**Verdict watch weekend discussion thread** 3/3-4/2012

[otto]

I'm pretty sure I heard one of the witnesses say that Michelle had a sad side to her. Was it only after she met Jason, or did she always have a sad side to her?

 

[otto]

:goodpost:


I wish more posters would * try* to dispute and/ or explain away all of the above as a whole instead of taking them one by one...bc taking one of them at a time ....sure you can twist it in JY's favor (well, not really in my opinion, but for arguments sake...) but I don't see how one can dispute ALL of it on a whole.

Because it just doesn't make sense .....unless an episode of the Twlight Zone is being pitched. Btw, a BIG thank you for all of your info on this case. You provided a lot of it. Thanks also for taking the time to correct any and all misinformation. That's important, so I appreciate you taking the time to do it.

I hope MY and her family get the justice they so rightfully deserve.

Moo. Moo. Moo.

I got as far as the rock and got stuck. Everything up to the camera (except for the murder) can be explain, both times, but add the rock ???, it's pretty hard to explain without involving that strong wind ... while someone was leaving through the fire exit door at the bottom of the stairwell, rather than entering the hallway and leaving through the non-emergency door (the one with the keycard access).

Has anyone else wondered why Jason didn't just say that he put a rock in the door and thought that the guy behind him kicked out the rock?

 

[Elisaa444]

I'm pretty sure I heard one of the witnesses say that Michelle had a sad side to her. Was it only after she met Jason, or did she always have a sad side to her?

I was going to re listen because at first this caught me off guard. But then after thinking about it I suppose my friends and family would say I have a "sad side." So, putting it into prespective I don't find anything off putting about this statement. I just jumped the gun with my reply. Probably because I definitely should be sleeping now. :bedtime:

Moo.moo.moo

 

[heidisams]

I got as far as the rock and got stuck. Everything up to the camera (except for the murder) can be explain, both times, but add the rock ???, it's pretty hard to explain without involving that strong wind ... while someone was leaving through the fire exit door at the bottom of the stairwell, rather than entering the hallway and leaving through the non-emergency door (the one with the keycard access).

Has anyone else wondered why Jason didn't just say that he put a rock in the door and thought that the guy behind him kicked out the rock?

Yes, I def wondered that at one point, but I came to the conclusion that he wanted to distance himself from the rock... he needed the rock guy to be associated with the tampered cameras. He was just the innocent, cigar smoking twig guy!!!

 

[otto]

I was going to re listen because at first this caught me off guard. But then after thinking about it I suppose my friends and family would say I have a "sad side." So, putting it into prespective I don't find anything off putting about this statement. I just jumped the gun with my reply. Probably because I definitely should be sleeping now. :bedtime:

Moo.moo.moo

Michelle would have shown her sad side more often in the last few weeks of her life. When she finally thought she had an objective person to talk with (the psychologist), she cried the entire time. She must have been pretty sad. Her friend probably picked up on that. At the same time, her childhood seems to have been a bit up and down with the acrimonious situation between her parents.

She probably stayed with the marriage longer than she knew she should because she didn't want to admit failure in marriage (I think that divorced people and children of divorce are more prone to making this mistake). Jason probably felt the same way - that the marriage was over but he didn't want to admit failure, and perhaps he chose a different route. Perhaps he chose murder while Michelle chose counselling.

Being pregnant, she would have felt more responsible for the children. We know that she had arranged for her mom to live closer, to help, perhaps to live upstairs parttime and on the beach parttime. Michelle was surrounded by family, and the company she worked for agreed with her proposal to work parttime from home. It didn't sound to me like she was cutting down her hours ... after hearing her supervisor testify. I understood that she would be at home from Tuesday to Thursday, but she would still be working. I think she had almost everything in place to continue living where she was, continue with her job working parttime from home, with her mom helping with the children, and Jason could have walked away or continued doing whatever he was doing. If he walked away, he couldn't have paid for the lifestyle that Michelle would have with the children right away, but he could have walked away. It would have taken him a couple of years, but then he most likely would have landed on his feet financially to do whatever he wanted.

The fact that she was murdered, the millions of dollars insurance policy, the unusual circumstances on the night of the murder ... doesn't look good ... but I'm not sure that there isn't reasonable doubt, reasonable being the operative word.

Is it necessary to disect the parts before considering the whole, or is it enough to look at the whole and consider unproven, suggested/implied parts as too coincidental?

 

[otto]

Yes, I def wondered that at one point, but I came to the conclusion that he wanted to distance himself from the rock... he needed the rock guy to be associated with the tampered cameras. He was just the innocent, cigar smoking twig guy!!!

Maybe he's a third player ... rock guy, camera guy, cigar and twig guy. I think that's the defense theory. One guy came along and propped the door with a rock. There were about 50 guests in the hotel that night, so that's possible. A sports team or conference group could have been at the hotel (although that should have been inroduced by the defense if it happened) and maybe tipped the camera to avoid being caught in their indescretions. If that didn't happen, then perhaps some random teenager unplugged the camera as a prank and the camera was not properly secured after Elmer re-plugged it at 5:35 AM. Perhaps the camera tilted by itself in the next hour (I wouldn't put it past the prosecution to omit footage that may have shown the camera slowly tilting toward the ceiling - given what I've seen so far).

The warmly dressed guy (wearing a couple of shirts) with the cigar put a twig in the emergency door as he exited the hotel on a cold, 20 mph windy night. He hovered by the keycard door, smoked a cigar, read the newspaper and then returned to the emergency door, removed the twig and entered his room unseen. He was not seen again that night, not even in the morning even though we know that he was there in the morning.

 

[Berry]

:floorlaugh:

Yep those pesky "just coincidences."

So we have separate killers (maybe up to 10 or more?) who each left one finger print in the Young house. They all, individually, entered the home at the same time, without needing to use any force to enter the home, and committed the murder. But none of them touched more than one or 2 items the entire time. A couple of them made sure to touch papers laying on the printer in the office. Another one made sure to touch the top of the Tylenol Rapid Blast bottle in CY's room. One of them might have even run the vacuum upstairs, but missed one step (thoughtless). None of these people have ever had their fingerprints put in a LE database, so that's helpful!

Then we have a mystery hotel camera tamperer (and perhaps 2--one who only unplugs cameras and the other who only moves cameras to point at the ceiling), both staying at the same HI as JY the night his wife was murdered. Both were fixated on the same camera, covering the same west exit door that got propped by (two I guess) people. Convenient!

We also have a mystery door propper who likes and uses rocks or landscaping lava rocks to prop a door, staying in the same hotel the night as JY also props the same door but with a twig. I guess that person either knows or approves of the camera-moving mystery peeps.

All these various mystery people were able to keep themselves from being on camera on 11/2/06 - 11/3/06, so to add to the list, they have the power of invisibility!

The mystery HI peeps obviously stole JY's dark pullover, pants, and rounded toe shoes so that those items could not be found ever again. Boo. Not nice!

OMG you are a fantastis fiction writer girl.........bahaha luv it!!!!! WELL SAID!!!!!

 

[otto]

If the rock was removed before Jason could have returned to the hotel, then he must have entered through the keycard door (the glass door on the left in the photos), which was unlocked at 6 AM ... according to some testimony. There was a camera at the door ... that is the same camera that caught him walking down the hallway carrying the newspaper at midnight. To put the twig in the door to smoke a cigar, he had to enter the stairwell rather than exit the glass door, open the emergency door to reach the bush to prop open the door with a twig ... then smoke a cigar and read the newspaper in the cold wind over by the keycard door.

In the moring, according to the theory that he murdered his wife, he had to enter through the glass door, walk past that same camera and enter the stairwell to his right, let the stairwell door close in order to reach the camera, not be seen in any of the 14 seconds required to enter the hotel, enter the stairwell, let the door close behind him, reach for the camera, tilt it and avoid all the other cameras in the hotel ... even though he would have wanted to be seen in the morning at the hotel.

 

[Turnadot]

Yep those pesky "just coincidences."

So we have separate killers (maybe up to 10 or more?) who each left one finger print in the Young house. They all, individually, entered the home at the same time, without needing to use any force to enter the home, and committed the murder. But none of them touched more than one or 2 items the entire time. A couple of them made sure to touch papers laying on the printer in the office. Another one made sure to touch the top of the Tylenol Rapid Blast bottle in CY's room. One of them might have even run the vacuum upstairs, but missed one step (thoughtless). None of these people have ever had their fingerprints put in a LE database, so that's helpful!

Then we have a mystery hotel camera tamperer (and perhaps 2--one who only unplugs cameras and the other who only moves cameras to point at the ceiling), both staying at the same HI as JY the night his wife was murdered. Both were fixated on the same camera, covering the same west exit door that got propped by (two I guess) people. Convenient!

We also have a mystery door propper who likes and uses rocks or landscaping lava rocks to prop a door, staying in the same hotel the night as JY also props the same door but with a twig. I guess that person either knows or approves of the camera-moving mystery peeps.

All these various mystery people were able to keep themselves from being on camera on 11/2/06 - 11/3/06, so to add to the list, they have the power of invisibility!

The mystery HI peeps obviously stole JY's dark pullover, pants, and rounded toe shoes so that those items could not be found ever again. Boo. Not nice!

Pretty much every single post you make is spot on!

IMO

 

[BritsKate]

I recall Linda Fisher's testimony, something to the effect of 'her michelle not being the same girl she had been.' 'Happy, fun-loving, jovial, love of life.' That 'this michelle was laying with her head in her mom's lap, looking broken.' I think had michelle had a bit more time, a few more therapy sessions, she would have been able to think clearly enough to see that 'she wasn't the problem, he was. JMO

RSBBM

I couldn't agree more. I call it a light switch moment. Michelle did not even realize she was in an abusive marriage, in my opinion. She believed what JY reiterated - that the problems in their marriage were her fault, her doing - and primarily sought counseling to work on her.

It was very telling to me then that her counselor is the one who used the words 'verbal abuse'. Whatever Michelle told her therapist that day must have been awful because Michelle would still have been in denial and trying to minimize his actions.

I believe that first session had begun to open her eyes. JY was about to lose his control over her.

Just wanted to add that I believe the cruelest, most sadistic action of JY prior to Michelle's murder was using her likely most painful experience (the sexual assault in college) as a weapon against her. That ain't love. MOO

If he were really a sociopath, I wouldn't expect him to lose his cool and scream at Gracie at the gas station.

IME the only true emotion of someone afflicted with antisocial personality disorder is anger.

My ex is dx'd co-morbid APD/NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and was, when I was married to him, prone to violent rages.

Most Personality Disordered people are prone to anger. Their bottled-up anger is always sudden, raging, frightening and without apparent provocation by an outside agent. It would seem that people suffering from personality disorders are in a CONSTANT state of anger, which is effectively suppressed most of the time. It manifests itself only when the person's defenses are down, incapacitated, or adversely affected by circumstances, inner or external.

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/paranoidnarcissismspectrum.html

 

[Talina]

:goodpost:


I wish more posters would * try* to dispute and/ or explain away all of the above as a whole instead of taking them one by one...bc taking one of them at a time ....sure you can twist it in JY's favor (well, not really in my opinion, but for arguments sake...) but I don't see how one can dispute ALL of it on a whole.

Because it just doesn't make sense .....unless an episode of the Twlight Zone is being pitched. Btw, a BIG thank you for all of your info on this case. You provided a lot of it. Thanks also for taking the time to correct any and all misinformation. That's important, so I appreciate you taking the time to do it.

I hope MY and her family get the justice they so rightfully deserve.

Moo. Moo. Moo.

:goodpost:

 

[Talina]

I'm going to listen to SS's testimony again for this. I do not recall SS saying "MY had a sad side to her long before she met JY." I guess we all have " sad sides" at time or another. Before MY met JY she was a NC State college cheerleader and most people who knew MY testified to her always smiling, happy, fun, enjoyed life, wanted to be married and have kids. I will re listen though.

Moo.moo.moo.

that post you quoted had been bugging me since seeing it last night so I went this morning and relistened to SS testimony. I had a vague recollection of SS's testimony about this but not exactly as it was stated in that post.

I just relistened to SS's testimony and towards the end of her direct examination she talks about how MY was always a happy cheerful person but that she did have some issues that she held in that did make her sad such as still not fully dealing with her parent's divorce, etc., but I honestly did not take it as a deep dark depression sort of thing. I can't say that I know anyone that lets the whole world see their emotions about personal things that have upset them over the years.

SS more describes the deep dark hole that she felt MY had fallen into more so in the last few months she was alive and she mentions that specifically several times on the stand. She even says that she mentioned it to her husband that she just didn't feel like she could reach MY and that MY wouldn't talk to her about what was going on.

SS says in her testimony that she met MY in 1997, moved in with her in 1998, that MY met Jason on her (MYs) birthday either in 2000 or 2001. She thought it was 2000 but it may have been 2001. She wasn't positive. Based on that, they probably became more close friends beginning in 1998. Given that timeline SS and MY were close friends for about 2 yrs, before MY met JY. Since we don't know the exact months involved, I'm estimating an average of 2 yrs.

From that timeline, I'd say it is a stretch to say that SS knew MY for a long time before she met JY. The majority of the time that SS knew MY, MY was in a relationship with JY.

I think SS was more trying to illustrate on the stand how close she and MY were that MY had in the past confided in her about her ups and downs about things but that even with SS it had gotten to the point were MY had just crawled inside herself to hide. (very similar to the way LF described MY to be those last few months).

IMO

 

[Talina]

Maybe he's a third player ... rock guy, camera guy, cigar and twig guy. I think that's the defense theory. One guy came along and propped the door with a rock. There were about 50 guests in the hotel that night, so that's possible. A sports team or conference group could have been at the hotel (although that should have been inroduced by the defense if it happened) and maybe tipped the camera to avoid being caught in their indescretions. If that didn't happen, then perhaps some random teenager unplugged the camera as a prank and the camera was not properly secured after Elmer re-plugged it at 5:35 AM. Perhaps the camera tilted by itself in the next hour (I wouldn't put it past the prosecution to omit footage that may have shown the camera slowly tilting toward the ceiling - given what I've seen so far).

The warmly dressed guy (wearing a couple of shirts) with the cigar put a twig in the emergency door as he exited the hotel on a cold, 20 mph windy night. He hovered by the keycard door, smoked a cigar, read the newspaper and then returned to the emergency door, removed the twig and entered his room unseen. He was not seen again that night, not even in the morning even though we know that he was there in the morning.

The problem with all of this is that a person shouldn't have to go through all this hypothesis to explain away this many different circumstances with this many different possibilities. There are numerous possibilities one can imagine. But at what point does one say..wait a second :waitasec: . How are this many circumstances that we have to explain away with all these different possibilities and explanations. Out of all of this, what is probable versus what is possible?

The whole thing with propping open doors is just not your normal activity when staying in a hotel to begin with. Then the cameras, then the defendants own explanations about cigar versus no friend ever having said they knew of him to smoke cigars, then the clothes that were seen in the camera never to be seen again, well...you now where this is going.

There is just too much. Yes, parsing it you can find multiple possible explanations for each circumstance, but is that reasonable to have to do so for one night, for one person, that just happens to be the same night his wife is murdered?
I don't think it is reasonable.

IMO

 

[Berry]

The problem with all of this is that a person shouldn't have to go through all this hypothesis to explain away this many different circumstances with this many different possibilities. There are numerous possibilities one can imagine. But at what point does one say..wait a second :waitasec: . How are this many circumstances that we have to explain away with all these different possibilities and explanations. Out of all of this, what is probable versus what is possible?

The whole thing with propping open doors is just not your normal activity when staying in a hotel to begin with. Then the cameras, then the defendants own explanations about cigar versus no friend ever having said they knew of him to smoke cigars, then the clothes that were seen in the camera never to be seen again, well...you now where this is going.

There is just too much. Yes, parsing it you can find multiple possible explanations for each circumstance, but is that reasonable to have to do so for one night, for one person, that just happens to be the same night his wife is murdered?
I don't think it is reasonable.

IMO

As a GUILTY stickler, this verdict will be be very telling as the trial has been draining.

Men murder, women murder, but the motive and CE is SO strong here with a husband murdering his wife IMO.

 

[nursebeeme]

move on over to the new thread:
**verdict watch** 3-5-2012 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community