GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #4

[skibaboo]

Press Association ‏@pressassoc 3m3 minutes ago
Sketch of Nathan Matthews, 28, the stepbrother of 16-year-old Becky Watts, appearing in court charged with her murder

https://twitter.com/pressassoc

 

[Clio]

Another point that might be relevant is that it sounds like SH could've been charged with both assisting an offender and perverting the course of justice, like Maxine Carr. Carr was acquitted of assisting an offender because the jury believed she didn't know Huntley was guilty, but convicted of conspiring to pervert the course of justice, so at least in her case the difference between the charges is whether or not she knew he was guilty. From here:

Possibly but isn't there something nowadays about not being able to be tried on two different counts using the same evidence?

As you say, though, the difference in sentencing is strange - perhaps it's just that perverting the course of justice has more flexibility in sentencing, so it could be anything from a fine to life, whereas assisting an offender is more specific, 3-10 years?

Maybe it's to do with one being a common law charge and the other being a criminal law charge? Anyway, it does seem that perverting the course of justice is perceived as a lesser charge than assisting an offender as per your rerference.

 

[SurfieTX]

Previous case reference

A WOMAN has pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice in connection with the murder of Hampshire mum-of-five Pennie Davis.

Lian Doyle, of Beech Crescent, Hythe, admitted to disposing of “training shoes” which were evidence in a murder investigation.

But prosecutors dropped a charge of assisting an offender against Doyle.

Winchester Crown Court was told that the Crown Prosecution Service wanted that allegation to be withdrawn.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/11747168.Pennie_murder_probe_accused_pleads_guilty/

 

[KatieLH]

Funny you should say that, while looking into sentences for perverting the course of justice I was reading about Maxine Carr, she provided an alibi for Huntley, knowing it to be false but so far as I'm aware believing at that time, that he wasn't involved, she was stupid but with the aid of the press was made into a monster. It's almost as if the biological fact of having a uterus and especially one that has produced a child, should somehow make it worse - how could a woman do such a thing!? If a brother or close male friend had done the same many people will say 'Ooh he was just showing loyalty' ... i'll shut up now, I know I'm rambling [emoji9]

Yeah, it's really interesting - I remember reading a poem about Myra Hindley at school and we had a big discussion about the case and how Hindley (although her actions obviously can't be excused/minimised) was demonised in the press, much more so than Ian Brady. When people discussed Brady, it was with disgust and revulsion but they weren't really shocked that a man could commit that kind of crime - with Hindley, however, the fact that she was a woman seemed to be the main basis of people's horror. It's like you said, the fact that women are capable of having children and being mothers seems to, in the public eye, magnify their crimes to a much viler place than if a male had committed them.

Anyway, I've been following Rebecca's disappearance since the beginning, and I'm so sad that it's happened like this. And angry, too. I'm so sick of young girls being damaged and killed. The dismemberment too for some reason makes it even viler to me (even though I know it's sometimes done for 'practical' reasons) - I dunno, to me it just shows absolutely how little respect the people that committed this crime have for their victim or human life and it's so sad and awful.

 

[Supernovae]

Yeah, it's really interesting - I remember reading a poem about Myra Hindley at school and we had a big discussion about the case and how Hindley (although her actions obviously can't be excused/minimised) was demonised in the press, much more so than Ian Brady. When people discussed Brady, it was with disgust and revulsion but they weren't really shocked that a man could commit that kind of crime - with Hindley, however, the fact that she was a woman seemed to be the main basis of people's horror. It's like you said, the fact that women are capable of having children and being mothers seems to, in the public eye, magnify their crimes to a much viler place than if a male had committed them.

It was a man bites dog story- women kill infrequently relative to men. Plus I suspect there's an element of sexual prurience and exoticisation, particularly with that iconic mug-shot.

 

[Alyce]

Also from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2980210/Beckys-stepbrother-face-court.html



BBM

It is that phrase, consistently lied, which has been going round in my head.....

so presumably she kept up the lies for 96 hours, even after being charged on suspicion of murder, by which time she must surely have worked out ( if she had not already known ) that NM had lied to her.

 

[GigTu]

Another point that might be relevant is that it sounds like SH could've been charged with both assisting an offender and perverting the course of justice, like Maxine Carr. Carr was acquitted of assisting an offender because the jury believed she didn't know Huntley was guilty, but convicted of conspiring to pervert the course of justice, so at least in her case the difference between the charges is whether or not she knew he was guilty. From here:



As you say, though, the difference in sentencing is strange - perhaps it's just that perverting the course of justice has more flexibility in sentencing, so it could be anything from a fine to life, whereas assisting an offender is more specific, 3-10 years?

Providing a false alibi prevents the guilty from being charged. "He couldn't have done that, he was with me" clears someone of being at the scene of a crime, etc. That would be more serious than hosing down a porch to hide evidence. Although, that is also quite serious too.

 

[pukasonqo2]

not the news i was expecting, how the family is going to cope with this new development i don't know
i wish i could do something to change what you have been through becky but i can only wish that you are at peace, wherever you are

 

[Supernovae]

Of course, there is a possibility Shauna genuinely didn't know, but was asked by Nathan to provide an alibi for him for whatever reason. Maybe he admitted it looked dodgy on his part, but ultimately convinced her that he was completley innocent.

I think these women (Maxine Carr being the other famous example) often just aren't the sharpest knives in the draw and simply accept what they're told.

 

[Twigg]

RSBM - That extra 24 hours will be running out in about an hour I think.

It'll be very interesting to see what happens now with these 5, it'll be very telling.

 

[babame]

It makes me feel sick even writing this but do we know if all of Becky has been found now?

 

[Clio]

It is that phrase, consistently lied, which has been going round in my head.....

so presumably she kept up the lies for 96 hours, even after being charged on suspicion of murder, by which time she must surely have worked out ( if she had not already known ) that NM had lied to her.

Not if the dates on the charge sheet quoted by media are correct. Between February 19th and February 28th so any evidence of consistent lies must come from before they were arrested.

 

[aneurin]

Possibly but isn't there something nowadays about not being able to be tried on two different counts using the same evidence?....

I believe so. Or at least something along those lines.

what cannot be done is to put two different counts into the indictment to enable the jury to determine a factual issue where the difference in the facts does not make the offence in each count a different offence. There can only be different counts where there are different offences.

http://www.onebrickcourt.com/files/cases/ali_24157.pdf

...Maybe it's to do with one being a common law charge and the other being a criminal law charge? Anyway, it does seem that perverting the course of justice is perceived as a lesser charge than assisting an offender as per your rerference.

That would be my explanation. Perverting the course of justice is a common law offence. Assisting an offender is a statutory offence, s4 CLA 1967.

 

[Alyce]

Not if the dates on the charge sheet quoted by media are correct. Between February 19th and February 28th so any evidence of consistent lies must come from before they were arrested.

Ah yes, I see what you mean.

But, to be held for 96 hours, I am thinking that she didnt change her story from the lies she told pre arrest ?

 

[Kaly99]

Providing a false alibi prevents the guilty from being charged. "He couldn't have done that, he was with me" clears someone of being at the scene of a crime, etc. That would be more serious than hosing down a porch to hide evidence. Although, that is also quite serious too.

I think motivation would come into play as well. If the person gave a false alibi while believing the other person to be innocent, that would arguably be less serious than hosing down a porch to get rid of evidence, since by doing the latter you'd have to know the person was guilty. Someone giving a false alibi might see it as just a white lie if they believed the person to be innocent anyway.

 

[aneurin]

Yeah, it's really interesting - I remember reading a poem about Myra Hindley at school and we had a big discussion about the case and how Hindley (although her actions obviously can't be excused/minimised) was demonised in the press, much more so than Ian Brady. When people discussed Brady, it was with disgust and revulsion but they weren't really shocked that a man could commit that kind of crime - with Hindley, however, the fact that she was a woman seemed to be the main basis of people's horror. It's like you said, the fact that women are capable of having children and being mothers seems to, in the public eye, magnify their crimes to a much viler place than if a male had committed them. ....

Or it might be because Brady was mad, but Hindley was bad?

In any case, as far as both the US and UK are concerned, the evidence shows that the criminal justice system tends to be harder on men than women.

 

[skibaboo]

Family: Becky's Death Was 'Cruel And Inhumane'


The teen's uncle says she suffered the "most undignified end" but that her family will lay her to rest with "respect and love"

Reading an emotional statement, her uncle Sam Galsworthy said they were determined to "reclaim Rebecca's dignity".

"It was a most undignified end to a beautiful life full of promise," said Mr Galsworthy.

Addressing whoever is responsible, he stared directly down the camera and said: "You will forever suffer the consequences of your actions."

 

[Kaly99]

Possibly but isn't there something nowadays about not being able to be tried on two different counts using the same evidence?

Maybe it's to do with one being a common law charge and the other being a criminal law charge? Anyway, it does seem that perverting the course of justice is perceived as a lesser charge than assisting an offender as per your rerference.

Good point, but I'm pretty sure it would have been the same when Maxine Carr was tried too. Bit puzzling as to how she was tried for both offences, unless there was some suggestion she'd done more than provide an alibi.

But yeah, from the other cases it does seem as if people are charged/convicted with perverting the course of justice when there isn't enough evidence to charge them with assisting offender, suggesting it's a lesser charge.

 

[epiphany]

<snip> Wearing a blue T-shirt and looking tired and unshaven, Matthews was led into the dock in handcuffs by a female custody officer. When asked what his name was he did not hear and said: &#8220;Sorry?&#8221; He then gave his name his date of birth &#8211; 9 January 1987 &#8211; and his address as a street in Warmley, a village on the outskirts on Bristol.

<snip> ...She gave a different address from Matthews&#8217; &#8211; Cotton Mill Lane in Barton Hill, Bristol, which has been the subject of intensive police searches.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...han-matthews-and-shauna-hoare-appear-in-court

 

[Clio]

Ah yes, I see what you mean.

But, to be held for 96 hours, I am thinking that she didnt change her story from the lies she told pre arrest ?

Well we don't know as yet. She may have admitted, sometime after arrest, that she lied but that doesn't mean she admitted to knowing of an offence. They may still have been trying to establish evidence that her lies were not "innocent" as I think you put it. It's relatively easy to prove someone has lied (e.g you said he was with you at xx:xx but here he is on CCTV at the corner shop at that time) - it's much harder to prove she knew what he was doing when he wasn't with her.