Was JonBenet sexually abused in the strictest sense of this term?

Originally Posted by magnolia
There are also experts that have stated JonBenet was not sexually abused.
You are wrong, it is not inescapable.
Name them. Name the experts that examined the evidence post-mortem and said she was not sexually abused.

Originally Posted by magnolia
JonBenet's own physician that had seen her for many years, even stated that she had never seen any signs of sexual abuse. Do you honestly think Burke would have been allowed to live in the house with Patsy & John for the past ten years, if it had been conclusively proven that JonBenet had been sexually abused. Perhaps you can fill me on the reasons why CPS failed to remove Burke from the home and charges were never filed against the Ramsey's for Child abuse.
As previously stated many times, JBR's pediatrician never did a pelvic exam, so he is not an expert... you can't be considered an expert when you have not even LOOKED at the evidence. JBR's pediatrician was negligent in not connecting the dots between the wetting/soiling issue and the vaginal infections as any emergency room physician would have and taken the appropriate steps to find out if JBR was being sexually abused. JBR's pediatrician HAS to say she wasn't ever sexually abused or reveal his negligence... and he HAS to say it despite the fact that he never did a pelvic exam, and therefore can't be determined as an expert.
 
PagingDrDetect said:
Name them. Name the experts that examined the evidence post-mortem and said she was not sexually abused.

As previously stated many times, JBR's pediatrician never did a pelvic exam, so he is not an expert... you can't be considered an expert when you have not even LOOKED at the evidence. JBR's pediatrician was negligent in not connecting the dots between the wetting/soiling issue and the vaginal infections as any emergency room physician would have and taken the appropriate steps to find out if JBR was being sexually abused. JBR's pediatrician HAS to say she wasn't ever sexually abused or reveal his negligence... and he HAS to say it despite the fact that he never did a pelvic exam, and therefore can't be determined as an expert.

I am going to tell you an old story that I have posted before. When my daughter was first sick as a child I requested my medical records from my small town doctor.Emory University Hospital was looking at all history to get a better handle on diagnosis and cause( more of a research and teaching hospital).

I found out that I had gonorrhea as a baby. I was ten months old when the the doctor talks about all treatment etc.There was never an investigation by anyone it remained private confidential info until I requested it as an adult with a totally different reason for asking.I was floored. My mother insists she didn't have gonorrhea and my other siblings were somewhat aware but it was always a hush, hush thing.When I speak about dysfunction it is my personal experiences with it and I recognize it all the time. There is a pattern.

Later, I was abused by an uncle.This is also not acknowledged because it was "a little bit of abuse" . There is no little bit of abuse for a child and there is no little bit of abuse for an adult.
 
Leigh :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

You make very excellent logical points. I totally agree with everything you have said. It all boils down to if there was positive proof of these sexual allegations by one of the Ramseys, then they or he would have already been indicted, tried and convicted. The only undisputed fact is that JonBenet was murdered and her body discovered in the family home. EVERYTHING else is speculation and can be supported or disputed by the so-called "experts" on either side.
 
concernedperson said:
I am going to tell you an old story that I have posted before. When my daughter was first sick as a child I requested my medical records from my small town doctor.Emory University Hospital was looking at all history to get a better handle on diagnosis and cause( more of a research and teaching hospital).

I found out that I had gonorrhea as a baby. I was ten months old when the the doctor talks about all treatment etc.There was never an investigation by anyone it remained private confidential info until I requested it as an adult with a totally different reason for asking.I was floored. My mother insists she didn't have gonorrhea and my other siblings were somewhat aware but it was always a hush, hush thing.When I speak about dysfunction it is my personal experiences with it and I recognize it all the time. There is a pattern.

Later, I was abused by an uncle.This is also not acknowledged because it was "a little bit of abuse" . There is no little bit of abuse for a child and there is no little bit of abuse for an adult.
Gosh CP, that must have been a horrible shock for you and I'm sorry too about later subsequent abuse. So you are all to aware at how easily abuse can happen. Thank you for sharing your story, that was brave of you.
 
leighl said:
Just because someone asks a question, poses alternative theories for the interpretation of data, or otherwise challenges what someone else has to say, this does not give someone else (many of the posters above included) the right to make a personal attack, e.g., "This is a dysfunctional mind trying to absolve the perp."

I was simply asking a question, that is the purpose of this forum, to discuss, examine the evidence, speculate, challenge ideas, and ultimately find justice for JonBenet in the process. There is no need to make derogatory statements toward or value judgements about someone you don't even know just because they asked a question or posed a point of view contrary to that which you believe.

And to be clear, little to none of the information presented above is fact, no matter how many web links, book citations, so called expert witnesses, etc. you include in your presentation of information as "back up." Quoting someone else does not make your opinion better than another, no matter how many people there are that may agree with you. Of course the physicians and expert witnesses cited above concluded that JonBenet was sexually abused, they were hired to do so in support of the prosecution. The opposing side could probably find just as many expert witnesses to interpret the data with an equally convincing, alternative theory.

Unless one of you guys were the perpetrator (I do not think any of you were, I am not pointing fingers, just making a point), witnessed the alleged abuse, or heard first hand from JonBenet or the perpetrator, then none of you know for certain that she was sexually abused.
First of all, I never personally attacked you, that's against TOS, and had I, my post or myself would no longer be here. I attacked your idea- which I find ridiculous. It is a very personal topic for me as well as concernedperson. I have also been a molestation victim, and I know enough to recognize the signs of a girl who's been molested. A six-year-old who still has urinary and defecation accidents while awake is a classic sign of abuse. Even if you don't believe she was chronically abused, the broken paintbrush found in her vagina qualifies as sexual abuse in the "strictest terms". You are just trying to absolve the perp/spin things by saying that JB's hymen was broken by horseback riding, bike riding, vaginal applicators,etc.... You have no proof that the physicians- 6 of them-were hired by the prosecution. There has been no trial, why would the D.A.'s office be hiring expert witnesses??? Your thread, opening post was highly provocative. If you don't like our emotions (smilies), well, it's your choice to read here.
 
PagingDrDetect said:
Name them. Name the experts that examined the evidence post-mortem and said she was not sexually abused.

As previously stated many times, JBR's pediatrician never did a pelvic exam, so he is not an expert... you can't be considered an expert when you have not even LOOKED at the evidence. JBR's pediatrician was negligent in not connecting the dots between the wetting/soiling issue and the vaginal infections as any emergency room physician would have and taken the appropriate steps to find out if JBR was being sexually abused. JBR's pediatrician HAS to say she wasn't ever sexually abused or reveal his negligence... and he HAS to say it despite the fact that he never did a pelvic exam, and therefore can't be determined as an expert.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I began teaching elementary school in 1978 and taught until 1994. I taught 5 and 6 year olds for 4 of those 16 years. It was common knowledge that a child of this age who soiled, wet and additionally had chronic vaginal, kidney, and/or bladder infections exhibited signs of probable sexual abuse, which if we, as the child's teacher ignored or left unreported could not only cost us our teaching position, it could also lead to prosecution.

:furious: How sad to imagine JonBenet's pediatrician of some 27 visits, fellow church parishioner, and family friend actually doing so much less than would be expected of a JonBenet's classroom teacher. He should be prosecuted for negligence which lead to the death of JonBenet Ramsey, in my humble opinion! :furious:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer/primer1_fam.html
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][size=-1]Dr. Francesco and Penni Beuf[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-2]"JonBen�t's pediatrician and his wife, who were also Ramsey friends and fellow parishioners of St. John's Episcopal Church. Dr. Beuf has stated that he saw no sign of sexual or other abuse in any of the 27 visits JonBen�t made to his office in the 3 years prior to her death. He prescribed tranquilizers to Patsy the day of the murder. Anything the Ramseys told Dr. Beuf might be considered privileged because of his physician status.[/size][/font] "
 
leighl said:
I am a fence sitter, I do not believe or purport to know for certain who murdered JonBenet, but I do understand how one's opinion that JonBenet was sexually abused prior to her death could sway someone to believe that she was killed by someone she knew/someone in her family. This reasoning seems plausible, i.e., for someone to sexually abuse JonBenet over the long term they would have to have been in close proximity and had access to her.


PS. Yes, I am aware of the evidence that JonBenet had fibers on her genital area from JR's clothing, but as I have posted before, this information alone does not mean she was sexually abused. She lived in the same house and shared the same washer/dryer as her family, her father could have helped her get out of the bath and thus transfered fibers, or any other plausible, non-sexual way.
The fibers JB had in her vaginal area were from the shirt John was wearing that night. No one has stated that JB had a bath that night, nor that John gave her one wearing that shirt. The panties found on JB were brand-new, straight out of the package, never been washed. There is no other plausible, non-sexual way for those fibers to end up in her genital area.
 
Please direct me to something that supports the idea that JonBenet had repeated incidents of soiling (defacating) in her pants during the day.

I have read this on here numerous times by RDI's stating that this supports the claims of her being sexually abused. I have never read this anywhere else, so I'm just wondering if ya'll could provide a link to documentation that supports this. Not a quote from a book written to make money, not a message on a forum. Something substantial, please.
 
LinasK said:
The fibers JB had in her vaginal area were from the shirt John was wearing that night. No one has stated that JB had a bath that night, nor that John gave her one wearing that shirt. The panties found on JB were brand-new, straight out of the package, never been washed. There is no other plausible, non-sexual way for those fibers to end up in her genital area.
The fact that she didn't have a bath would keep any existing fibers on her.Didn't Patsy help JBR on with her longjohns at bed or something like that? PR touched JR then PR touched JBR.PR could have actually had the fibers on her fingers from touching JR very easily.

ETA: for that matter, JBR could have touched JR's shirt and then touched herself. That is certainly a nonsexual explanation and no bath would preserve the fibers on her.
 
leighl said:
Just because someone asks a question, poses alternative theories for the interpretation of data, or otherwise challenges what someone else has to say, this does not give someone else (many of the posters above included) the right to make a personal attack, e.g., "This is a dysfunctional mind trying to absolve the perp."

I was simply asking a question, that is the purpose of this forum, to discuss, examine the evidence, speculate, challenge ideas, and ultimately find justice for JonBenet in the process. There is no need to make derogatory statements toward or value judgements about someone you don't even know just because they asked a question or posed a point of view contrary to that which you believe.

And to be clear, little to none of the information presented above is fact, no matter how many web links, book citations, so called expert witnesses, etc. you include in your presentation of information as "back up." Quoting someone else does not make your opinion better than another, no matter how many people there are that may agree with you. Of course the physicians and expert witnesses cited above concluded that JonBenet was sexually abused, they were hired to do so in support of the prosecution. The opposing side could probably find just as many expert witnesses to interpret the data with an equally convincing, alternative theory.

Unless one of you guys were the perpetrator (I do not think any of you were, I am not pointing fingers, just making a point), witnessed the alleged abuse, or heard first hand from JonBenet or the perpetrator, then none of you know for certain that she was sexually abused. You are simply attaching a theory to a series of evidence, a partial list of evidence at that -- not all information has been released/leaked to the general public, and even then the crime scene was contaminated so that even the investigators do not have a complete picture of what happened.

All we have to work with in this case is the evidence we are allowed to view. No one here, no matter how long they have been a member on this or another forum, or how much they have read about this case, etc. has some sort of divine right or superior insight on this case. The evidence is neither true nor false, it simply is. We all make interpretations as to what the data means, and only these interpretative theories may later be regarded as true or false.

One final note, the insinuation that discussing a point with someone who does not necessarliy agree with you, or even someone that perhaps agrees but examines other points of view to find something that may have been previously overlooked, is like hitting your head against a brick wall (i.e., :banghead: ) seems to totally conflict the purpose of being part of a forum. Why get so upset to the point of beligerance (on this point, I am not just referring to the replies in this particular post, I have seen it occur in other posts) if someone doesn't agree with you? If you only wanted to be part of a "forum" where people agree with you and constantly pat you on the back for your like-minded opinions, then perhaps you should start up a forum called, e.g., "the only post here if you believe x theory forum." It seems to me that constantly putting forth the same theory, repeating what has already been theorized over and over, despite not solving the case or moving forward, is the behaviour more compatible with hitting one's head against a wall. If we keep trying to interpret the data and solve this case with the same old theories presented over and over in the past ten years, then we will never move forward/find justice for JonBenet: If the key doesn't fit, restart and make a new one. If people would put half the time and energy they have spent getting angry, making rude, belittling remarks, etc. toward opposing views on to the more important task of solving this case, regardless of whether or not the outcome is compatible with one's personal views and prejudices, perhaps this case would have already been solved. So, for the sake of moving forward on JonBenet's behalf, could we all put aside our egos long enough to make a scientific analysis and examination of the data, rather than slapping opposing view points down. It is going to take all of us together, each with our unique experiences and points of view, to solve this.
Leighl,
You know, this is, without a doubt, the best post I have EVER read on this forum!!!!!! Girl....(or guy), you are SOOOO right on target here with everything you have stated!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: You have a way with words, for sure, and your ability to state your opinion so eloquently is highly regarded.
 
oceanblueeyes said:
As I have read the speculation and different opinions about JBRs possible sexual abuse I have grown very uneasy for mothers and fathers of little girls. If this is the assumptions being made when the reason could be equally benign, parents are in grave jeopardy, imo.

There are so many reasons why things appear the way they do that has nothing to do with sexual abuse.

Little girls have been known to erode their hymen just by repetitively riding their bikes or horses. They even fall sometimes on the bike seat and then some poor little girls are just prone to have infections that when healed have left scar tissue especially if it is a reoccurring problem.

I see nothing that shows me JB has ever been previously touched before the night she was murdered.

Imo, we are feeding off of hysteria and sensationalism and that is not the way to go.

Ocean
\

How much bike and horse back riding can a 6 year old child, living in Colorado where it's cold during the winter, have done? I didn't learn to ride my bike until I was 6 and ditto for both my girls. I know some kids learn to ride earlier, but I can't believe she could have done enough riding on bike or horseback by the age of 6 to cause the results found in the pathologists report.
 
s_finch said:
\

How much bike and horse back riding can a 6 year old child, living in Colorado where it's cold during the winter, have done? I didn't learn to ride my bike until I was 6 and ditto for both my girls. I know some kids learn to ride earlier, but I can't believe she could have done enough riding on bike or horseback by the age of 6 to cause the results found in the pathologists report.

And for those looking for innocent explanations, JonBenet had just received a bike as a christmas present on the 25th.


.
 
"Please direct me to something that supports the idea that JonBenet had repeated incidents of soiling (defacating) in her pants during the day."

Working on it, julianne! I really am!
 
julianne said:
Please direct me to something that supports the idea that JonBenet had repeated incidents of soiling (defacating) in her pants during the day.

I have read this on here numerous times by RDI's stating that this supports the claims of her being sexually abused. I have never read this anywhere else, so I'm just wondering if ya'll could provide a link to documentation that supports this. Not a quote from a book written to make money, not a message on a forum. Something substantial, please.
I am looking for a link for you on this, but I will say that - off the top of my head - the Ramsey's housekeeper said that several times she saw JBR's panties soaking in water in the sink. The only reason you soak little girls panties in the sink is if they have poop or blood in them. And the housekeepers saw this more than once. When I read this statement of the housekeeper, I remember thinking that it backed up what I had read regarding her soiling issues...still looking for those links.

I also know that Nedra (JBR's mother) talked about this when she was interview by Steve Thomas - JBR's dirtying herself, she called it...again, looking for links.
 
UKGuy said:
And for those looking for innocent explanations, JonBenet had just received a bike as a christmas present on the 25th.


.
JonBenet knew how to ride a bike. I don't know for how long, but the Ramsey's both reported that many times JonBenet and Burke rode their bikes together in the alley behind the house. I just read that last night.

My oldest learned to ride a bike at 5. My younger two learned at the age of 4 1/2 yrs - I think having an older sibling who knows how to ride bikes kinda furthers the progress of the younger one along.

I would venture to say that within the first 6 months of riding, my kids put in many many hours and many miles in total. Once a kid learns how to ride, it seems that's all they want to do, until something better comes along, lol.
 
Is there any incidence where JonBenets parents stated she frequently had soiling accidents? I know it's been stated that the housekeeper thought she saw her panties soaking in the sink at times, and someone said Steve Thomas said that in his book, but did her parents ever state this?
 
julianne said:
Is there any incidence where JonBenets parents stated she frequently had soiling accidents? I know it's been stated that the housekeeper thought she saw her panties soaking in the sink at times, and someone said Steve Thomas said that in his book, but did her parents ever state this?
Patsy states here that it could very well be the case that she would not notice a pair of soiled pants lying on the floor of JBR's bedroom.
I think most parents who are not used to their child soiling their pants would immediately notice a pair of soiled pants on the floor.

8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing those[tumble edit: the soiled pants] on the

9 floor that night when you got the --

10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I

13 don't know.

14 TOM HANEY: Could have.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.

16 Don't know for sure.
 
tumble said:
Patsy states here that it could very well be the case that she would not notice a pair of soiled pants lying on the floor of JBR's bedroom.
I think most parents who are not used to their child soiling their pants would immediately notice a pair of soiled pants on the floor.

8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing those[tumble edit: the soiled pants] on the

9 floor that night when you got the --

10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I

13 don't know.

14 TOM HANEY: Could have.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.

16 Don't know for sure.

I agree with your statement that a parent would notice a pair of soiled pants if their child didn't normally soil their pants i.e., it would be unusual, and would jump out at them. however, I wouldn't use the fact that Patsy states she didn't notice them as some sort of telling evidence that it must have been a usual occurrence, and that it was a frequent happening and that is the reason she didn't notice them. I would say that by her saying she didn't notice them, it could very well mean that she really didn't.

Soiled pants from my child would be noticed by me--only if I looked in the place where the soiled pants were placed.

In the first line, where Detective Haney is asking "Do you recall seeing those...", you edited out what he said next. Did you edit for space?
 

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