What If............(IDI+RDI)

[ziggy]

There's a start for everything.

Indeed including an murderous intruder who writes a really long bogus ransom note.

 

[Ames]

Indeed including an murderous intruder who writes a really long bogus ransom note.

And leaves IT AND the BODY behind??

Why not take it with him, because...the RN was written BEFORE he killed her, right? Then why in the world would he leave a three page RN, written in his own handwriting at the scene. A REAL kidnapper would have said..."OOPS! I accidently killed her, I had better take that RN with me, so that they can't identify my handwriting, and figure out who I am". Patsy on the otherhand...had a real REASON for writing the RN, and leaving it "behind"...to explain WHY their daughter was dead in their basement. "IF you talk to so much as a dog, she will be killed"....and hence..she dials 911 and then calls over all of her neighbors. If someone had kidnapped my daughter...and the RN stated such a thing, the first thing that I WOULDN'T do...is call over all of my neighbors...in fact, I wouldn't do it at ALL. As far as the 911 call goes...I would have gotten in my car, and drove somewhere, and called on my cell phone.

 

[madeleine]

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/loeb/3c.html

Essentially, the whole murder/kidnap scheme was an elaborate game to entertain and intellectually challenge two bored students. They immensely enjoyed developing and refining what they were certain was the "perfect crime," befitting their superior intellects. Collecting the ransom without being caught was a more difficult problem for them than the kidnapping and murder. They had put together several different plans for the ransom collection, researching each plan diligently.

Richard knew Bobby. He was a neighbor and had played on the Loeb mansion's tennis courts. Richard asked him to look at a particular tennis racket and Bobby agreed. As soon as he was in the car, Bobby was hit on the head with a chisel and a cloth forced down his throat, which led to his suffocation.

""The diabolical spirit evinced in the planned kidnapping and murder; the wealth and prominence of the families whose sons are involved; the high mental attainments of the youths, *the suggestions of perversion;* the strange quirks indicated in the confession that the child was slain for a ransom, for experience, for the satisfaction of a desire for "deep plotting," combined to set the case in a class by itself."

"adding weight to the "perversion" testimony, and causing from then on, a notion in the mind of the public that the entire kidnaping was an act of perversion, that Robery Franks was sexually abused, an idea that remained with the case, that Leopold wrote about in his autobiography, citing a time when he was denied a transfer to the honor farm, because "sexual criminals" were not allowed there. "

--- the alleged sexual abuse of BF was an issue raised in trial, and by psychiatrists who examined them. The claim does exist in transcripts.

I have speculated if the IDI was motivated by L&L to commit "the perfect crime" as an "intellectual" challenge. I know that the RDI's here will dismiss such a theory out of hand.

I see your point and I always thought that IF (big if) it was an intruder then it was someone playing a very sick game and his motivation was to hurt the Ramsey's as a family(revenge,fun?), not necessarily JB(hence not mention her by name in the r.note).Re intellectual challenge though,the ransom note wasn't a master piece IMO.Re perfect crime I have to agree with all the posters who say that it was about luck and not about a perfect crime,he(the alledged intruder) left his dna all over the place,right?(far from perfect)

 

[Sophie]

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/loeb/3c.html

"Essentially, the whole murder/kidnap scheme was an elaborate game to entertain and intellectually challenge two bored students. They immensely enjoyed developing and refining what they were certain was the "perfect crime," befitting their superior intellects. Collecting the ransom without being caught was a more difficult problem for them than the kidnapping and murder. They had put together several different plans for the ransom collection, researching each plan diligently.

"Richard knew Bobby. He was a neighbor and had played on the Loeb mansion's tennis courts. Richard asked him to look at a particular tennis racket and Bobby agreed. As soon as he was in the car, Bobby was hit on the head with a chisel and a cloth forced down his throat, which led to his suffocation.

""The diabolical spirit evinced in the planned kidnapping and murder; the wealth and prominence of the families whose sons are involved; the high mental attainments of the youths, *the suggestions of perversion;* the strange quirks indicated in the confession that the child was slain for a ransom, for experience, for the satisfaction of a desire for "deep plotting," combined to set the case in a class by itself."

"adding weight to the "perversion" testimony, and causing from then on, a notion in the mind of the public that the entire kidnaping was an act of perversion, that Robery Franks was sexually abused, an idea that remained with the case, that Leopold wrote about in his autobiography, citing a time when he was denied a transfer to the honor farm, because "sexual criminals" were not allowed there. "" - end of quotations

--- the alleged sexual abuse of BF was an issue raised in trial, and by psychiatrists who examined them. The claim does exist in transcripts.

I have speculated if the IDI was motivated by L&L to commit "the perfect crime" as an "intellectual" challenge. I know that the RDI's here will dismiss such a theory out of hand.

Must say, while I think someone in the house wrote the note, it does strike me as containing elements of undergraduate humour...

 

[voynich]

I see your point and I always thought that IF (big if) it was an intruder then it was someone playing a very sick game and his motivation was to hurt the Ramsey's as a family(revenge,fun?), not necessarily JB(hence not mention her by name in the r.note).Re intellectual challenge though,the ransom note wasn't a master piece IMO.Re perfect crime I have to agree with all the posters who say that it was about luck and not about a perfect crime,he(the alledged intruder) left his dna all over the place,right?(far from perfect)

My IDI theory would be patterned after L&L -- who did it for "fun"

the article makes for an interesting read. Clarence Darrow, who also got involved in Evolution v.s Creation with William Bryan, prevented L&L execution, along the lines that it's Fredrich Nietzsches Ubermensch fault (Nietzsche is taught at Univ of Chicago as part of the Great Books program. -- I wonder how many other unsolved murders there are around this school)


Anyone want to read this as a separate article?

 

[madeleine]

My IDI theory would be patterned after L&L -- who did it for "fun"

the article makes for an interesting read. Clarence Darrow, who also got involved in Evolution v.s Creation with William Bryan, prevented L&L execution, along the lines that it's Fredrich Nietzsches Ubermensch fault (Nietzsche is taught at Univ of Chicago as part of the Great Books program. -- I wonder how many other unsolved murders there are around this school)


Anyone want to read this as a separate article?

Sure.

 

[voynich]

Sure.

Well maybe separate post is too much, how many threads have I started? I lost track.



Yeah, you see L&L are dead. Do you believe in reincarnation? They were reincarnated and this time, attending Univ of Co @ Boulder, not Univ of Chicago. They had past life memory, and wanted to get another stab at perfect crime. This time they decided not to leave their glasses behind, and use a typewriter. (The typewriter was a match to their first RN)

They read all the true crimes and "police tactics and countermeasures" including fiber evidence and staging and CSI. They have detailed knowledge on how psychological profilers think, and they then turned tables on them.

They knew, for example, if they took tape and stuck PR's jacket fibers on it, fiber analysis would trace it to them. They knew what a staged crime scene would look like, so they staged the crime scene. They knew if they over stage, and try to present multiple motives, this would simply be a better way to frame the R's for staging. They practiced writing their RN before entering the house, with samples of PR's hand writings so as to make it look like the RN was written by PR.

 

[madeleine]

Well maybe separate post is too much, how many threads have I started? I lost track.


Yeah, you see L&L are dead. Do you believe in reincarnation? They were reincarnated and this time, attending Univ of Co @ Boulder, not Univ of Chicago. They had past life memory, and wanted to get another stab at perfect crime. This time they decided not to leave their glasses behind, and use a typewriter. (The typewriter was a match to their first RN)

They read all the true crimes and "police tactics and countermeasures" including fiber evidence and staging and CSI. They have detailed knowledge on how psychological profilers think, and they then turned tables on them.

They knew, for example, if they took tape and stuck PR's jacket fibers on it, fiber analysis would trace it to them. They knew what a staged crime scene would look like, so they staged the crime scene. They knew if they over stage, and try to present multiple motives, this would simply be a better way to frame the R's for staging. They practiced writing their RN before entering the house, with samples of PR's hand writings so as to make it look like the RN was written by PR.

They used "countermeasures" and counter-intelligence, they staged the crime scene knowing that when profilers look at the crime scene, they will think the crime scene was staged, so they then draw the conclusion not that an intruder did it but a R'.


--- I'm not serious about reincarnation.


There is a past time though of committing the perfect crime. The show CSI makes it easy for lay persons to know the details of an investigation.

Okay but how come were "they" so stupid then and left their dna at the crime scene?

 

[voynich]

Okay but how come were "they" so stupid then and left their dna at the crime scene?

The first DNA was foreign DNA mixed with blood from JB's vaginal bleeding. This will sound yucky, but oral sex and saliva is a good candidate for its source.

-- The counterclaim is that it comes from the Asian factory worker sneeze.

The second DNA was touch DNA on two different parts of her outer clothing. Obviously touch DNA did not exist nor was it foreseeable it could exist in 1996.

The L&L for all their intelligence, left behind their GLASSES which linked them to the crime.

 

[madeleine]

The first DNA was foreign DNA mixed with blood from JB's vaginal bleeding. This will sound yucky, but oral sex and saliva is a good candidate for its source.

-- The counterclaim is that it comes from the Asian factory worker sneeze.

The second DNA was touch DNA on two different parts of her outer clothing. Obviously touch DNA did not exist nor was it foreseeable it could exist in 1996.

The L&L for all their intelligence, left behind their GLASSES which linked them to the crime.

L&L IMO more arrogant than intelligent.I am so smart that I will never do any mistakes.Arrogance makes you sloppy I guess.Trapped by their own ego's maybe.

 

[voynich]

L&L IMO more arrogant than intelligent.I am so smart that I will never do any mistakes.Arrogance makes you sloppy I guess.Trapped by their own ego's maybe.

"And so this pedophile kidnapper, this pedophile-ransomer-kidnapper-turned-murderer would have been unique in the annals of crime. Such a bird does not exist." ST
(not in this case,I agree)

is L&L a good counter to ST?

 

[madeleine]

L&L were caught.I am sure they wouldn't have stopped.Why do you think our L&L's did?And can you tell for sure that Patsy never heard of this case?What if it wasn't the movies that inspired her but this case?

 

[voynich]

L&L were caught.I am sure they wouldn't have stopped.Why do you think our L&L's did?

He ended up molesting in Thailand, downloading child *advertiser censored*, and told a prof "I was with JB when she died"

He looks like a terminator model t-1000 sent back in time by skynet.

 

[madeleine]

Actually he was used by that prof.

But that's only my opinion.

 

[DeeDee249]

And leaves IT AND the BODY behind??

Why not take it with him, because...the RN was written BEFORE he killed her, right? Then why in the world would he leave a three page RN, written in his own handwriting at the scene. A REAL kidnapper would have said..."OOPS! I accidently killed her, I had better take that RN with me, so that they can't identify my handwriting, and figure out who I am". Patsy on the otherhand...had a real REASON for writing the RN, and leaving it "behind"...to explain WHY their daughter was dead in their basement. "IF you talk to so much as a dog, she will be killed"....and hence..she dials 911 and then calls over all of her neighbors. If someone had kidnapped my daughter...and the RN stated such a thing, the first thing that I WOULDN'T do...is call over all of my neighbors...in fact, I wouldn't do it at ALL. As far as the 911 call goes...I would have gotten in my car, and drove somewhere, and called on my cell phone.

Make that a pubic pay phone.