Was the lawsuit really a motive for allegedly framing Avery?

[Tawny]

Ok, but with less hyperbole, the idea is that the police killed TH to accomplish this coup?

For some.

For others, the idea is that police thought they had the right guy and so chose to strengthen their case against him so as to not let him slip through the cracks. Still others believe they didn't care WHO killed her, so long as SA went down for it.

 

[ArianeEmory]

For some.

For others, the idea is that police thought they had the right guy and so chose to strengthen their case against him so as to not let him slip through the cracks. Still others believe they didn't care WHO killed her, so long as SA went down for it.

I think part of what bothers me is that there seem to be a LOT of people who don't care who killed her, and she just becomes an inconvenient footnote in the tide of Internet outrage.

 

[Tawny]

I think part of what bothers me is that there seem to be a LOT of people who don't care who killed her, and she just becomes an inconvenient footnote in the tide of Internet outrage.

Feel free to count me out of that number, because I've personally stated numerous times that the entire reason I follow this is because I feel Teresa deserves real justice. If SA didn't do this, someone did and that person is walking free. If he DID do this, then her family deserves to know what REALLY happened, not some gory horror story concocted by that psychopath Kratz.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Feel free to count me out of that number, because I've personally stated numerous times that the entire reason I follow this is because I feel Teresa deserves real justice. If SA didn't do this, someone did and that person is walking free. If he DID do this, then her family deserves to know what REALLY happened, not some gory horror story concocted by that psychopath Kratz.

Agreed on those counts. I only got into this tangent because I find it a little disingenuous when the "follow the money" thesis is made to sound like SA was going to be cashing the check the following week.

 

[Sinsaint]

I think part of what bothers me is that there seem to be a LOT of people who don't care who killed her, and she just becomes an inconvenient footnote in the tide of Internet outrage.

You couldn't be more wrong. I can't speak for everyone but when I think of this case of imagine a vibrant young woman who had her whole life ahead of her, shot and then burned. I have zero doubt Brendan was not involved. He is just as much a victim as Teresa. Avery is another matter. I'm on the fence but lean towards not guilty. Innocent? I'm not sure but it's certainly worth looking in to.

No matter what, Teresa's family and friends deserve the truth. Most people accept Dassey's version as a convenient truth but it's clear it's a myth. The narrative against Avery at his trial was nothing but the same. Terera and her family deserve to know the truth. Not some snuff *advertiser censored* narrative the prosecution laid out to piss people off.

 

[ArianeEmory]

You've lost me.

I was moving back out to the big-picture reason of why I ended up in this thread at all, the "payout as motive" stuff. Which is my way of saying I'm not being a troll or trying to irritate anyone, I just seem to be having a gut reaction that is different from the mainstream.

Edited to add: just a side note to demonstrate that I'm not the type to assume that if someone is in jail, they did it:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247315

 

[missy1974]

I think part of what bothers me is that there seem to be a LOT of people who don't care who killed her, and she just becomes an inconvenient footnote in the tide of Internet outrage.

I don't think that's true. I think some here believe it was SA absolutely... don't care if there was tampering or bias or anything, he is where he belongs, period. And I would have to say the majority are unsure. And if I'm unsure, if SA isn't the real killer, than who is?

As for TH being a footnote, I agree, but I think that started long before the documentary. I think it started right away with news conferences and the name Avery attached, and then the March Kratz news conference..... who was he thinking of when he detailed to the world his far-fetched, no evidence based theory.... it definitely wasn't Teresa or her family. And now after being rejected by SA to fess up and admit it and do a book with him.... he settles on writing a book "for Teresa". If I was her family, I would be running far far away from him (and wouldn't give him my cell number)

I'm not sure what could be done to change that now. Maybe, just maybe, someone will do a show that focuses on her and her too-short life and ignoring the trial, etc. I know I would watch it!

 

[BigCityAccountant]

It didn't prevent him from following through on his suit. As of October 30th he was a sympathetic, wrongly accused man who lost 18 years of his life. By November 9th he was a wicked, evil, vile human being who murdered (presumably) a beautiful young woman. Any chance of a multi-million dollar judgement was gone. In light of his current situation at that time, no jury was going to find him sympathetic enough to award him what he was entitled to.

He ended up settling the suit because he was desperate to get the money he needed to hire lawyers to defend him in his current criminal case. Sitting around waiting for a few years for a fair settlement offer or civil trial wasn't an option for him at that point.

But it might have worked the opposite too...just think of him coming into court in prison attire and the jury at the civil trial saying...wow...LE really has it out for this guy...they locked him up again..they just have it out for this guy...lets make it right for him.

 

[Tawny]

But it might have worked the opposite too...just think of him coming into court in prison attire and the jury at the civil trial saying...wow...LE really has it out for this guy...they locked him up again..they just have it out for this guy...lets make it right for him.

Psychologically, when humans see another human incarcerated, they lean toward "criminal". It's a groupthink mentality.

 

[pittie_mcclure]

Feel free to count me out of that number, because I've personally stated numerous times that the entire reason I follow this is because I feel Teresa deserves real justice. If SA didn't do this, someone did and that person is walking free. If he DID do this, then her family deserves to know what REALLY happened, not some gory horror story concocted by that psychopath Kratz.

Exactly. Well said. I can't get Theresa's smiling face out of my head. And I can't get her mom's face out of my head either and what she must have felt losing her daughter, and then having to listen to Kratz describe a horrific, detailed death that is not supported by the evidence because it came from a completely unreliable source. It breaks my heart and that's why I feel so invested in this case. This should have been their best work, not only for TH, but also because of the circumstances and what was at stake.

 

[rho]

why if LE and co was so sure that SA was so guilty be so shady its whats got me puzzled

RIP Teresa

 

[Jaiddie]

The glaring part for me is the timing. Vogel and Koureck (sp) were scheduled to be deposed on 11/10 and 11/15, and TH is reported missing on 11/3, her vehicle found on 11/05. Lo, and behold, SA is arrested on 11/09 and those depositions were canceled that same day. Just seems mighty convenient to me on the timing of when SA decided to add murder to his criminal list. Just in time to get the state and individuals off the hook, I guess.

 

[missy1974]

The glaring part for me is the timing. Vogel and Koureck (sp) were scheduled to be deposed on 11/10 and 11/15, and TH is reported missing on 11/3, her vehicle found on 11/05. Lo, and behold, SA is arrested on 11/09 and those depositions were canceled that same day. Just seems mighty convenient to me on the timing of when SA decided to add murder to his criminal list. Just in time to get the state and individuals off the hook, I guess.

And IIRC they were trying to claim some sort of privilege, like lawyer/client (which makes no sense lol), and were hoping to not have to answer questions, and that was denied right around that time too. Which meant they had to answer all questions whether they liked it or not. I wish I still had all of those documents I read well over a month ago, so hard to search documents now lol

 

[Alison]

To me it was not so much about the money but people's reputation and the hit to their egos.
What scares me is when Avery was wrongfully convicted and the real perpetrator was still on the loose, he assaulted two more women. TWO women who never had to be victims of sexual assault but wrongdoings and misdeeds by those responsible for seeking justice allowed for this to happen.
So if this is another case of wrongdoing there is a killer out there, who can or has done this again.

 

[TheDuchess]

I honestly cannot believe how many people are so willing to shrug off the lawsuit and its relevance to this case. We are to believe that the very people who set SA in the first place and are now being deposed in a $36 million lawsuit, have absolutely no reason to at the very least have motivation to have SA convicted this time? Yet we are also to believe that a man who was involved in this lawsuit he would have likely won and settled for at least a million or several million, and was also about to receive a $400K additional settlement from the state of Wisconsin, and a pair of documentarians were following his story along with the press, would have chosen a mid day Monday on his wide open lot, where family, children, school bus drivers, customers, etc...were all around to choose to murder an innocent woman because he had a vendetta against women in general and felt invincible. MAKES. NO. SENSE.

I further have a serious problem with the fact that people can so easily shrug off the fact that this same man was railroaded by the very same people that have found all the key evidence in this case. If a normal trial needs proof beyond a reasonable doubt, this trial, in particular, deserved to expect the greatest level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in the history of all trials! I mean, seriously, has this ever happened to a wrongfully convicted person in the midst of a huge lawsuit after being exonerated after 18 years in prison? Does anyone recall such a case? I don't. Nothing close to this. And yet people are so quick to shrug off the notion that there might just be some reasonable doubt that he could have possibly been framed???

NO - I am sorry Manitowoc County. You DO need to prove to me that you didn't plant evidence. This isn't a normal trial. You screwed this guy over once before, so the burden of proof that these "highly respected law enforcement officers" did not do something that helped this investigation along. You lost that right when you wrongfully convicted him the first time. I am tired of people viewing this case as if it happened in a vacuum. And these same people who disregard the prior actions of the MCSD, Ken Kratz, Len Kucharsky and his blue-ribbon crying investigator, and 2 detectives who took advantage of a learning impaired child, are the same people who find no problem throwing alleged priors, jailhouse informants and that gosh darned cat from 30 years ago into the mix!

I. JUST. DON'T. GET. IT.

Sure, SA may well be guilty. I do not know. I am 99.9% sure BD is innocent. But for anyone to believe that these 2 men have been proven to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt after being proven beyond a reasonable doubt in the first case with the same people, is, in my opinion, a case of willful blindness.

 

[missy1974]

I. JUST. DON'T. GET. IT.

RSBM

I agree!

 

[missy1974]

<modsnip>

I started reading this and following some links earlier... in case anyone is interested, the search warrants are here...
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Search-Warrant-File.pdf

I was interested in the one that was referenced in that post about Pagel signing it the evening of November 5th (faxed time stamp says 8:59pm), it took me awhile but it's on page 30. I believe the warrant is for the 2 vehicles that were in Crivitz, but the poster on reddit mentions that it's 9pm on the 5th and they are saying that TH is a victim of a crime included but not limited to, homicide, sexual assualt, kidnapping, false imprisonment, and theft.

At this time, 8:59pm.... the RAV4 had not even been opened up yet. I also found it interesting that they were looking for her property belongings, photography equipment, camera's, film, storage devices in the other vehicles (the grand am and the flat bed truck... the search warrant page 28)

 

[Madeleine74]

The search warrants were signed by a judge. It was all legally done.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Search-Warrant-File.pdf

The various paragraphs with dates starting on page 12 lays out the 'whys' and 'what fors' and probable cause. By the afternoon of Nov 5, 2005, TH's SUV had been found, partially obscured. A cadaver dog had 'hit' on that vehicle. Not a coinky-dink. LE knew they were dealing with a crime and likely a homicide.

<modsnip>

 

[Justiceseeker35]

<modsnip>

I started reading this and following some links earlier... in case anyone is interested, the search warrants are here...
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Search-Warrant-File.pdf

I was interested in the one that was referenced in that post about Pagel signing it the evening of November 5th (faxed time stamp says 8:59pm), it took me awhile but it's on page 30. I believe the warrant is for the 2 vehicles that were in Crivitz, but the poster on reddit mentions that it's 9pm on the 5th and they are saying that TH is a victim of a crime included but not limited to, homicide, sexual assualt, kidnapping, false imprisonment, and theft.

At this time, 8:59pm.... the RAV4 had not even been opened up yet. I also found it interesting that they were looking for her property belongings, photography equipment, camera's, film, storage devices in the other vehicles (the grand am and the flat bed truck... the search warrant page 28)

There's some discussion that LE killed TH using her as a sacrificial lamb to halt the civil suit depositions. Now if TH hadn't come along what would they have done?? KP stated in the docu that it would have been easier to kill SA than to frame him. Almost as though it was something considered by them. Now... I have to wonder if that was plan B? There was a nov 10th deadline and then it would be former sheriff TK having to give a depo. But the two most important depos were cancelled.

 

[Madeleine74]

There's some discussion that LE killed TH using her as a sacrificial lamb to halt the civil suit depositions.

That's such a laughably bad theory floating around; that it ever managed to gain legs is a sad commentary on the gullibility of the public.