Welcome our Chemist to Websleuths/Syringe in bottle and traces of chloroform #3

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Resp snipped from JWG, previous thread:

Cyclododecane - Wax like bonding agent
Butylated Hydroxytoluene - BHT - antioxident food additive (preservative)
1-Tridecanol - Broad usage as a solvent
Testosterone Propionate - Anabolic steroid
1-Tetradecanol - Common in cosmetics as an emollient
Phenol, 2,2'-methylenebis[6-(1,1-dimethylethyl)-4-methyl - Sometimes used in fungicides
1-Tridecene - Possible biopesticide - known to attract beetles
9-Hexadecenoic acid, phenylmethyl ester, (Z)- - Some pesticide use
3,5-di-tert-Butyl-4-hydroxybenzaldehyde - Chemical intermediate for manufacture of pesticides
Eicosane - Used in the creation and/or manufacturing of fragrance and flavor concentrates
Dodecanoic acid, phenylmethyl ester - Anti-microbial
Decanoic acid, phenylmethyl ester - Sometimes used in injectible pharmaceuticals
3 Cyclohexene-1-methanol, .alpha.,.alpha.4-trimethyl- - Used in manufacture of flavors and fragrances
Pyrene - Used to make dyes and dye precursors
Octacosane - Pesticide use
2,6-di-tert-Butyl-4-(dimethylaminomethyl)pheonol - Stabilizer

Looks like preservatives, emulsifiers, carrier agents for the testosterone.

You all are so waaaaay above my level of knowledge and brain power that it humbles me. But I'm worried that so much effort has been put into trying to discern what was in the syringe because (am I right in thinking?) that the contents are likely polluted with whatever the contents were of the Gatorade bottle (including the original Gatorade recipe). I'm just worried that you all are straining to reach a conclusion that at this point might not be all that important since the relevance of the chloroform has been erased. I'm sure curious about what it might have been but I don't, at this point, hold it such a high priority anymore. Do you all?

 

[treeseeker]

As it stands now, I don't think the syringe or gatorade bottle is connected to Caylee. I would like to know if they trace the syringe - I might change my mind.

In the mean time, its a distraction from the bug report - eww.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Welcome Dogmom as our new resident chemist,

And my first question to you is What is the multiplicative inverse of a negative seven?
OMG that isn't chemistry sorry lol
I am so glad to have a chemist to be able to answer our questions, because chemistry is as understandable to me as the saying "the higher the ducks fly, the much"

I hope you have many happy days of sleuthing in your future

 

[nurselady]

You go girl.welcome

 

[magic-cat]

Welcome Dogmom as our new resident chemist,

And my first question to you is What is the multiplicative inverse of a negative seven?
OMG that isn't chemistry sorry lol
I am so glad to have a chemist to be able to answer our questions, because chemistry is as understandable to me as the saying "the higher the ducks fly, the much"

I hope you have many happy days of sleuthing in your future

OT:
That's funny right there. It made me laugh first thing-thanks! Reminded me that my daughter told me yesterday that she was pretty sure on her French test she had written "I have a date with a duck!"...so was not overly confident of her test grade...

Dogmom, where oh where have you gone?:waitasec:

 

[QuietStorm]

Wow, what happened to this thread? Where'd everyone go? Poured my heart out, researched the devil out of my soul, and I'm all alone. Alas, alas. Guess I better go find out.

 

[wenwe4]

You all are so waaaaay above my level of knowledge and brain power that it humbles me. But I'm worried that so much effort has been put into trying to discern what was in the syringe because (am I right in thinking?) that the contents are likely polluted with whatever the contents were of the Gatorade bottle (including the original Gatorade recipe). I'm just worried that you all are straining to reach a conclusion that at this point might not be all that important since the relevance of the chloroform has been erased. I'm sure curious about what it might have been but I don't, at this point, hold it such a high priority anymore. Do you all?

You make a good point, for instance - I kept getting stuck on the flavor/scent compounds - but that could easily be the original Gatorade receipe. I do remember on the pics of the duct tape there were pin holes on one of the pieces. A poster (I don't remember who) pointed it out and I immediately fired off that I thought it might be an artifact of the forensics guys mounting the tape for examination. However, after thinking back - I think there may only be one piece of tape with pin holes. It's curious to me now that there were pin holes and a syringe with a needle found within very close proximity of the baby's body.

 

[notthatsmart]

DogMom2JoeAndWillie, Your kindness and mild manner is what caught my attention with you. When you examine and report, sometimes the truth hurts, but your careful attention to peoples feelings makes it hurt less. Thank you so much for helping us.

 

[seagull65]

... I'm worried that so much effort has been put into trying to discern what was in the syringe because (am I right in thinking?) that the contents are likely polluted with whatever the contents were of the Gatorade bottle (including the original Gatorade recipe). I'm just worried that you all are straining to reach a conclusion that at this point might not be all that important since the relevance of the chloroform has been erased. I'm sure curious about what it might have been but I don't, at this point, hold it such a high priority anymore. Do you all?

I'm still very interested in the chemistry of what was in the syringe/syringe bag/gatorade bottle though, just because I think the gatorade bottle's being in a Disney bag right near Caylee is very curious and that it could link to the murderer somehow. (Not that Caylee was necessarily injected with anything. I think she was probably killed in a much simpler way. For some reason I imagine a person who would tape her up like that would probably just be in the process of an assault and might just strangle her when finished, something along those lines. But that's only a gut feeling.)

But I do also have the feeling some simpler evidence may be right there having to do with these items (gatorade bottle, syringe, etc) that may still jump out at us if we continue hashing over the details about these items!

I do hope the syringe might be traced somehow.

I can see how someone buying steroid for illicit use might buy it from a connection at the gym, and that the syringe might logically be concealed in a gatorade bottle like that since a gatorade bottle wouldn't seem unusual at a gym and the drink can be a bright blue color that you could conceal something in. But why would the drink be replaced with cleaning solution, cleaning solution could be the same color as gatorade, but it's more expensive and why bother....And why then dump it in THAT spot? Inside a Disney bag. Or if someone just threw their syringe away that way at their house so other housemembers wouldn't know they were using, again, why cleaning solution instead of plain old gatorade in the bottle. Just mulling these things over still!

Just to confirm, did the gatorade bottle have traces of pesticides in it?

If so, was this bottle then also used as a spittoon (i.e. the pesticides being from the tobacco.)

Also, just curious, are steroids ever used as an ingredient along with other drugs in a recreational drug cocktail?

Thanks for info

And thanks DogMom! I didn't know you were a chemistry type. Thanks to you and all our brainiacs who have been helping us so much on this subject and so many others!

 

[cecybeans]

I'm still very interested in the chemistry of what was in the syringe/syringe bag/gatorade bottle though, just because I think the gatorade bottle's being in a Disney bag right near Caylee is very curious and that it could link to the murderer somehow. (Not that Caylee was necessarily injected with anything. I think she was probably killed in a much simpler way. For some reason I imagine a person who would tape her up like that would probably just be in the process of an assault and might just strangle her when finished, something along those lines. But that's only a gut feeling.)

But I do also have the feeling some simpler evidence may be right there having to do with these items (gatorade bottle, syringe, etc) that may still jump out at us if we continue hashing over the details about these items!

I do hope the syringe might be traced somehow.

I can see how someone buying steroid for illicit use might buy it from a connection at the gym, and that the syringe might logically be concealed in a gatorade bottle like that since a gatorade bottle wouldn't seem unusual at a gym and the drink can be a bright blue color that you could conceal something in. But why would the drink be replaced with cleaning solution, cleaning solution could be the same color as gatorade, but it's more expensive and why bother....And why then dump it in THAT spot? Inside a Disney bag. Or if someone just threw their syringe away that way at their house so other housemembers wouldn't know they were using, again, why cleaning solution instead of plain old gatorade in the bottle. Just mulling these things over still!

Just to confirm, did the gatorade bottle have traces of pesticides in it?

If so, was this bottle then also used as a spittoon (i.e. the pesticides being from the tobacco.)

Also, just curious, are steroids ever used as an ingredient along with other drugs in a recreational drug cocktail?

Thanks for info

And thanks DogMom! I didn't know you were a chemistry type. Thanks to you and all our brainiacs who have been helping us so much on this subject and so many others!

I agree that is is more than odd that a World of Disney bag would house the syringe and the bottle and be so close to Caylee's remains. I think we might keep in mind that the Gatorade bottle and syringe might have been placed there later, perhaps to frame someone else. And at that point it might make sense that cleaning solvents would be present.

 

[Tricia]

OK, I don't know where she went. LOL. I'll try and call her.

I'd better warn you guys about something. You know the movie Forrest Gump?Forrest always manages to be right in the middle of the exciting times of the day through no effort of his own.

I am the Forrest Gump of anything weird, crazy, and unbelievable. These three things follow me around and make life impossible sometimes through no fault of my own. It just happens.

You are getting this warning because I am afraid I will call Dogmom's home and be told she decided to leave the U.S. to study the effects of Bot-flies on the Madagascar Monkey.

Really, it could happen.

 

[notthatsmart]

I'm still very interested in the chemistry of what was in the syringe/syringe bag/gatorade bottle though, just because I think the gatorade bottle's being in a Disney bag right near Caylee is very curious and that it could link to the murderer somehow. (Not that Caylee was necessarily injected with anything. I think she was probably killed in a much simpler way. For some reason I imagine a person who would tape her up like that would probably just be in the process of an assault and might just strangle her when finished, something along those lines. But that's only a gut feeling.)

But I do also have the feeling some simpler evidence may be right there having to do with these items (gatorade bottle, syringe, etc) that may still jump out at us if we continue hashing over the details about these items!

I do hope the syringe might be traced somehow.


I can see how someone buying steroid for illicit use might buy it from a connection at the gym, and that the syringe might logically be concealed in a gatorade bottle like that since a gatorade bottle wouldn't seem unusual at a gym and the drink can be a bright blue color that you could conceal something in. But why would the drink be replaced with cleaning solution, cleaning solution could be the same color as gatorade, but it's more expensive and why bother....And why then dump it in THAT spot? Inside a Disney bag. Or if someone just threw their syringe away that way at their house so other housemembers wouldn't know they were using, again, why cleaning solution instead of plain old gatorade in the bottle. Just mulling these things over still!

Just to confirm, did the gatorade bottle have traces of pesticides in it?

If so, was this bottle then also used as a spittoon (i.e. the pesticides being from the tobacco.)

Also, just curious, are steroids ever used as an ingredient along with other drugs in a recreational drug cocktail?

Thanks for info

And thanks DogMom! I didn't know you were a chemistry type. Thanks to you and all our brainiacs who have been helping us so much on this subject and so many others!

I agree that it is important to find out these things. For instance the barcode and the expiration date to see if it had anything to do with this crime. As far as the ingredients in the bottle, I always wondered if it was just swamp water leaking into the bottle somehow. The location appears to be a ditch. Over time the ditch will accumulate just about every chemical you could imagine, oil gas, tire rubber, windshield fluid, anitfreeze, just run off from rain on the road and driveways and cars. When the water comes back up in the ditch, I would think it would be contaminated with all kinds of chemicals. I wish someone could take a sample today of that ditch and see if some of the same compounds exist.

 

[Tricia]

Just got off the phone with Dogmom and everything is cool. She is taking care of a sick relative and should be on within the next couple of days.

Whew. All is well in Websleuth land.

 

[TakeNote]

i have not had time....but wondered if anyone has found where the report states that there was liquid in the bag that the syringe came in.....??? not the disney bag

 

[biggirl]

Just got off the phone with Dogmom and everything is cool. She is taking care of a sick relative and should be on within the next couple of days.

Whew. All is well in Websleuth land.

You take such good care of us here in Websleuth land, as always!!! Thank you.

 

[nobull]

OT:
That's funny right there. It made me laugh first thing-thanks! Reminded me that my daughter told me yesterday that she was pretty sure on her French test she had written "I have a date with a duck!"...so was not overly confident of her test grade...

Dogmom, where oh where have you gone?:waitasec:

Thanks Dogmom for your help with our chem questions.

M-C: Ahhhhhh thanks for the laugh after a horrible day! :dance:

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Oh where or where has our Dogmom gone,
Oh where or where can she be,
With our conversation cut short,
We need her to come along,
Oh where oh where can she be.

 

[panama]

OK this has come up enough that I am going to go sleuth it out. There are topo maps of the area that Caylee was found. In a marshy, swampy area that flooded due to groundwater swell during rains, would previously dumped items end up in lower elevations when the waters receded? Beyond runoff from the graded road (which would have been mediated by the 4' grass/gravel road edge at the site plus by the vegetative barrier between road and site of remains) there would not be a strong current in such waters. Dumped items, whether placed at the same time or accidentally/purposely in the same area later than the initial body drop, could well just lift with the groundwater rising, and settle back down not very far from their initial resting point.

Topo maps, here I come!

ETA: OMG rabbit hole, help help help. Map of find site, please? Topographic info seems significant in the eventual disposition/displacement of items found near Caylee. Saw doc with same info earlier today. Cannot find same now. New sleuther learns to take notes: exhibit A.

Cool! Hmm... I'm not sure where this information was. I'll post if I can find anything. (I wish I'd been more organized with the case documents from the beginning... Now I know better, but man I wish I'd kept better track of the docs as they came out... I wouldn't have to figure out how to find and deal with 10k pages of docs now...)

Could it not be the case that the reason there was very little Chloroform left was because it was all inhaled by Caylee?

Hmm. This seems somewhat unlikely because the syringe was in a (virtually) air-tight container. Although, just as a thought experiment: the syringe could have started out containing a tiny bit of testosterone, and a large amount of chloroform. If the syringe was nearly completely emptied (say, onto a cloth), then left out for a while before being put into the Gatorade bottle, any remaining chloroform could have broken down or evaporated, and the (more stable) testosterone could have remained. BUT, keep in mind that there's no reason to think that there was ever a significant amount of chloroform in the syringe or bottle (other than because Chloroform comes up a lot in this case). The amounts of chloroform in the bottle and syringe were virtually insignificant -- on the order of what's found in drinking water.

I agree that is is more than odd that a World of Disney bag would house the syringe and the bottle and be so close to Caylee's remains. I think we might keep in mind that the Gatorade bottle and syringe might have been placed there later, perhaps to frame someone else. And at that point it might make sense that cleaning solvents would be present.

Yeah, that is a good point. I'd forgotten about this part when I was theorizing about the presence of the bottle a page or two ago, and how it seems perfectly reasonable that a testosterone user could have left it by the side of the road. Although, on the other hand, KC hadn't worked at Universal for a few years. (And, actually, aren't universal and Disney competitors?) Also, maybe World of Disney bags are really pervasive anyway, since it is Orlando. Do we have reason to believe that World of Disney bags would have been something that KC had around? Hmmm.

i have not had time....but wondered if anyone has found where the report states that there was liquid in the bag that the syringe came in.....??? not the disney bag

If I'm remembering correctly, the World of Disney bag contained a Gatorade bottle, which contained a cardboard toilet paper tube, which contained an open plastic syringe bag, which contained a syringe.

Ok, it looks like page 11,519 lists where these things were. (11,517-11,518 describes, rather than lists, this info). Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see the liquid from within the plastic-syringe-bag mentioned, although, it seems like there would have to be liquid in it. My guess is that the liquid that was in the syringe plastic bag was the same liquid that was in the Gatorade bottle, since it was in the Gatorade bottle. On 11,520 there's a photo (first column, second row) where you can see the syringe in the plastic-syringe-bag in the toilet paper tube in the Gatorade bottle. At the moment, I can't find where it says that the Gatorade bottle was inside the World of Disney bag, but It's probably there somewhere.

 

[legalmania]

Ok so here is a question for some of the brainiacs...Would a testosterone injection harm a small child?

I can sort of answer your question. As a small child I use to get adrenaline and steroid shots. I'm not sure how many cc's but I do remember my heart would feel like it was gonna bounce out of my chest. The steroids just made me bounce off the walls. They wouldn't give me both shots at the same time they would give me an adrenaline shot wait an hour and then give me a steroid shot. I have chronic asthma. I was overdosed twice by doctors.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Cool! Hmm... I'm not sure where this information was. I'll post if I can find anything. (I wish I'd been more organized with the case documents from the beginning... Now I know better, but man I wish I'd kept better track of the docs as they came out... I wouldn't have to figure out how to find and deal with 10k pages of docs now...)



Hmm. This seems somewhat unlikely because the syringe was in a (virtually) air-tight container. Although, just as a thought experiment: the syringe could have started out containing a tiny bit of testosterone, and a large amount of chloroform. If the syringe was nearly completely emptied (say, onto a cloth), then left out for a while before being put into the Gatorade bottle, any remaining chloroform could have broken down or evaporated, and the (more stable) testosterone could have remained. BUT, keep in mind that there's no reason to think that there was ever a significant amount of chloroform in the syringe or bottle (other than because Chloroform comes up a lot in this case). The amounts of chloroform in the bottle and syringe were virtually insignificant -- on the order of what's found in drinking water.



Yeah, that is a good point. I'd forgotten about this part when I was theorizing about the presence of the bottle a page or two ago, and how it seems perfectly reasonable that a testosterone user could have left it by the side of the road. Although, on the other hand, KC hadn't worked at Universal for a few years. (And, actually, aren't universal and Disney competitors?) Also, maybe World of Disney bags are really pervasive anyway, since it is Orlando. Do we have reason to believe that World of Disney bags would have been something that KC had around? Hmmm.



If I'm remembering correctly, the World of Disney bag contained a Gatorade bottle, which contained a cardboard toilet paper tube, which contained an open plastic syringe bag, which contained a syringe.

Ok, it looks like page 11,519 lists where these things were. (11,517-11,518 describes, rather than lists, this info). Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see the liquid from within the plastic-syringe-bag mentioned, although, it seems like there would have to be liquid in it. My guess is that the liquid that was in the syringe plastic bag was the same liquid that was in the Gatorade bottle, since it was in the Gatorade bottle. On 11,520 there's a photo (first column, second row) where you can see the syringe in the plastic-syringe-bag in the toilet paper tube in the Gatorade bottle. At the moment, I can't find where it says that the Gatorade bottle was inside the World of Disney bag, but It's probably there somewhere.

Yes, I wasn't referring to Chloroform in the syringe, I asked if the 'insignificant amount' of Chloroform left in the bottle was because the contents had been used to dose Caylee into unconsciousness, and the rest evaporated out of the mixture over time ...