Verdict Watch Thread Saturday July 13

[SilkySifaka]

Justice for Trayvon. I think the fact they want to work through lunch means they are getting somewhere but i am so nervous about where!

 

[fran]

Are they deliberating now and over the weekend? TIA

Yes, been at it since 9 this am, Eastern time.

hth
fran

 

[rose222]

Are they deliberating now and over the weekend? TIA

They are deliberating today. Not sure about tomorrow, Sunday.

 

[nnglas]

Ex Police Chief, Bill Lee's testimony lasted about 15 minutes.

Bill Lee - 7/8/2013 - Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Trial - YouTube

He had far more he could have testified to in order to explain the railroading of George Zimmerman. He wasn't allowed to tell the jury that he objected to having the Martin family listen to the 911 tape as a group. In normal police investigations, each person would be brought in individually, and they would have been played tapes of 6 different individuals, and then pick out which voice they recognized. Just like they show witnesses 6 different pictures in a lineup and ask them to pick out the person they saw in the commission of a crime. The city manager and the mayor took this out of police hands, and ran with it. When asked by the defense if the city manager normally conducted police investigations, or fought fires for the fire department, the answer (of course) was, NO!
Too bad the judge wouldn't allow him to prove there was no evidence to arrest Zimmerman, and to show that his civil rights were ignored at the urging of political forces.

Mr Lee spoke with CNN yesterday . Here is a portion of what he had to say.

"It was (relayed) to me that they just wanted an arrest. They didn't care if it got dismissed later," he said. "You don't do that."
When Sanford police arrived on the scene on February 26, 2012, after Zimmerman fatally shot unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, they conducted a "sound" investigation, and the evidence provided no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman at the scene, he said.

It had nothing to do with Florida's controversial "Stand Your Ground" law, he said; from an investigative standpoint, it was purely a matter of self-defense.Here's the rest of the article.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/10/justice/sanford-bill-lee-exclusive/index.html

IMO it's not hard to have no probable cause when you don't conduct an investigation.

TM's hands weren't bagged in order to get evidence that gave the injuries to GZ.

RJ wasn't contacted to see what if anything she heard.

The only investigation was listening to GZ.

And don't forget that Serino wanted GZ charged and this police chief refused.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[iluvmua]

I'm still asking the question - when the police were called to the scene right after TM was murdered - why didn't the police canvas the complex to see if TM was a resident or a guest there? Why did they accept the word of GZ that TM was a intent on burglary?


IMO

IIRC, they did go door to door, the investigation lasted for several hours.

George never said Trayvon was a intent on burglary.

He thought he might be one, but he never right out said that he was. IMO

 

[pkz]

Wondering if the pic shown yesterday on TV (reportedly shown to the jury early on in testimony) has changed any minds here.

The pic is very graphic and I will not post a link, but it sure puts the skipping due to baggy pants to rest, shows minimal grass stains and seriously TM does not even look like he was in a roll on the ground tussle. WOW just WOW.

TM was wearing khakis, skinny khakis.

 

[Coldpizza]

Kyle Hightower ‏@khightower
Jurors are eating lunch from 12-1. #ZimmermanTrial #TrayvonMartin

https://twitter.com/khightower

I heard on HLN that the jurors could deliberate during lunch but no questions could be asked as the Staff, Judge and Attorneys would be at lunch.

 

[MissJ]

Just praying that whatever verdict is reached that there is no violence afterward!

 

[Cracka*Jaxx]

I think we will hear a verdict by 5:00 today. I think this jury is working hard to try to do right. For our justice system to work properly they need to be able to make a decision like this with no regard to any protests or reactions. They need to follow the laws of Florida and look at the evidence.
I hope that there is no violence if the decision goes against the opinions or hopes of any groups.

I think they chose to go in on a Saturday because they felt they'd have a verdict by the end of the day. Otherwise, I think they would have just gone in on Monday, like every other week.

Zimmerman deserves a Not Guilty verdict, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[iluvmua]

I hope this jury comes to the right verdict.

 

[Beyond Belief]

Thankfully we are not responsible for a decision in this case. I certainly will not be celebrating the verdict no matter what it turns out to be. The whole thing just makes me sad.

 

[qwerty2013]

:tyou:No matter the verdict, I want to thank many WS members for insightful opinions, facts and well-argued posts that shed more light onto the case, eg. the possibility of gun recoil that could account for GZ's bleeding nose in the absence of GZ DNA on TM, details about Florida's self-defense laws, etc. Please keep them up, they are valuable information. IMO:twocents::twocents::twocents:

 

[iluvmua]

Did anyone else come into this thinking George was guilty?

Ans what changed your mind?

I thought he was guilty until may of last year when the truth finally started coming out. IMO

 

[m00c0w]

I have seen something repeatedly discussed in the thread that, IMO, is an unfounded assertion based on little evidence.

Let's try to take an objective look at the notion that Zimmerman's weapon recoiling into his face may have cut his nose, bloodied it, potentially broken it, and slammed his head into the ground.

Here are three videos of the weapon being fired:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crgft-rtNOA#t=55s"]Kel-Tec PF9 Range Day (Part 1) - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSjFFZtXDdE"]Kel-Tec PF9 Range Review: EDC or Closet Bound? - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb8wZ1kCMDU#t=50s"]KEL-TEC PF-9 ~ RANGE DAY - YouTube[/ame]

This is not the amount of recoil I would expect to see to cause significant injury to someone. Even in one video where the individual isn't controlling the weapon well:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnSc3Dtb-_Y"]Kel-Tec PF9 range day - YouTube[/ame]

It's still easily controlled, doesn't ever go flying out of the shooter's hands, and clearly doesn't expend enough force to give someone black eyes, a broken nose, and slam their head into the ground.

Let's take another look at the laceration on his nose:

It is off to one side, and maybe a quarter of an inch long. If it was a gun recoiling so hard that it slammed his head back into the sidewalk, why is the injury so small? Logically, if the weapon hit the very center of his nose, it would have stopped there... but the lacerations would be equilateral - there would be two lines from the rear sights on each side of his nose. If the weapon only hit one side, and was with such great force... It seems to me that the weapon would have kept travelling, creating a much larger laceration down the side of his nose and possibly even an eye injury if we're to believe the force of the recoil was enough to bloody his nose, cause significant swelling, and potentially slam his head into the ground.

Let's not forget that his nose was, in fact, swollen and bloody:

Now, onto the question about hollow points.

It was asserted factually by someone that hollow points kill instantly or close to instantly. That they're meant for killing, and that someone who shoots someone with a hollow point round wishes to kill that person. It's also been stated numerous times that hollow points are used because they're so frangible.

Let's dissect this one by one:

Police almost exclusively use hollow point rounds because of the desire to not over-penetrate and their effectiveness at stopping the threat. However, I'm sure we are all aware that everyone the police shoots does not die. In fact, people have been hit multiple times by multiple police officers and still lived. The assertion that hollow points are some magical killer bullet that kills everyone instantly or close to instantly is patently false. Many factors go into death by gunshots, and a surprisingly large number of people live despite being shot.

The second assertion is that they are meant for killing. This is pretty true. However, the assertion makes it seem as if all types of rounds (except LTL, of course) are not meant for killing. If you are using deadly force, you are beyond the point of trying to keep someone alive. The whole premise behind deadly force is that the person will possibly die. You don't just shoot someone to wound them. You don't use a round to defend yourself based on how well it doesn't stop a target.

This leads into the third point - hollow point bullets expand inside the body. They aren't necessarily any more "frangible" than a regular fully-jacketed round. .223 rifle slugs are well-known for their frangibility and they're high-speed FMJ rounds. The point behind hollow point bullets is that they expend all of their force inside the body cavity/wound channel by expanding outward and mushrooming. This delivers a more devastating wound, depending on where the individual is hit, and also helps to prevent the round from exiting the body. Because all of the force is used up when the bullet mushrooms, the velocity of the round is greatly reduced when it enters the body and the threat of over-penetration and possibly hitting something you did not intend to hit is greatly lessened.

In my opinion, using hollow points is vastly more responsible than using fully jacketed rounds. If you're using deadly force, the threat needs to be stopped - HPs help effect this. You also don't want to over-penetrate and hit someone or something you did not intend to hit - HPs win in this category again.

:twocents:

All in my opinion as someone that is very proficient with firearms, works in the industry, has shot everything from .22LR to .50BMG, regularly places in the top third of shooting competitions, and has a concealed carry permit.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Wondering if the pic shown yesterday on TV (reportedly shown to the jury early on in testimony) has changed any minds here.

The pic is very graphic and I will not post a link, but it sure puts the skipping due to baggy pants to rest, shows minimal grass stains and seriously TM does not even look like he was in a roll on the ground tussle. WOW just WOW.

TM was wearing khakis, skinny khakis.

I have no idea how any of this proves what he did or didn't do. He had grass stains on knees, he was seen on top of gz.
The picture is sad and emotional. It is a horrible thing that he is gone. But it still does not prove that gz killed him with ill will. That he wanted tm dead.

And that is what matters. Did the state prove that gz killed tm with ill will. That he wanted him dead.

 

[bellaalex]

It is too bad that George Zimmerman's involvement in getting justice for a black homeless man beaten up by the then Sanford Police Chief's son was not widely publicized. Anything pro GZ in the media isn't widely reported.
Interestingly enough, the current Judge Nelson was also the judge in the previous case.
http://www.nejamelaw.com/rick-jancha-in-the-news/cops-son-gets-probation.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/trayvon_george_and_the_homeless_man.html
From article:
Upset at the lack of media attention, Zimmerman and his wife Shellie printed fliers demanding that the community "hold accountable" officers responsible for any misconduct.

They then drove the fliers around to area churches and passed them out on a Sunday morning. Later, at a public meeting in January 2011, Zimmerman took the floor and said, "I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white. It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those that are in the thin blue line."

This meeting was recorded on video. As a result of the publicity, Police Chief Brian Tooley, whom Zimmerman blasted for his "illegal cover-up and corruption," was forced to resign.

Ironically, perhaps, Zimmerman headlined his fliers with a famous quote from Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." He would have been better off quoting another Anglo-Irishman, Oscar Wilde: "No good deed goes unpunished."

<modsnip>


.....................
No good deed goes unpunished. Indeed.

 

[missmazzy]

Just praying that whatever verdict is reached that there is no violence afterward!

IMO, there should be no violence anywhere, no matter the verdict. Whatever the outcome, it was determined via a jury trial, which is at the very core of our constitution.

 

[Maryann123]

IMO it's not hard to have no probable cause when you don't conduct an investigation.

TM's hands weren't bagged in order to get evidence that gave the injuries to GZ.

RJ wasn't contacted to see what if anything she heard.

The only investigation was listening to GZ.

And don't forget that Serino wanted GZ charged and this police chief refused.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Read the article I gave the link to. Mr Lee disputes that, and says when news outlets were claiming there was no investigation, these same news organizations were posting pictures showing they were out in full force doing just that. The police chief got it right....there was zero evidence to show it was anything other than self defense.

 

[rose222]

At this stage of the trial I don't think folks on here are going to change their minds about Zimmerman's innocence or guilt. It's just nice having this little niche of our own while we wait for the verdict. I have some nice cheese pizza to keep up my strength. Of course once they tell us that there is a verdict I'll be a nervous wreck.

Hopefully there will be peace all around regardless of the verdict. Prayers for everyone to keep it together.

 

[iluvmua]

So if George is found guilty he will have to stay in jail for at least 18 months correct?

I also hope this jury votes out of fear that riots will start if they do not give the correct verdict.