GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #2

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DeeMarie said:
How heavy is the septic tank cover?
How long would it take to remove it?
Would it take more than one person to remove it/gain access?
Is there another way to access the septic tank besides the cover?
Could Noah have been placed in the septic tank at a later time? - since it takes more time/people/to open the cover?
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These are some of the questions I woke up my poor husband to ask during the night. He did tell me that of septic tanks that he's seen and he's seen a lot, a five year old child couldn't lift the cover. I asked if any covers were hinged so that if somehow he did get it open, could the door fall shut. He said anything is possible, but not likely because he doesn't think he could have opened it on his own. I also asked about older homemade tanks being left open or falling through. Again, possible, but the odors coming from the tank would let everyone know it was open. It's my understanding that Noah wasn't found until the tank was pumped, which means he was at the bottom? Wonder if there's some kind of large pipe that opens somewhere else and he slid in? I'm examining every possible scenario.
 
Does anyone remember Abbeys story?

When the child unwittingly stepped on the lid of the septic tank, it flipped over and she vanished from sight. Then the lid flipped back into place.

Parman’s grown son, Michael Durrant, 30, saw the lid pop up and quickly ran to help. When he peered into the hole, Abbey was putting her swimming lessons to good use, keeping her self afloat in the muck, which was several feet deep.

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-...ank_in_tewksbury_family_warns_of_dangers.html
 
If Noah was not in the habit of being outside alone, and this was more or less the first time...it just seems bizarre to me that he would have such a tragic and to me, unlikely, accident with the septic tank. Too many "firsts", if he never was unattended, if Mom never slept and left him to his own devices before, etc...but jmo.
 
Regarding the SAR dogs, IIRC, they hit at the end of the driveway as the furthest point. If Noah played in the yard, wouldn't the yard still contain his scent? Or does the scent wear off after awhile? Was it reported they did an initial search of the septic tank?

Certainly, if the cover was down deep, they would have noticed recently disturbed earth. But if it was ground level? My brain just can't fathom putting a little boy in the septic tank on purpose. If his scent was not traced there, would it mean that he was carried? I just can't imagine his mom carrying her son and placing him in the septic tank. Because I don't want to...
 
I can barely stand the thought of a child dying. I pray that whatever was the cause of Noah's death, that he didn't suffer. I hope it was fast and painless and he didn't even realize what was happening.
 
trigger said:
Does anyone remember Abbeys story?

When the child unwittingly stepped on the lid of the septic tank, it flipped over and she vanished from sight. Then the lid flipped back into place.

Parman’s grown son, Michael Durrant, 30, saw the lid pop up and quickly ran to help. When he peered into the hole, Abbey was putting her swimming lessons to good use, keeping her self afloat in the muck, which was several feet deep.

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-...ank_in_tewksbury_family_warns_of_dangers.html
Click to expand...

But if it was a similar cover in this case, then surely it would have been seen (even if it looked tightly shut) and investigated immediately? I just assumed that as LE had taken some days to discover this tank and Noah, that it must have been very well hidden. MOO.

Even if it was latched shut, surely you'd check anyway, considering nobody at all had seen Noah outside of the house since his disappearance. Very early on, with no sightings elsewhere, I thought he'd be found very close to home and surely LE wouldn't just assume a latched cover has been latched the entire time.
 
AnnaGrace said:
These are some of the questions I woke up my poor husband to ask during the night. He did tell me that of septic tanks that he's seen and he's seen a lot, a five year old child couldn't lift the cover. I asked if any covers were hinged so that if somehow he did get it open, could the door fall shut. He said anything is possible, but not likely because he doesn't think he could have opened it on his own. I also asked about older homemade tanks being left open or falling through. Again, possible, but the odors coming from the tank would let everyone know it was open. It's my understanding that Noah wasn't found until the tank was pumped, which means he was at the bottom? Wonder if there's some kind of large pipe that opens somewhere else and he slid in? I'm examining every possible scenario.
Click to expand...

I was curios also if there is any other access point to the septic tank other than through the lid. I am not sure of the weather conditions there but if the ground was eroded and would give way. This happened in my city in the last two weeks
http://www.courier-journal.com/stor.../pleasure-ridge-park-woman-sinkhole/24946893/
 
Zuri said:
Regarding the SAR dogs, IIRC, they hit at the end of the driveway as the furthest point. If Noah played in the yard, wouldn't the yard still contain his scent? Or does the scent wear off after awhile? Was it reported they did an initial search of the septic tank?

Certainly, if the cover was down deep, they would have noticed recently disturbed earth. But if it was ground level? My brain just can't fathom putting a little boy in the septic tank on purpose. If his scent was not traced there, would it mean that he was carried? I just can't imagine his mom carrying her son and placing him in the septic tank. Because I don't want to...
Click to expand...

BBM

ITA. I find it hard to believe that any parent would kill a child but of course it happens. But if his mother did kill Noah my brain just can't process her putting his little body into a disgusting, stinky place. It would be a stretch for a father to do it but I would believe that before I could wrap my head around mom doing it. Also, the aunt & uncle commented on how much Noah was loved so wouldn't a parent that could do this show some kind of psycho behavior in the past?

JMO
 
Sweetgrits said:
BBM

ITA. I find it hard to believe that any parent would kill a child but of course it happens. But if his mother did kill Noah my brain just can't process her putting his little body into a disgusting, stinky place. It would be a stretch for a father to do it but I would believe that before I could wrap my head around mom doing it. Also, the aunt & uncle commented on how much Noah was loved so wouldn't a parent that could do this show some kind of psycho behavior in the past?

JMO
Click to expand...

I agree. But, trying to imagine a parent discovering their child had died due to neglect or consuming something they shouldn't for example, is it possible a parent might panic and try to hide the body to keep themselves out of trouble/prison. If you found your child deceased I would imagine your brain would just go into complete meltdown and you wouldn't be thinking the way you normally would.

Whilst I agree that it is the last place you would want to place your beloved child, I guess it might be seen as the last place anyone would think a parent would put a child ....... so a perfect hiding place in one way.

Not saying this happened, just trying to explain why I think someone might use a septic tank to hide a body. And that could be for anyone, not just parents. There are plenty of parents who have killed their children and used equally horrible means of hiding the fact.
 
Do you guys remember Devon Michael Davis? Little 2 yr old boy who wandered off, was missing for 4-5 days, and was eventually found in a nearby pond. It was one of the first cases I got really deeply involved with on WS.

I friended his mom on Facebook after it was all over and spent some time talking to her after some time had passed. She said the hardest part, other than losing him, was the fact that so many people thought she would be capable of hurting her son. The guilt of being asleep while he wandered off was bad enough, but she felt judged and attacked by people who really didn't know anything.

I guess I say this to point out why I give the family the benefit of the doubt. If they are guilty, LE will make it known. Until then, we don't really know - and families do read boards like this when they google their kids.
 
When I first joined websleuths I'd get angry and defend the parents to no end. After several cases I realized that parents kill their children. I wasn't ready for the cruel reality at first. But now I know going into most cases that there is the reality that the parents being involved is not only possible but quite likely. Noah's case took me by surprise. I thought he was dead from the get go but really thought he'd wandered away, probably fell into the septic.

(modsnip)

Hopefully we have answers soon. A septic tank is no place for a baby.
 
Parents do kill their children. That doesn't mean parents always kill their children. When we don't have any information to go on and just jump to that because - as you say - it's common ... well, it doesn't help anyone. And isn't that why we're here?

The moment LE releases any sort of information which implicates them, then fine. But so far LE has bent over backwards not to implicate them.

I figured my position might be unpopular, but I've felt it since I joined 5 years ago and just wanted to put it out there.
 
Looking at videos in the news when you google Noah's name the houses are so close together and even across the street, on a weekend day (Sun morning) yet not 1 person saw him?
not 1 person heard or saw anything?
Did mom go screaming outside calling his name when she woke up? Any neighbors hear her?
When was the police called or 911?
Was the neighborhood used to seeing him outside alone allot? I know mom says he never did this, but we don't know truth.
 
tresptip said:
The Septic tank was "scheduled" to be drained and searched.
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BBM If it was scheduled would they have been allowed to do that while there was a search for Noah in progress? Can you give a link saying it was scheduled? I thought I had read everything but I missed that
 
Good Morning Websleuths Friends,

Please remember we cannot post rumors. If you state something as a fact please provide a link to back up your statement.

Thank you,
Tricia
 
There should be a COD from the ME soon and, hopefully, another presser later today so we'll know one way or another.

There has been no indication that DCF has been involved (i.e., to put the baby girl in protective custody), right?
 
I'm still unsure with the whole septic tank issue. I have read stories where accidents have happened and children have fallen into septic tanks, so I do know it can happen.
I would have thought there would be some evidence of this though, a broken/ faulty lid or an area sunken in. If that had been the case then LE should have checked it straight away.
Then if there was no evidence and the lid looked to be attached, LE should still have checked it, just incase.

The other thing I'm unsure about is,when the dogs were brought in on day 1, two different dogs tracked Noah to the road. Now we know where Noah was then, why was there no scent picked up leading to the septic tank. This would have been the last place Noah walked?
 
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