bank details, alibis.

As for the the pizza? Foo knows! Was there any evidence that it had been opened i.e. cheese droppings. Or evidence in the oven of Finest pizza burnt cheese, etc? A used plate? A cheesey stringed knife? I don’t think we need to know the contents of her stomach to know whether it was eaten or not. If it is missing in its entirety, then she may have dropped it on her way home, left it in another shop (I’ve done that before!!), donated it – are there any homeless charities en route? She seemed quite merry on CCTV and may have acted on a whim, been forgetful.

Let's hope they get to grips with the case soon.

Very good points esp about why move the body - why risk being seen when the killer could have just left her there?

As she wasn't wearing boots, coat and didnt have her bag and these were all found at her flat it suggests she made it home. The half drunk cider seems to collaborate that as well.

She could have been duped into going outside but would she have gone outside without something on her feet? It was cold, there was probably snow or ice on the ground so surely she would have put something on her feet?

Neither scenarios make much sense.

If she was abducted and killed on her way home that would mean the killer had to go to her flat and plant her coat, bag and shoes etc and stage the glass of cider - they could have been seen and left DNA.

That doesn't make sense either.

She could have been abducted from inside her flat at say knifepoint and into car outside - the abductor wouldn't worry about her having shoes or a coat on.

But that doesn't make sense either as again there is the risk of them being seen or Jo making a scene as she is taken outside and driven away.

Jo leaving voluntarily with her killer makes no sense either as she would have put shoes and a coat on.

I can see why it baffles the police!

But I honestly think she was killed in the flat by someone she knew and they cleaned the crime scene and dumped her body to try and bide time before the police found it and launched a murder investigation.

Finding no body leaves an investigation in complete limbo as it does not conclusively prove murder whilst suggesting someone could have gone away of their own accord.

So in that respect, I think Jo was going to end up in that quarry but somehow the killer was interrupted.

 

[MMENJBRIT]

Yes... Sgt... Jo was not meant to be on that Verge... She was supposed to go over the wall but they were interrupted by cars going up to the Golf Course.

 

[Luna15]

Re: Moving the body.

The more I think about it, the more I think the police could have used cadaver dogs and they alerted, and that's why the family was told to "prepare for the worst", it would make sense as to why the family were so distraught at the press conference, and why the police are now examining every square inch of the apartment, so

Why move the body? (As my theory is the BF); if he left it there, it would have stayed there until the sunday and he would have been the one to 'discover' it, he may not have been able to face the 'act' he would have to have performed, perhaps he hoped someone would have discovered it where he left it - so exposed - but the snow scuppered his plans. Perhaps when he arrived back on Sunday and no-one had 'discovered' her, it threw him and that's why it took him four hours to re-assess the situation.

 

[whitedove]

With all due respect, age, education and profession mean nothing.

Harold Shipman was a doctor and well respected and one of the last people you expect to commit murder.

At the age of 56, it was found he was the UK's worst serial killer with at least 218 victims. He is also one of the most proflific serial killers in history as the total number of people he murdered is thought to be much higher.

Beverley Allit was a nurse but killed several children.

I'm sure CJ could have talked his way out of it but what if Jo questioned him? Asked for proof of the frozen pipes or knew for herself he was lying as she had rinsed a glass in which to pour her cider or done the washing up? What if she went to call the police?

We also don't know if CJ has gone 65 years without hurting anyone - all we know he had a clear record when he worked at Clifton College.

We don't know if he has a criminal record and even if he hasn't, it doesn't mean to say he has never hurt anyone.

C/J has had his whole life past and present put on the front of all the newspapers, but no one has come up with murder.

Harold Shipman's first crimes came to light in 1998 when he made a clumsy attempt to forge the £386,000 will of one of his victims, 81-year-old Kathleen Grundy, but he had been killing in the 1970s, a long time before he was caught.

I don't think Jo would have questioned C/J, I expect she thought of him as a friend, her B/F did, he asked C/J for help when he could'nt start the car.

The murderer has not been found, C/J has been arrested and bailed, so we don't know if he is guilty or not, you say age, education and profession mean nothing, but a lot of his students looked on him as a good English Teacher, he would have a way with words and would know how to use them, so put in a position of talking his way out of a situation and murdering someone, I think he would take the easy option of using he knowledge of words.

 

[Snoopster]

Very good points esp about why move the body - why risk being seen when the killer could have just left her there?

As she wasn't wearing boots, coat and didnt have her bag and these were all found at her flat it suggests she made it home. The half drunk cider seems to collaborate that as well.

She could have been duped into going outside but would she have gone outside without something on her feet? It was cold, there was probably snow or ice on the ground so surely she would have put something on her feet?

Neither scenarios make much sense.

If she was abducted and killed on her way home that would mean the killer had to go to her flat and plant her coat, bag and shoes etc and stage the glass of cider - they could have been seen and left DNA.

That doesn't make sense either.

She could have been abducted from inside her flat at say knifepoint and into car outside - the abductor wouldn't worry about her having shoes or a coat on.

But that doesn't make sense either as again there is the risk of them being seen or Jo making a scene as she is taken outside and driven away.

Jo leaving voluntarily with her killer makes no sense either as she would have put shoes and a coat on.

I can see why it baffles the police!

But I honestly think she was killed in the flat by someone she knew and they cleaned the crime scene and dumped her body to try and bide time before the police found it and launched a murder investigation.

Finding no body leaves an investigation in complete limbo as it does not conclusively prove murder whilst suggesting someone could have gone away of their own accord.

So in that respect, I think Jo was going to end up in that quarry but somehow the killer was interrupted.

Agree with all of these points. Attacked in her flat, by someone she knew. Intended to be dumped in the quarry, but interrupted. Sock came off either during the attack or as she was dragged.

I don't think she was strangled with the sock. Aren't people usually strangled with something the perp took off as part of the attack, like a blouse?...or something worn closer to the neck, like a scarf? Wouldn't it be awkward to be struggling with someone and reach down to take off their sock? Wouldn't they be kicking?

Earlier, I had speculated that the pizza could be missing since Jo took it to a neighbour's place, either within her building, or dashing without her coat to the next door neighbour's. But the sock changes all of that. Her boots were at home. She certainly wouldn't have dashed outside without them. She also would have put something on her feet even if going somewhere within her building since the common area would be wet from everyone's snow-covered boots. Would she have worn slippers? A low probability IMO.

 

[wfgodot]

Well, the Mirror has now presented this theory of the case:

Jo Yeates murder detectives investigate whether she was killed while collecting Christmas cards

Police are probing the theory Jo, 25, briefly left her flat to walk to the other side of the block.

They think it may explain why her coat and shoes were left behind and there was no sign of a struggle. A former tenant of the flats in Bristol said: “Someone could have grabbed Jo. It’s very dark.”

Jo Yeates may have been grabbed by her killer as she popped round to the other side of her building to pick up her Christmas cards.

Detectives are investigating the possibility she left her basement flat to walk the 20 yards in the dark to the postboxes in the communal hall.

The theory raises the prospect her killer did not enter the 25-year-old’s home on the night she disappeared.

It could also explain why Jo’s coat, shoes and mobile were left behind and police found no sign of a struggle or forced entry.
---
The 39-year-old man, who asked not to be named, revealed he would often leave his door on the latch while collecting his post in the communal hallway of the four-storey Victorian block. He added: “If someone was hanging around they could have grabbed her, it’s very dark. Alternatively, in the time it took Jo to leave her flat to reach the communal area, a prowler could have sneaked in her unlocked flat and laid in wait.”

the rest is at
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...e-collecting-christmas-cards-115875-22829064/

 

[whitedove]

Watching Jo walking through the shop front door to purchase her cider, it seems like she had just been talking to someone outside the shop, and what ever they said, it made her smile, if she was smiling at someone she knew in the shop, she would have turned to say goodbye on leaving.

Maybe they were two young men she had met before, she was a member of the local rowing club, they could be men she was chatting to in the pub, they chat and followed her to the flat, she asks them if they would like some cider, they chat for a while, then asked her if she would like to go to their place, so the three of them leave together, They were spotted by the LL.


They carried on their journey to their place, had some drinks, maybe these young men had sex games in mind, and when Jo was approached, she pushed them away, it got out of hand, and she screamed, one put their hands around her neck to stop her screaming, and when all went quiet they realized she was dead.

They panicked, they must get rid of the body, thought of the old quarry and made their way there, but it was locked, so thought they could put the body over the wall, but they could see a car approaching, they quickly dumped the body back on the side of the road, and drove off, once they calmed down they noticed her things in the back of the car, they can t go back as people in the car may have spotted the body on the side of the road, so they have the idea of taking her belongings back to her flat, they open the door with her key, pick up the pizza on the way out.

The sock could have been left at their place, or dropped along the way,

[FONT=&quot]I don’t think the police would let C/J out on bail if they thought he had murdered someone, so do they believe his story of seeing the three people including Jo walking out from the flat, maybe a little after 9pm, if we believe C/J did see this happen, then we have to include it in what happened that night.

Also it was a bitterly cold night, Jo would not have left the flat without her coat and shoes unless she was unable to do so.
[/FONT]

 

[MMENJBRIT]

Glenis Caruthers - Is there a connection with these Murders?

Sorry I tried to post the Map but could not.

From what I see Glenis Caruthers who was found strangled in 1974 was attending a Party on Worcester Crescent, which is approx 350 yards from Canynge Rd (C/J and Joanna's residence). She was found outside the Bristol Zoo which is approx 350 yards from Clifton College where C/J worked at the time. Below is information from the Avon/Bristol Constabulary Website.

The night Glenis Carruthers was murdered
On 19th January 1974 Glenis Carruthers travelled from Bedford, where she was a student, to attend a friend's 21st Birthday party on Worcester Crescent in Clifton, Bristol.

At around 10.20pm Glenis left the party, possibly to get some fresh air or to make a call from a telephone Kiosk, situated nearby.

Just after 11.00pm there was a sighting of Glenis on the Clifton Downs. The witness thought he saw a courting couple on the grass. A short time after her body was discovered. She had been strangled to death.

The witness described the man as white, between 20 to 25 years old; around 5ft 10inches tall in height, medium build, with brown shoulder length hair. He was wearing a three-quarter length coat and a denim type cap.

At the time of the murder 175 officers assisted the investigation and more than 16,000 people were interviewed, however no information was obtained to identify the offender.

Over the last 36 years this case has been reviewed twice and further items are being submitted to the Forensic Science Service for further examination. It is hoped this may provide a vital breakthrough.

 

[Sgt Jones]

C/J has had his whole life past and present put on the front of all the newspapers, but no one has come up with murder.

Harold Shipman's first crimes came to light in 1998 when he made a clumsy attempt to forge the £386,000 will of one of his victims, 81-year-old Kathleen Grundy, but he had been killing in the 1970s, a long time before he was caught.

The way to look at is just because CJ hasn't been convicted of any crime, including murder, in the past it doesn't mean to say he has never committed a crime before, it just means he hasn't been caught so we don't know.

And as you quite rightly point out, Shipman had been killing for 20 years or more before he got caught - the same could apply to CJ.

A young girl was murdered in Clifton in the 1970s - CJ was teaching at Clifton College and lived near to where her body was found. Her killer has never been caught.

The truth is we don't know about CJ one way or the other but he had keys to Jo's flat. He claimed to have seen her on Dec 17th but never reported it to the police - a neighbour did that despite CJ being active in Neighbourhood Watch.

Previous tenants say he was a snoop who let himself into their flat uninvited and without telling them.

IMHO I think his snooping led to motive and then opportunity.

 

[Destroyer]

Could it be that the murderer had a foot fetish & removed the sock at some point to masterbate ??

The only way we would know if this is a trophy killer would be if they had struck before or again ??

 

[Nausicaa]

Well now we know Joanna was'nt wearing shoes/slippers & that a sock is missing which to me definitely suggests she was killed/abducted from her flat -

I'm new to this forum and I agree with whitedove on one essential point - the possibility that Joanna went voluntarily and fully clothed (with all her effects) to somewhere other than her flat and met her death there. Then the murderer uses Joanna's keys to gain access to her flat and to leave her keys, mobile phone, coat, footwear, etc. inside the flat... At some later stage he conveys the body to the place where it was recovered. By leaving Joanna's effects inside the flat he creates the impression that Joanna was murdered in her home, and thereby diverts attention from him/herself.

Otherwise we have the enormous difficulty for the assassin of carrying the corpse to his/her car in a relatively public place when he/she could just have left it inside. And it is not necessary if the murderer (presumably in any case someone who knows Joanna) enters the flat alone with Joanna's things - much less risky than transporting bodies through the street.

This solution also seems to me to expain better the vanishing pizza which the murderer would see no reason to take back to the flat.

What's wrong with this hypothesis other than the fact that it leaves in all the known suspects and opens the field to many others too?

 

[Myserty64]

I suppose it depends on where her boots and coat were.
If they were where Joanna usually placed them it can be assumed she left her home without them. Unless of course the killer new where they would usually be.
No doubt the police questioned her boyfriend about this.

 

[MMENJBRIT]

Welcome Nausicaa. I agree that it is possible Joanna never walked in to her flat. C/J could have been waiting in the car in a secluded area of the parking area. He calls out her name and says, by the way I had to sign for a package for you, I have it right here. As she walks over he gets out walks around to the back passenger seat where the 'package' is, she joins him to collect the stuff and shove, she's in the car. Maybe this explains the screams that were heard. OR he subdues her inside when she is picking up her mail. He is in some kind of disguise in case anyone sees anything. Big hat, different coat, Maybe he was the one walking with her in hushed tones walking out of the building. The reason he reports this to his neighbors is it gives him a cover again if anyone notices anything.
If C/J is the culprit, I think the temptation was just too much for him knowing that G/R was out of town. If this is not his first offence maybe his cover worked well for him in the past (Nutty Professor, Pillar of the Community, Really nice chap, Teacher at the exclusive Clifton College, not strong enough to lift a body etc etc etc). Maybe he thought this cover would always work for him, but this was a little too close to home for him not to be a suspect esp based on the snooping, entering tenants' flats unannounced. If it was him, he tripped up here.