What evidence does the prosecution have?

[gxm]

How does someone look when they are under the influence of marijuana? I'd bet you can't tell if someone is high.

LOL! I've raised teenagers. Is there a skunk in the house??? Bud is much stronger than the pot of my youth. Not that I ever smoked it or nothin'.

But back to the case, it actually jibes with much of GZ's 911 call, slumped over, hood pulled up, meandering around.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[liedetector]

You are correct. It has a high potential for abuse, which is why Sched II, which means that you only get 1 script good for 30 days with no refill. Your doctor will require you to be physically present each month, or will send you a handwritten script with a DNFU (Do Not Fill Until) Date. Given that he was prescribed the Adderall therapeutically, I think it is highly unlikely he was abusing it. They have the restrictions on Sched II they do to prevent the patient from selling the medication, or over dosing the medication (ie. if you do either, you are out of luck until your next script comes due)

It's obvious you are taking Adderall, as prescribed, and I think it's wonderful you have had successful treatment with it, as others with ADHD undoubtedly have. Unfortunately, I respectfully disagree, that it's "highly unlikely" GZ has not abused it, simply because he too was prescribed Adderall therapeutically. ...Not only is the potential for abuse and addiction for Adderall, extremely high, but it goes without saying that the overwhelming majority of Adderall addicts are those who were initially prescribed the drug therapeutically. This drug stimulates the "pleasure center" of the brain, and the urge to take more than is prescribed for heightened effect is all too common. Users then feel the need to take more and more Adderall to re-create or sustain this "rush." As the overuse pattern progresses and the onset of addiction begins they often resort to a variety of methods to obtain the extra drugs they crave, from doctor-shopping for multiple scripts, to ordering them from online (easier than you would imagine), and/or buying them on the street (where Adderall is called "college crack," among other things) ...I know of more cases than I can count like this, where all the while the family physician or psych doc who first prescribed the drug, and continues to do so, remains clueless...

All in all, no two people are alike, and some are at greater risk than others for becoming Adderall addicts; risk factors include a family background of alcohol or drug abuse, "stressful circumstances that the drug seems to alleviate initially," and individual emotional or personality traits. And while we clearly do not know enough about GZ, his family history or his Adderall intake to make any kind of real determination as to whether he has always adhered to Adderall as prescribed, or if he has ever abused it, we do know that misuse of Adderall on it's own can cause, paranoia, aggression and feelings of hostility. So, I, for one, can't help but wonder if drug tests had been performed on George that fateful night, what, if anything, they may have shown.

 

[beach]

I am moving posts with the links to the docs over to the Doc Dump thread.

 

[ariesgodofwar]

It's obvious you are taking Adderall, as prescribed, and I think it's wonderful you have had successful treatment with it, as others with ADHD undoubtedly have. Unfortunately, I respectfully disagree, that it's "highly unlikely" GZ has not abused it, simply because he too was prescribed Adderall therapeutically. ...Not only is the potential for abuse and addiction for Adderall, extremely high, but it goes without saying that the overwhelming majority of Adderall addicts are those who were initially prescribed the drug therapeutically. This drug stimulates the "pleasure center" of the brain, and the urge to take more than is prescribed for heightened effect is all too common. Users then feel the need to take more and more Adderall to re-create or sustain this "rush." As the overuse pattern progresses and the onset of addiction begins they often resort to a variety of methods to obtain the extra drugs they crave, from doctor-shopping for multiple scripts, to ordering them from online (easier than you would imagine), and/or buying them on the street (where Adderall is called "college crack," among other things) ...I know of more cases than I can count like this, where all the while the family physician or psych doc who first prescribed the drug, and continues to do so, remains clueless...

All in all, no two people are alike, and some are at greater risk than others for becoming Adderall addicts; risk factors include a family background of alcohol or drug abuse, "stressful circumstances that the drug seems to alleviate initially," and individual emotional or personality traits. And while we clearly do not know enough about GZ, his family history or his Adderall intake to make any kind of real determination as to whether he has always adhered to Adderall as prescribed, or if he has ever abused it, we do know that misuse of Adderall on it's own can cause, paranoia, aggression and feelings of hostility. So, I, for one, can't help but wonder if drug tests had been performed on George that fateful night, what, if anything, they may have shown.

Likely not with the half life of amphetamines, it would not tell us all that much. They do not accumulate in fatty tissue like THC in Marijuana does, so they are not near as cumulative and are only detectable if used recently. We would expect him however, as he was prescribed the medication, that it would appear in a screening. The type of release would matter as well, as would pH and dilutional effects of urine, serum protein levels and binding. Every body metabolizes it differently. I just do not think if that was what you were intending he be tested for, that it would be all that enlightening beyond the fact he had the substance present.

Yes, long term abuse can create psychotic paranoia in extreme cases, as you say, everyone is different. However, assuming that because he was prescribed Adderall that he must therefore be addicted or off his regimen is a bridge too far. (Not saying you made the inference, but others have posited that). I will say that of all the "Adderall Addicts" I know, and am unfortunately related to in some cases, none of them were ever prescribed the drug therapeutically. They started with Meth and moved to Adderall given the side effects and just general unacceptable nature of meth. Do you have any studies or scholarship on which you base the "it goes without saying assertion?" I am not necessarily refuting your claim, just would find research supporting it interesting.

Could GZ have abused Adderall? Sure, for all we know. Could he have abused crack cocaine? Sure, for all we know. We have as much evidence there was abuse of crack cocaine as there was Adderall. All we know at this time as far as I am aware is that he had a legally obtained prescription for it, and was under a Doctor's care. Whether he was taking it as prescribed, not taking it, overdosing, or anything else with it, we do not know at this point.

I was just a bit chuffed at the fact that is seemed some here (as well as JVM) in the media, who were ready to start some "Adderall makes you psychotic" campaign without knowing the facts, which I found a bit offensive. Especially given the fact that I carry a sidearm a good majority of everyday and am prescribed Adderall for the same very condition as GZ is reported to be under treatment for. As if I was some "dangerous psychopath" with diminished capacity waiting to vent my Adderall fueled rage on an innocent bystander. A bit like assuming that someone in a fatal car wreck who was taking an antidepressant must have caused it, (because we all know suicidal thoughts are rare side effects of some SSRI's.)

 

[ariesgodofwar]

LOL! I've raised teenagers. Is there a skunk in the house??? Bud is much stronger than the pot of my youth. Not that I ever smoked it or nothin'.

But back to the case, it actually jibes with much of GZ's 911 call, slumped over, hood pulled up, meandering around.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I know many people who become extremely paranoid when they are high. Extremely........not everyone is "Hey, pass me a brownie, I am vegging out." Not saying TM was high, but that does seem to lend a bit more credence to what GZ stated he witnessed. Either that or he has some way he can tell someone has used illegal drugs recently by witnessing their completely normal looking behavior.

 

[songline]

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-shows-trayvon-was-inches-away-zimmerman-wh/nN8MZ/

snipped
“It means that the firearm was within 2 feet of Trayvon Martin but not touching Trayvon Martin when he was shot,” said Sheaffer.


Shaeffer said the closer the physical confrontation was, the more reasonable Zimmerman's argument appears that he was in fear of being killed or badly hurt.

Thank you ElleyMae Great link.

 

[songline]

I know many people who become extremely paranoid when they are high. Extremely........not everyone is "Hey, pass me a brownie, I am vegging out." Not saying TM was high, but that does seem to lend a bit more credence to what GZ stated he witnessed. Either that or he has some way he can tell someone has used illegal drugs recently by witnessing their completely normal looking behavior.

TRUE but let’s add that Trayvons urine test does say that he WAS high,
and frankly that makes sense now, because nobody enjoys just meandering around in the rain
unless they need to take a long walk for a reason.

 

[ariesgodofwar]

TRUE but let’s add that Trayvons urine test does say that he WAS high,
and frankly that makes sense now, because nobody enjoys just meandering around in the rain
unless they need to take a long walk for a reason.

There you go....I have not read the latest dump, but it seems that GZ's story becomes more credible by the day, and the false narrative exposed. This could also explain why TM's last words, as told by GZ were so cliche.

 

[rossva]

No, no he was not told that.

GZ is not an owner, he only leased the property. He was also told by LE to wait with the car until a patrol car arrived. Once you call it in it becomes a police matter and GZ was not suppose to do anything other than wait either at home or in his car for police. This is a big problem for LE. It amounts to taking the law into your own hands. Nothing was ever going to be gained by GZ following TM. There was no reason. He did not observe TM committing a crime. TM wasn't chasing someone, or hitting someone or stealing their purse. It was not GZ's responsibility to do LE's job for them. He had no authority whatsoever. Once you report a crime the rules about pursing someone changes and that is what LE was trying to communicate to GZ. Because GZ took matters into his own hands instead of waiting for LE, TM is dead. It's not a matter of the law, it's a matter of not interferring with police business when it is no longer your business. Someone walking down the street it none of business unless they are doing something wrong. GZ has never proven TM was doing something wrong.....he just thought in his mind, at the time, that TM looked suspicious. Someone not so obsessed might think it was just a kid walking home in the rain. jmo

This all took place in the common areas of the community and it was not GZ's "private property" and was no where near where GZ lived. He lived on the other side of this community.

 

[songline]

A couple of things from this article indicate that GZ's wife was more involved the night of the shooting than has been indicated before, and a couple of things I have not seen confirmed before:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/u...issteps.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&pagewanted=all

[/U]

Maybe would have been a good idea to check with their own dispatcher....

IMO

Good article thank you reader

 

[songline]

GZ is not an owner, he only leased the property. He was also told by LE to wait with the car until a patrol car arrived. Once you call it in it becomes a police matter and GZ was not suppose to do anything other than wait either at home or in his car for police. This is a big problem for LE. It amounts to taking the law into your own hands. Nothing was ever going to be gained by GZ following TM. There was no reason. He did not observe TM committing a crime. TM wasn't chasing someone, or hitting someone or stealing their purse. It was not GZ's responsibility to do LE's job for them. He had no authority whatsoever. Once you report a crime the rules about pursing someone changes and that is what LE was trying to communicate to GZ. Because GZ took matters into his own hands instead of waiting for LE, TM is dead. It's not a matter of the law, it's a matter of not interferring with police business when it is no longer your business. Someone walking down the street it none of business unless they are doing something wrong. GZ has never proven TM was doing something wrong.....he just thought in his mind, at the time, that TM looked suspicious. Someone not so obsessed might think it was just a kid walking home in the rain. jmo

This all took place in the common areas of the community and it was not GZ's "private property" and was no where near where GZ lived. He lived on the other side of this community.

I wish he did not get out of the car also.
I do remember during the 911 call they asked for an address
and he was not sure of the address,
I think that was he motive and to to follow trayvon.

 

[Littleone48]

You are correct. It has a high potential for abuse, which is why Sched II, which means that you only get 1 script good for 30 days with no refill. Your doctor will require you to be physically present each month, or will send you a handwritten script with a DNFU (Do Not Fill Until) Date. Given that he was prescribed the Adderall therapeutically, I think it is highly unlikely he was abusing it. They have the restrictions on Sched II they do to prevent the patient from selling the medication, or over dosing the medication (ie. if you do either, you are out of luck until your next script comes due)

I respectfully disagree with this statement. Those who become addicted to any medication do not usually tell their Dr. Nope they use their medication, then they go and buy it off the street which BTW Adderall is one of the easiest drug to find. The only way to prevent any addiction to these drugs is for the Dr to call the patient to come in THAT day for a pill count or they will not do a refill.

I was very suprised to learn that Adderall is the #4 drug that is abused. I know people the go to the pain clinic and sell 1/2 of their pills on the street, to friends etc. How do Drs find this out? They don't. So just because he was on a theapeutic dose does NOT mean he was not abusing it.

IMO

 

[Reader]

I'm gonna have to call on one of our health professionals who understand the human anatomy to help me understand this.

How does a single bullet shatter one of the heart's two large chambers AND pass through both lungs?

What does the terminology "passed directly from the front to the back" indicate as to the bullet's path?

If GZ was on his back while TM straddled him, why am I not seeing the term "upward trajectory" in any of this?

Now that we have the ME's report that the shot was straight into the chest, I see I was wrong in thinking it could have been from L to R to do all that damage. But I am wondering if all this damage to the heart and lungs could be because of the use of the hollow point bullet. Don't they shatter and cause more damage to the body? The ME found fragments. Could that be what caused such damage to Trayvon?