GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #4

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laserdisc10 said:
Wondered the same thing for several days, particularly as SH, in the tv interview, appeared emphatic she had taken 'nothing' with her when she supposedly left CS's house to go shopping. Most girls take a bag, even an apparently small one as shown in the cctv image, in which to keep their money, phone, tissues, lip-gloss, etc. They automatically grab their bag - it's 'part of' them, usually. And if as SH claimed, she took nothing - where did she keep the money he supposedly gave her ... in her jeans pocket? And if they weren't jean but leggings which have no pocket as far as I know, what did she do with money she'd need to pay her bus fare -- keep it in her sock, or hold it in her hand, remembering she'd be required to carry loose change after paying the bus fare?
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When I first heard the SH interview and that she was supposed to have came downstairs at 10.30 'ish and left at 12.10, it struck me that the timing was completely off. In 1hr and 40 mins she's supposed to have came downstairs, played with the Nintendo DS, ate toast followed by sausage rolls (a minimum of 15mins for both items to heat up and a minimum of 15 mins to eat them) leaving an hour and 10 mins to play the Nintendo, have a conversation about flipflops, the bike scratching her knee etc, go upstairs and get changed etc. It just didn't add up. I've got a son and two young nieces and even my son can take up to an hour getting changed. My nieces wouldn't go out of the door without making sure their hair and clothes were perfect either.
 
laserdisc10 said:
I don't know. Don't think I give her that much credit, considering she continued with the facade, continued living in that place, continued for the sake of the media prior to the final search to say she didn't know anything ... didn't know where Tia was or who was responsible and just wanted her back with the T-shirts on a bonfire

This is the same woman who lost composure with media when reversing her car. Yet she could control herself if she suspected, let alone knew, that her lover had killed the grandchild who was supposedly her life

In my opinion, if CS had even an inkling SH was involved, it was a case of ' Sorry Tia, but saving face, maintaining my life such as it is, evading the little problems that accompany murder are more important to me than you. You're dead. I'm alive '
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I don't know either. I've gone all over the place on this. I just keep having to remind myself that just beacuse she hasn't been charged with anything yet doesn't mean she won't be at a later date. Also, it's a very different thing having a feeling about something and having the evidence to be able to prove it.
 
originally posted by laserdisc10
Still can't understand why police have reportedly stated there's a possibility Tia may have still been alive when they carried out the first search when it's simultaneously been reported the child's body was in such an advanced stage of composition that identification was only achieved via dental records
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Originally posted by Clio
BBM Not sure that they have. I thought that was just the media's suggestion. Media sensationalising the Met's apology was what I thought that was about
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I'm not sure they have either although I've read it, as you have also, no doubt

Usually I'm far more organised, but I didn't intend to remain in this thread as long as I have and was reading things piecemeal online without saving many at all as I'd usually do. Have read the suggestion (Tia may have been alive during first search, etc.) more than once and have a feeling the media was quoting the police spokesperson, but may be wrong

Several days ago someone posted a decomposition timeline which said that the skin begins to fall apart on Day 8, so I'm not at all confident of my suspicions the decomposition was too far advanced in the case of Tia for it to be possible she'd been dead only 7 days (or six if police did state she may have been alive during the first seach)

It's the reason I pored over that blurry cctv image said to be Tia and spent so much time wondering if in fact it had been NS

The weather was hot during the week of the search (25-27 degrees?) and the body was in a loft which could have been up to ten degrees or more warmer. I live in a country which often has temperatures and humidity far in excess of what Addington experienced that week though and it's not all that common for dental records to be necessary to ascertain identity after only 7 or 6 days. Not as far as I'm aware. Could be wrong. Maybe they just don't announce it here
 
Clio said:
I don't know either. I've gone all over the place on this. I just keep having to remind myself that just beacuse she hasn't been charged with anything yet doesn't mean she won't be at a later date. Also, it's a very different thing having a feeling about something and having the evidence to be able to prove it.
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Yes, you've said it for me. Hate to suspect someone if they're innocent and it's even worse to imply otherwise, so it's a wrestle with conscience all the way in addition to so many theories suggesting themselves
 
Am I right in thinking that bodies decompose much faster when exposed to air than water, etc etc. In which case, if she was so tightly wrapped that the smell failed to leak out, then was decomposition really so fast in 8 days that dental records were required?

Just beginning to think maybe she had been dead a lot longer than we previously have thought, but the CCTV contradicts that theory entirely. That CCTV image is dubious: but, and without wanting to sound crude or anything like that, the girl's body is very child like in that image especially around the breasts/shoulders: I don't think it could possibly be NS.
 
kaos said:
When I first heard the SH interview and that she was supposed to have came downstairs at 10.30 'ish and left at 12.10, it struck me that the timing was completely off. In 1hr and 40 mins she's supposed to have came downstairs, played with the Nintendo DS, ate toast followed by sausage rolls (a minimum of 15mins for both items to heat up and a minimum of 15 mins to eat them) leaving an hour and 10 mins to play the Nintendo, have a conversation about flipflops, the bike scratching her knee etc, go upstairs and get changed etc. It just didn't add up. I've got a son and two young nieces and even my son can take up to an hour getting changed. My nieces wouldn't go out of the door without making sure their hair and clothes were perfect either.
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I know what you mean. At first I defended him because I believed that because he'd been an underdog most of his life that he'd learned he needed to throw in everything he could think of as defence against people's suspicions

Now we've learned/been told the child's remains were in the house/loft for a week, I take the easy way out sometimes and tell myself he's the girl's killer and everything he's said has been a lie and the timeline for Friday is nothing more than an assortment gleaned from other weekends Tia stayed at CS's place
 
graceholl said:
Am I right in thinking that bodies decompose much faster when exposed to air than water, etc etc. In which case, if she was so tightly wrapped that the smell failed to leak out, then was decomposition really so fast in 8 days that dental records were required?

Just beginning to think maybe she had been dead a lot longer than we previously have thought, but the CCTV contradicts that theory entirely. That CCTV image is dubious: but, and without wanting to sound crude or anything like that, the girl's body is very child like in that image especially around the breasts/shoulders: I don't think it could possibly be NS.
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You've described the quandry which confronts us very well
 
graceholl said:
Am I right in thinking that bodies decompose much faster when exposed to air than water, etc etc. In which case, if she was so tightly wrapped that the smell failed to leak out, then was decomposition really so fast in 8 days that dental records were required?

Just beginning to think maybe she had been dead a lot longer than we previously have thought, but the CCTV contradicts that theory entirely. That CCTV image is dubious: but, and without wanting to sound crude or anything like that, the girl's body is very child like in that image especially around the breasts/shoulders: I don't think it could possibly be NS.
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Re: decomposition. The older I become, the less strong my stomach, otherwise I'd consult a book I picked up at a sale about the subject. Never opened it. Need to get rid of it actually

Anyway, have no idea if this is correct, but I suspect being enclosed in plastic (although I doubt it was air-tight) might have accelerated decomposition under the loft's conditions. I suspect that if she'd been left in the loft space sans plastic that decomp would have been slower (although vermin may have taken their toll)

Very advanced decomposition though in approx. one week. It doesn't sound right to me
 
Perhaps there was another reason why she was so badly decomposed, perhaps she had bad injuries (they only said they could not ascertain the cause of death), they never said that they could not find injuries/evidence of sexual assault/other non-life threatening injuries.
Perhaps her face was disfigured postmortem......

All they said about the medical examiners report is that they could not find a cause of death, and that the body was identified by dental records due to bad decomposition....but they never mentioned what they could ascertain.
 
YidArmyRach said:
Looking at the rather blurred cctv image of Tia at the Co-op (last confirmed sighting) .... it is probably just me, but it looks more like NS than it does the pictures we've seen of Tia, esp as she is described as being "slight" and small for her age.

article-2183920-146CC3EC000005DC-967_636x371.jpg
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I thought the vid pic of Tia looked too "matronly" for lack of a better word for a sight, small 12 year old, too.

Now that you mention it... It does look more like NS than TS.
 
Crazy Mama said:
Perhaps there was another reason why she was so badly decomposed, perhaps she had bad injuries (they only said they could not ascertain the cause of death), they never said that they could not find injuries/evidence of sexual assault/other non-life threatening injuries.
Perhaps her face was disfigured postmortem......

All they said about the medical examiners report is that they could not find a cause of death, and that the body was identified by dental records due to bad decomposition....but they never mentioned what they could ascertain.
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Oh. I thought they'd said there were no visible signs of trauma ?
 
I thought they said there was possible bruising to the lower body, but couldn't be sure due to decomposition?
 
Crazy Mama said:
you could be right, I am brain fried and should be thrown off the case.

Is postmortem damage also trauma?
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Based simply in other cases, 'visible signs of trauma' would include, I suppose, things such as knife and bullet wounds, broken bones including the skull, ligature marks, burns, etc. Strangulation is indicated (I've read) from a broken bone inside the neck (hyoid?) and from reddish staining at the base of teeth

If the killer had used a plastic bag to suffocate the victim, there would have been marks around the neck from plastic under pressure, so based on what we've been told, no such marks were present which led to the theory she'd been suffocated. If she'd been smothered by the killer's palm over her mouth or nose, that would still leave marks, which only leaves smothering with something pliable/soft, such as a cushion or similar

Post mortem markings can usually be differentiated from injuries/marks inflicted prior to death, I think. Post mortem marks can arise from the body's own pressure on something else or pressure of limb upon limb after death which leaves marks similar to severe bruising, according to a case I watched on Youtube where a man was squashed into a large plastic tub after death. They showed a very brief real life image and he looked to be black and blue from bruising although it was explained the gross discolouration was caused by the way the body had lain and blood settling. His actual cause of death was huge amount of prescription drugs administered by the killer
 
None of this is a pleasant thing to think of, but there were photos taken of SH very shortly after Tia was declared missing. I've seen it suggested he may have had slight scratches to his face, although I didn't notice any

Suffocation must be a horrible way to die (not that there are many nice ways). Tia was small, but despite her physical size, she would, like anything else, have fought for her life and fought more frantically as air was denied her (if in fact she was smothered). I don't imagine it would have been a swift death either because minute amounts of air could seep through a cushion or pillow pressed over a victim's face, thus prolonging death and hope

How could the killer have smothered a fit little girl without suffering scratches, some even quite deep?

I've thought about it and to restrain the victim whilst smothering them, it's possible the killer had to straddle the victim to pin down their arms and restrain their lower body. If that occurred, surely the victim would have bruises on their upper arms - on the inside which easily bruises?

To restrain the victim's legs, which would be thrashing, the killer may have had to sit on the victim's lower abdomen and hold down the victim's legs with his own, inverted, lower legs. All this whilst exerting pressure on the pillow or cushion held over the victim's face, with his forearms pressed down on the victim's upper arms

If any of the above is plausible, it might explain bruising to the lower body, although bruising to the upper arms should be evident also

Not sure how a killer would otherwise smother a victim and emerge scratch-free, unless the victim had been knocked unconscious first, or drugged, in which case damage to the skull should be evident and toxicology would show traces of drugs
 
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