Wendy Murphy: Klonopin + pineapple?

[JMO8778]

Interesting but

1. why would Patsy and John engage in creating and peddling kiddie *advertiser censored* - they certainly didn't need the money?

2. why on Christmas night of all nights when everyone is coming and going and they have a flight to be ready for and be on in a few hours?

3. Has anything ever remotely linked the Ramsey's to kiddie *advertiser censored* - or *advertiser censored* of any kind?

1-my answer:It could have been in exchange for favors from people higher up,politically or within the company he worked for.That's the only thing I can think of.
2-It could have been a (bad) Xmas video,like I stated earlier.Coupled with the fact JB was told she was going to get a special visit from Santa after Xmas,I'm guessing that could have been why.
I don't know about number 3.

 

[kazzbar]

1-my answer:It could have been in exchange for favors from people higher up,politically or within the company he worked for.That's the only thing I can think of.
2-It could have been a (bad) Xmas video,like I stated earlier.Coupled with the fact JB was told she was going to get a special visit from Santa after Xmas,I'm guessing that could have been why.
I don't know about number 3.

Although the Ramsay's did not need the money ,who knows what sexual pecadillos they both had? How can we know what goes on in peoples bedrooms or minds.If they wee involved in pedo stuff it could have been as part of a very influential group of people. Was'nt there a woman who came forward regarding an alleged group of sexual deviants in Boulder.
I am a little dubious regarding the alleged Santa visit because maybe JBR was just making up a "story' for her friend.
I have always thought if the Ramsays were that keen to put this all to rest they would let LE exhume the body.
I think they lied about the pineaplle because JBR was not asleep like they stated, she was 'up'.
So many discrepancies have been reported
in their statements that it is just laughable.

 

[southcitymom]

Interesting but

1. why would Patsy and John engage in creating and peddling kiddie *advertiser censored* - they certainly didn't need the money?

2. why on Christmas night of all nights when everyone is coming and going and they have a flight to be ready for and be on in a few hours?

3. Has anything ever remotely linked the Ramsey's to kiddie *advertiser censored* - or *advertiser censored* of any kind?

These questions point to the reasons why I don't buy any kiddie *advertiser censored* angle in this case.

1) I can see no reason for PR and JR to peddle kiddie *advertiser censored* and if any *advertiser censored* had been created with JBR as the "star", it would be known about by now. These are internet days - that stuff moves - it would be all over the place, and yet - nothing has surfaced to date. That's just not believable. Even if PR and JR peddled *advertiser censored* to curry favor with higher ups (which doesn't sound plausible), we would know about it by now - there would be some shard of evidence.

2) IF you are peddling kiddie *advertiser censored*, I find it impossible to believe you are going to do it on Xmas night when you are leaving in the morning. It doesn't pass the believability test. Believe it or not, people who make kiddie *advertiser censored* don't want to be caught - I just don't think they are going to stage some quickie thing on a busy night with little time.

3) No - nothing - not a thing. I truly believe there would be the tiniest scrap of evidence if the Ramseys did indeed have a kiddie *advertiser censored* bent.

I don't have a hard time buying incest or molestation or accident or toilet training issues or jealousy or protection of their son as theories behind motive in this case, but I just don't think it was a kiddie *advertiser censored* thing.

 

[magpie]

It seems Pasty had mental health "issues" long before JonBenet's death

Klonopin is widely prescribed for Fibromyalgia and RLS (Restless Leg Syndrome) but I have never heard of it being prescribed for depression or mental issues.

 

[SieSie]

Klonopin is widely prescribed for Fibromyalgia and RLS (Restless Leg Syndrome) but I have never heard of it being prescribed for depression or mental issues.

I take Klonopin - it's an anti-anxiety pill. I take it along with an anti-depressant (Zoloft). Doctor told me it helped with OCD as well as anxiety.

 

[magpie]

I take Klonopin - it's an anti-anxiety pill. I take it along with an anti-depressant (Zoloft). Doctor told me it helped with OCD as well as anxiety.

I take Klonopin, have been taking it for 15 years for Fibromyalgia and RLS, prescribed by my Rheumatologist, for muscle spasms and cramps.

My Mom also has Fibromyalgia along with Rheumatoid Arthritis and takes Klonopin prescribed for her by a different rheumatologist.

One of my best friends also has Fibromyalgia, different doctor also, and has been taking Klonopin for almost 20 years.

Rheumatologists often prescribe Klonopin for Fibromyalgia.

 

[Enola]

This is really interesting... I'd like to know more about this.I've always wondered why so much was made about the 'seperate plate' of crab for Jonbenet at the White's house and why they were so adamant that the pineapple could not have been consumed because Jonbenet was already so 'soundly asleep'.

I'm not convinced about any kiddie *advertiser censored* angle so I'm going to by-pass that discussion and just share a few thoughts on the Klonopin (it's called Clonazepam over here). It was very popular in the mid-90s for treating anxiety and insomnia (imagine how useful that would be if you were a highly-strung type going through a medical trauma...) and the reason I know about it is because i know a fair few people who took this drug. It was also seen as a bonus that a small dose of Clonazepam and a glass of wine seemed to make their whole world a much nicer place.

So let's imagine how Klonopin might fit into the picture.

No christmas video taken.

Or, more correctly, no christmas video handed over... we know from snippets about Jonbenet's disappointment with her My Twinn doll, Burke getting THE toy of the year, and the arguments about clothing, that Christmas day had some 'difficult' moments. I'd always imagined that a video was actually made and abandoned because the morning would have shown a fractious and possibly ill child with a slightly-spoiled nature behaving like a very typical girl of that age who didn't get what she wanted...

but maybe it also showed a little more than that. I have to take three different medications, it's just part of my routine and i'll put them by my tea cup until I have finished breakfast and then I take them. I've just popped in our video of the kids opening their presents last christmas. Sure enough, there i am in the background, cup of tea in hand...and taking my tablets. Klonopin is taken in divided doses - morning and evening. Did the video show Patsy taking her medication? And if it did, why was that such a problem?

Now, before I say the next bit, I want to make clear that I have absolutely no issue with the Whites and feel immense sympathy for the situation they have found themselves in over the years. However, if we are trying to work out why there was so much need to stress the 'seperate' plate of crab and the sleeping Jonbenet we need to know why the Ramseys thought the connection with the Whites would fly... did Mrs White take Klonopin too? If she did, then passing the buck on to the Whites would have been easy. Especially in a seperate dish that you stress only Jonbenet had.

But that doesn't answer the WHY. Why would they want to pass the buck onto the Whites?

 

[magpie]

Klonopin is taken in divided doses - morning and evening.

I only take it at night, it knocks me out. The rheumatologist said it helps you achieve REM sleep which is necessary in acheiving relaxation of the muscles when you have fibromyalgia.

I've never heard of it being prescribed for any other use, but I have never suffered from clinical depression so maybe that's why I associate Klonopin with muscular problems. I dunno.

Edit to add: Clonazepam is the generic name for Klonopin.

 

[Enola]

I only take it at night, it knocks me out. The rheumatologist said it helps you achieve REM sleep which is necessary in acheiving relaxation of the muscles when you have fibromyalgia.

I've never heard of it being prescribed for any other use, but I have never suffered from clinical depression so maybe that's why I associate Klonopin with muscular problems. I dunno.

Edit to add: Clonazepam is the generic name for Klonopin.

Hi Magpie sorry to hear about your fibromyalgia I hear it's a very painful problem to live with. Please don't think that I'm trying to paint you as a potty-raging mum because you take the medicine we are discussing

I've never heard it being prescribed for depression, either. We are actually in agreement, really. It was always used by the people I knew as an anti-anxiety medication. It's just as you say, it relaxes muscles and aids sleep. You take it for a physical problem and so it's the one dose before bed (same for restless legs etc) but when it's prescribed for anxiety it's a divided dose.

In fact, I imagine it is far more effctive for it's muscle relaxing effects than it ever was as an anti-anxiety treatment. I remember reading about Stevie Nicks and her problems with over-use of this medication.

 

[Darlene733510]

Wasn't Fleet White in the basement with JR when the body was found? Was he suspicious of something JR did
when they were in the basement, and did he tell someone of those suspicions? That could be the reason why JR began pointing the finger at the Whites.

 

[magpie]

Hi Magpie sorry to hear about your fibromyalgia I hear it's a very painful problem to live with. Please don't think that I'm trying to paint you as a potty-raging mum because you take the medicine we are discussing

I've never heard it being prescribed for depression, either. We are actually in agreement, really. It was always used by the people I knew as an anti-anxiety medication. It's just as you say, it relaxes muscles and aids sleep. You take it for a physical problem and so it's the one dose before bed (same for restless legs etc) but when it's prescribed for anxiety it's a divided dose.

In fact, I imagine it is far more effctive for it's muscle relaxing effects than it ever was as an anti-anxiety treatment. I remember reading about Stevie Nicks and her problems with over-use of this medication.

Hi Enola! I would have to be a potty-raging grandma at my age lol, but no, I didn't think you were suggesting that at all. Actually my only child was easy to potty train as it upset her so badly to have a dirty diaper. No offense was taken on my behalf at all - so we are friends I hope? Sometimes my posts are taken as too formal even though I am a jokster in real life. I try to keep my sense of humor under control in the JBR forum though because of the serious nature of this child's death.

I was just wanting to point out that Klonopin is used for medical problems other than anxiety, depression, or mental issues as had been suggested by another poster earlier in the thread.

This thread is the first time I had heard of Patsy being on Klonopin either before or after JBR's death. Is this true?

I knew Stevie Nicks had Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which is synonymous with fibromyalgia but I never knew she had problems with Klonopin overuse. Interesting as I have never had the urge to take more of it than the doctor suggested. Fibromyalgia is bad, not easy to live with, but as my doctor told me "It's not ever going to go away so it's better to just learn to live with it". I followed his advice.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Do we know if JBR was on any medication? Might have been a drug-drug interaction...

 

[close_enough]

i don't know about this kiddie *advertiser censored* stuff...just seems a little too 'out there' for me, but you never know, i guess.....i DO think there was something on that xmas video though....a person, or something that the R's didn't want anyone seeing....

i've never thought much about the plate of crab, that was "just for JonBenet" either....i think that was just something special to do/say for JBR, from some nice people....(shrugs)

 

[s_finch]

This is interesting. I suppose Patsy's medical records were never obtained by LE and/or were never released.

The indications for Klonopin as written by it's maker, Rocheusa, http://www.rocheusa.com/products/klonopin/pi.pdf states the following:

"Seizure disorder.........Panic Disorder with or without agoraphobia" Later it warns that Klonopin can cause "CNS depression" and even later, the document warns of adverse reactions for those specifically taking Klonopin for seizure or panic disorders "Psychiatric: Confusion, amnesia, depression, hallucinations, hysteria, increased libido, insominia, psychosis, suicidal attempt......The following paradoxical reactions have been observed: excitability, irritability, aggressive behavior, agitation, nervousness, hostility, anxiety, sleep disturbances, nightmares, vivid dreams" ...."Genitourinary: dysuria, enuresis, nocturia, urinary retention"


A drug is prescribed based on the "indications" from it's manufacturer, although doctors are not limited to such. According to Rocheusa, Klonopin is indicated for the treatment of panic disorders and seizure disorders. My spouse is a pharmacist, and I can tell you that Klonopin is not usually prescribed as a first line course for panic disorders. Usually, but not always, a milder drug would be tried first, such as xanax. Usually, Klonopin is considered the most efficacious but is not without side effects. Of course, the drug course presribed is up to the doctor.

Please note: The above listed possible adverse reactions are not the only ones listed by Rocheusa. I copied the ones I felt would be of most concern to this case. Also, wanted to add that enuresis means "bedwetting"

 

[Enola]

After some thought... and a little reading.

Lots of people make a point about the 'potty rage' theory that why would christmas night be so different? How about if you have a tired and ill mother who has had a busy few weeks, a fraught day with a child in a state who won't co-operate and doesn't 'hold it in' on the best of days. Then add the fact that she is sedated, fairly unable to co-operate even if she wanted to and has been given a drug that increases the frequency of micturition in adults let alone a slightly built six-year old....

"Smooth muscle relaxants such as Valium®, Klonopin®, and Xanex® also worsen urinary leakage by relaxing the external urethral sphincter."
http://www.wdxcyber.com/nurine06.htm

Talk about take a problem and make it worse. Then there are the symptoms of the drug in overdose or when given to children:

Symptoms of a clonazepam overdose may include drowsiness, dizziness, confusion, a slow heart beat, difficulty breathing, difficulty walking and talking, an appearance of being drunk, and unconsciousness.

http://health.yahoo.com/drug/d00197a1/

Would this explain the whole confusion around the head injury coming first or last? If Jonbenet received the head injury during a rage incident and all the rest is staging the drug aspect makes great sense. It explains the lack of bleeding out in the skull and would explain them believing she was already dead when the garrote was tied.

Which brings me back to a question in my last post:

But that doesn't answer the WHY. Why would they want to pass the buck onto the Whites?

One of the things I have noticed most strongly over the years is the way that the Ramseys never take the final responsibility for even the simplest things. When it comes to discussing past appearances on TV, travel, living arrangements, lawyers, etc etc it's ALWAYS because somebody gave them advice. This, in the Ramseys view, is their universal buck-passer - we did it because we were advised to. Blame the person who told us.

So how about this:

After a fraught day the Ramseys go to visit Fleet and Priscilla. Things are still fractious with Jonbenet - most parents know how over-tired and over-excited kids get by Christmas night. It's getting to the end of the evening together and Priscilla takes her Klonopin as she does every evening at that time. Patsy asks for one - Maybe even joking that she needs the extra relaxed feeling to face dealing with getting Jonbenet home and in bed after the day they have had with her. Priscilla pops another Klonopin out and passes it over. Then in a way that people often do with friends, they make a silly and joking comment with unforseen consequences. As the pill is passed over to Patsy, either Fleet or Priscilla joke that "Maybe you should be giving it to her instead of you!". The four adults laugh at the comment but maybe John half-jokes that it "Sounds like a good idea, It might come to that". Laughter all round.

Just imagine if that had happened.

Things turn sulky at home, John give Jonbenet some Klonopin as she is sat in the kitchen eating pineapple and refusing to go to bed. Imagine John did carry her up to bed as it took effect (just not from the car) and that drugged state was the final explosive element in the potty rage incident.

• It explains Burke saying she walked in from the car

• It explains why they are adamant about her not eating pineapple (they would want her to be asleep earlier having last eaten at the Whites)

• It explains the emphasis on the seperate plate of crab.

• It explains why John might feel as responsible as Patsy and stick by her.

• It explains the lack of bleeding in the skull

• It explains how they thought she was dead when she was actually still (just) alive

• It explains why LE asked about Klonopin

• It explains why they all get so excited when Patsy Karr says he 'drugged' Jonbenet

But most of all, it explains why the Ramseys and Fleets go from the close friends you spend Christmas with to the ones you throw under the bus. I don't imagine it took too long for the Ramsey's Universal Buck-Passer to kick in. If either Fleet, or Priscilla made the comment about the Klonopin they become the advice givers and the ultimately responsible...

I have always wondered about the comment FW made to JR in DOI,the "you know what I have to do now, John!'

Me too.

 

[magpie]

s finch,

I have never had any of the problems due to Klonopin listed in your post, but then again after 15 years I can either take the drug or leave it. Half the time I fall asleep on the couch without taking it, wake up at 3am and make coffee. I figure: What's the point of my taking it after sleeping peacefully for 6 hours on the couch, lol, when REM sleep is my reason for taking it.

But still, we don't even know for sure that Patsy was on Klonopin do we? Is there any proof of that, anybody?

 

[Enola]

But still, we don't even know for sure that Patsy was on Klonopin do we? Is there any proof of that, anybody?

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=117443&postcount=2

 

[gsquared]

Wasn't Dr. Beuf called in the morning of the "kidnapping" for Patsy's sake?

 

[dottierainbow]

I had also taken Klonopin for fibromyalgia and restless leg syndrom. I only took it for a month for it didn't relieve the pain as Voltaren so I switched back to that.
Some meds are used for different things than what it may have meant to be used for in the beginning.
Kjervis can you verify this if you are reading?
Amy

I only take it at night, it knocks me out. The rheumatologist said it helps you achieve REM sleep which is necessary in acheiving relaxation of the muscles when you have fibromyalgia.

I've never heard of it being prescribed for any other use, but I have never suffered from clinical depression so maybe that's why I associate Klonopin with muscular problems. I dunno.

Edit to add: Clonazepam is the generic name for Klonopin.

 

[magpie]

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=117443&postcount=2

Thanks for the link Enola, but I'm not clear just from that snippet of the interview whether or not they are referring to Patsy taking the Klonopin before or after the death of JBR. I'm sure she was medicated heavily after JBR's death. It was obvious.