What Is Your Theory?

[glamourkitty1922]

I know people who have received these citations, and I'm not going to peruse through thousands of PI citations trying to find a student who says they were given a ticket unfairly. You do realize that these are usually not arrests but tickets, right?

so...anyway, as far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over.
I think it's definitely run its course.

It's so sad that so many people fall in and drown each year in the US, but I can't see how it can be blamed on anything else than a tragic accident while intoxicated.

 

[MJOK]

I believe they are a group of Hoity Toity rich guys, kids at first then just kept going into adulthood. I think they may have used a female in the beginning as a lure, then realized they just had to lie and stopped using the girls. . The vastness of the case spread out so far, they have to belong to a money family. They don't NEED money these guys are found dead with cash. I wondered about an injection and after being in water the results? Do they disappear or become obvious? They seem to know the area's well. With the bac's being that low and showing up in Victims who didn't drink, is it possible the 1st or 2nd Drink is being dosed?..

 

[PingTheRouter]

just finished watching the oxygen series

nothing in that series says to me serial killer(s), it does say to me a lot of police forces and medical examiners are understaffed and rushing their jobs to hurry and close out cases

a lot of these cases had so many red flags right from the start, like how do you miss ligature marks around the neck, how do you miss the blood pooling in the fingers, how do you not connect the dots about decomp not matching the time frame, rigor being still in early stages and not being limp when the supposed body was said to be in the water for weeks, things like lividity not matching where the body was found aka water instead being from a hard surface, these things seem like something you'd be taught in medical school for a coroner or medical examiner

someone doesn't go missing one night then end up dead 70 days later and that be natural from drowning, that person would have found their way home by then somehow

what it does seem like though is that police forces and medical examiners need more training and more help when dealing with bodies found in areas of water

because it seems a lot of these cases with basic death science could have been ruled undetermined or suspicious death or even homicide from the get go instead of cold water drowning

GHB or GBL in high doses can do some really funky stuff to you and especially if you don't know you've taken it, iv taken it for recreational reasons and iv almost OD'd on it once, it was almost like i was still doing what i was doing i could see and hear everything but then i woke up and realised 20 minutes had passed, i hadn't even realised my eyes were closed or that i had passed out
but during those 20 minutes in my mind it was as if i was awake it can really mess with your head

i didn't even drink any alcohol because i knew of the dangers of GBL/GHB and mixing it with alcohol

 

[Ixchel13]

I believe they are a group of Hoity Toity rich guys, kids at first then just kept going into adulthood. I think they may have used a female in the beginning as a lure, then realized they just had to lie and stopped using the girls. . The vastness of the case spread out so far, they have to belong to a money family. They don't NEED money these guys are found dead with cash. I wondered about an injection and after being in water the results? Do they disappear or become obvious? They seem to know the area's well. With the bac's being that low and showing up in Victims who didn't drink, is it possible the 1st or 2nd Drink is being dosed?..

Yes, exactly. It's almost like you did the same research I did. or vice versa. Not sure how the women fit in either. But go back to the original victim, Patrick O'Neil I think. The story of his acting up was backed up by a bartender woman.

I'm gonna go here>>the bartender/waitress "witnesses".
When Lauren disappeared, one of the waitresses at Kilroy's said she was arguing with a man, a customer but her entire story made Lauren seem like it was all her fault, that she was rowdy, and also that Lauren actually told her how many drugs she had taken that night. IMO, all that was to cover their A$$.
The next week, Kilroys closed down and completely dismantled the many tons of beach sand and the entire beach theme that was wildly popular with the crowd, that Lauren had been playing in, where she supposedly left her phone and shoes.And kept the place closed for almost 6 months. By that time, all employee witnesses were scattered and gone.

IOW, these people lie. Lauren could have been arguing with DM. Who was the last person to admit to seeing Lauren hit her head, and be carried away by a man who by her description doesn't fit any of the POIs? It was the off duty bar manager from Yogi's. Who just happened to
know DM, from being a regular at Yogi's, Hannah Wilson's killer. Because this bartender witness gave a different time, and that ruined the entire timeline for the friends being guilty, here on WS most continued to view the Yogi's bar manager as somehow she was mistaken about the time she saw Lauren hit her head. She either lied, or told the truth, about what she saw and who it was.
The bartender at Kilroys was either lying, or telling the truth, about Lauren.

The bartenders are either lying, or telling the truth about some of these men who were drowned. sorry, rant over, lol.

After Hannah was killed, I think LE realized they had really
missed it when they didn't follow up on this bartender witness.
People call her a "witness" but really LE pulled her plates, she admitted to circling the building at the exact time Lauren was out there because she admitted she saw Lauren fall and hit her head and the man carried her off.
Most of these bartenders are going to say exactly what clears them of any wrong doing.

In some of these cases, the men were thrown out onto the freezing cold streets without their coats just because someone reported them as acting weird. In the Josh Strohzac (sp?) video, he seems to be looking at the jacket as if it's not his, he originally goes through a pocket and throws something away, keeps examining the jacket as he walks through the frame and you can see his body language when he decides to put on the jacket that isn't his.

So, if LE comes into the bar, and asks the bartender, bouncer, or bartender, did you throw this person out on someone else's recommendation, without giving them a chance, and without their coat? they will never say, "yes, I did." .
I see these people as patsies. They resent the clientele so unwittingly play into the killers plot but then lie and exaggerate to stay out of trouble.

This is the important factor, the keystone to the frame up.
When LE comes to investigate, the bartender, waitress or bouncer will report the victim's bad behavior. And then it's, drunk, misbehaving guy stumbles into river and drowns.

It was also on waitress and bartender testimony, that it was determined to be all Lauren's and her friends fault for their original behavior which is why everyone started focusing on
her friends and even Lauren herself instead of that man who was picking a fight with her in Kilroys. Years ago, in a Bloomington bar, DM picked a fight with a woman and her husband in a bar, punched the man out, left the bar and came back with a 2 by 4 and beat the woman over the head so savagely she lost sight in an eye.

Think about it. We've sleuthed many college student murders.
Has any of the bartenders, waiters, cab drivers, all of the people who make their living from these students EVER stood up for them after they're murdered? And yet, many of them
readily get them drunk by serving them over the limit and then throw them out in the street. The bartenders assist as men get young naive women blacked out drunk and then haul them out. That includes female bartenders as well.

Hey, lots of awesome waitresses and bartenders out there.

 

[Chloebear3]

Yes, exactly. It's almost like you did the same research I did. or vice versa. Not sure how the women fit in either. But go back to the original victim, Patrick O'Neil I think. The story of his acting up was backed up by a bartender woman.

I'm gonna go here>>the bartender/waitress "witnesses".
When Lauren disappeared, one of the waitresses at Kilroy's said she was arguing with a man, a customer but her entire story made Lauren seem like it was all her fault, that she was rowdy, and also that Lauren actually told her how many drugs she had taken that night. IMO, all that was to cover their A$$.
The next week, Kilroys closed down and completely dismantled the many tons of beach sand and the entire beach theme that was wildly popular with the crowd, that Lauren had been playing in, where she supposedly left her phone and shoes.And kept the place closed for almost 6 months. By that time, all employee witnesses were scattered and gone.

IOW, these people lie. Lauren could have been arguing with DM. Who was the last person to admit to seeing Lauren hit her head, and be carried away by a man who by her description doesn't fit any of the POIs? It was the off duty bar manager from Yogi's. Who just happened to
know DM, from being a regular at Yogi's, Hannah Wilson's killer. Because this bartender witness gave a different time, and that ruined the entire timeline for the friends being guilty, here on WS most continued to view the Yogi's bar manager as somehow she was mistaken about the time she saw Lauren hit her head. She either lied, or told the truth, about what she saw and who it was.
The bartender at Kilroys was either lying, or telling the truth, about Lauren.

The bartenders are either lying, or telling the truth about some of these men who were drowned. sorry, rant over, lol.

After Hannah was killed, I think LE realized they had really
missed it when they didn't follow up on this bartender witness.
People call her a "witness" but really LE pulled her plates, she admitted to circling the building at the exact time Lauren was out there because she admitted she saw Lauren fall and hit her head and the man carried her off.
Most of these bartenders are going to say exactly what clears them of any wrong doing.

In some of these cases, the men were thrown out onto the freezing cold streets without their coats just because someone reported them as acting weird. In the Josh Strohzac (sp?) video, he seems to be looking at the jacket as if it's not his, he originally goes through a pocket and throws something away, keeps examining the jacket as he walks through the frame and you can see his body language when he decides to put on the jacket that isn't his.

So, if LE comes into the bar, and asks the bartender, bouncer, or bartender, did you throw this person out on someone else's recommendation, without giving them a chance, and without their coat? they will never say, "yes, I did." .
I see these people as patsies. They resent the clientele so unwittingly play into the killers plot but then lie and exaggerate to stay out of trouble.

This is the important factor, the keystone to the frame up.
When LE comes to investigate, the bartender, waitress or bouncer will report the victim's bad behavior. And then it's, drunk, misbehaving guy stumbles into river and drowns.

It was also on waitress and bartender testimony, that it was determined to be all Lauren's and her friends fault for their original behavior which is why everyone started focusing on
her friends and even Lauren herself instead of that man who was picking a fight with her in Kilroys. Years ago, in a Bloomington bar, DM picked a fight with a woman and her husband in a bar, punched the man out, left the bar and came back with a 2 by 4 and beat the woman over the head so savagely she lost sight in an eye.

Think about it. We've sleuthed many college student murders.
Has any of the bartenders, waiters, cab drivers, all of the people who make their living from these students EVER stood up for them after they're murdered? And yet, many of them
readily get them drunk by serving them over the limit and then throw them out in the street. The bartenders assist as men get young naive women blacked out drunk and then haul them out. That includes female bartenders as well.

Hey, lots of awesome waitresses and bartenders out there.

 

[Chloebear3]

You’re theory makes so much sense to me. I have been following and researching these cases for a long time and it seems to me, IMO, that some of the bartenders/bouncers must be either involved, know what’s going on and don’t do anything to stop it, or like you said, are the patsies without really realizing it.
Hear me out - I don’t believe for a minute all of these cases are accidents. Sure some of them most likely are. And some I’m sure are suicides. But when you have cases like Dakota James, you cannot look at that and not see something fishy with his death. He was definitely murdered. I still cannot pinpoint who exactly is doing this, but I believe it’s more than one person, they are spread out into different states, they watch people (I do not think the victims are random), there are males and females, most likely they are college age or look college age - they blend right in with the crowd. I wouldn’t be surprised if anyone would ever get arrested for any of these cases, that at least one of the offenders appears on surveillance of a victim.
I have so much more but way too much to type right now lol.
And of course this is all my own opinion.

 

[Ixchel13]

You’re theory makes so much sense to me. I have been following and researching these cases for a long time and it seems to me, IMO, that some of the bartenders/bouncers must be either involved, know what’s going on and don’t do anything to stop it, or like you said, are the patsies without really realizing it.
Hear me out - I don’t believe for a minute all of these cases are accidents. Sure some of them most likely are. And some I’m sure are suicides. But when you have cases like Dakota James, you cannot look at that and not see something fishy with his death. He was definitely murdered. I still cannot pinpoint who exactly is doing this, but I believe it’s more than one person, they are spread out into different states, they watch people (I do not think the victims are random), there are males and females, most likely they are college age or look college age - they blend right in with the crowd. I wouldn’t be surprised if anyone would ever get arrested for any of these cases, that at least one of the offenders appears on surveillance of a victim.
I have so much more but way too much to type right now lol.
And of course this is all my own opinion.

Hi Chloebear, I hope you do write more. Wanted to go back to the waiter/bartender/bouncer thing. it's all about liability, and the actual
blame may fall with these corporate owners.
They want their staff to basically funnel alcohol down these mostly young inexperienced drinkers' throats, but when they become embroiled in some sort of scandal or crime, they always say the victim was on drugs, etc. It's never the fact that they served them over the limit.

These college bars and restaurant/bar chains are making hundreds of millions per month! They do absolutely effing ZERO to protect their clients.

I know this because I was a manager in college bars during the night shift. I scheduled, managed and disciplined the people
I am criticizing at this moment: the resentful bar workers who prey on these college kids. Sorry to sound like such a batch,
I have no classist reason to single these people out, I'm in the same class, but exist they do. I actually found it too scary to keep managing these bars.

People are like, "Why does Ixchel hate bar workers?" Answer, I don't!! Out of context, but let me try to state as concisely as I can what one of these bad apples did!

It was jazz night. A 55 yr old client ordered a round of drinks.
Waitress tells him she must hold his charge card for the tab.
She then gives the card to her boyfriend, who went on a frenzied $5,000+ spending spree while this waitress flirts with him, pretends to charge drinks to this charge card,
while her bf accomplice charges items at Best Buy, Bed Bath and Beyond, Macy's and several gas stations. Never, EVER give your charge card to someone to hold
for a tab. NEVER.

Drinking establishments=never ending scams against drunk people of all ages.

 

[Ixchel13]

just finished watching the oxygen series

nothing in that series says to me serial killer(s), it does say to me a lot of police forces and medical examiners are understaffed and rushing their jobs to hurry and close out cases

a lot of these cases had so many red flags right from the start, like how do you miss ligature marks around the neck, how do you miss the blood pooling in the fingers, how do you not connect the dots about decomp not matching the time frame, rigor being still in early stages and not being limp when the supposed body was said to be in the water for weeks, things like lividity not matching where the body was found aka water instead being from a hard surface, these things seem like something you'd be taught in medical school for a coroner or medical examiner

someone doesn't go missing one night then end up dead 70 days later and that be natural from drowning, that person would have found their way home by then somehow

what it does seem like though is that police forces and medical examiners need more training and more help when dealing with bodies found in areas of water

because it seems a lot of these cases with basic death science could have been ruled undetermined or suspicious death or even homicide from the get go instead of cold water drowning

GHB or GBL in high doses can do some really funky stuff to you and especially if you don't know you've taken it, iv taken it for recreational reasons and iv almost OD'd on it once, it was almost like i was still doing what i was doing i could see and hear everything but then i woke up and realised 20 minutes had passed, i hadn't even realised my eyes were closed or that i had passed out
but during those 20 minutes in my mind it was as if i was awake it can really mess with your head

i didn't even drink any alcohol because i knew of the dangers of GBL/GHB and mixing it with alcohol

Ping, your medical analysis is spot on. Like you see in the detective movies. coroner is all ready to deduce suicide or accidental drowning and close the case until some LE who gives a damn says wait a minute, this was no accident, it's murder. Or the coroner says to the cop who wants to close the case hey wait a minute, do you see these ligature marks?

These shows are mirrors of what actually happens, not exaggerations.

In the case(s) of SFK, both the cops AND the coroner didn't
want to proceed with the right degree of attention these cases warranted. Too much work and too big of a can of worms to open, and when too many LE officers outside of these cases
started to see the patterns and contacted the victims' parents,
the officers involved with the cases ramped up and doubled down on the accidental drownings/suicide/blacked out drunk
scenarios.

IMO, I bet the numbers are completely reversed. LE thinks maybe a few might be homicides, the rest accidental drownings and suicides. IMO, it's more like a few accidents and suicides, the rest murders.

Let's discuss two things: #1. The kid who broke a window, basically jumped through the window managed to set off an alarm but was still taken and left behind bloody evidence from
broken window , of a violent struggle.

#2. One of the two survivors. The one who regained consciousness in the river across the street from the bar that
has the first known SFK victim. If you like to eagerly follow clues that present themselves like a trail of breadcrumbs like I do, you will like this.

 

[Ixchel13]

Another thing Ping said made me think about the victims in which lividity and decomp didn't match the time passed since going missing--it made me wonder if victims who did match
the time missing with lividity were the victims who had clues or witnesses to their abductions. This isn't true of Patrick O'Neil but may be true with others. Definitely going right now to check
the guy who broke the window and see if his lividity matched time of disappearance. This is on video but I have never allowed myself to watch it and rely on the accounts of others.

No way did this guy break a window of a medical building, they have him
on tape with half his clothes off and screaming for his life, and then after all
of this he goes and drowns himself? Absolutely, no way.

 

[Twilightangelslight]

SFK is real. Did a lot of research on where it started and in what Midwest business. Then, as that Midwest business branched out, there were killings in each new area it located in.

Did some lateral research, by reading customer comments from each of this business' locations. Always the same. Rude waitresses and violent bouncers.

This business chain always located in college towns. Anyone familiar with my posts knows I took jobs every summer usually on a mgr/assist mgr level in the bars/rest. of Bloomington.

I learned something real about college town bars. 3/4 of the
waiters/waitresses HATE their clientele. They steal from them, rufie them, rob them, and take advantage of them any way they can.

Whomever these smiley face killers are, they are hostile towards good looking, well proportioned, usually tall, athletic
men who like to drink. or, alternatively, they may be attracted to them.

They rufied them, I use "rufie" vaguely because there are so many drugs besides actual rufies that work. These victims were on the top of their physical best, not easy to "take" without drugging them.


It has to be an employee working with at least one person inside and a car waiting outside, in a few cases a car trolling the stumbling victim was the last thing seen.

Only two survivors of this. Why would they lie? What is veeeeerrrry interesting is that one of the survivors was the nephew of the owner of the business that had the first victim.

He somehow dragged himself to a hospital and he was covered in river mud. He woke up from unconsciousness in the river that is across from this business, the only thing he vaguely remembers is someone yanking him in or out of a car.

Yes, totally agree that drunk guys fall into the water, but the
pattern of these murders is too delineated to be happenstance or even random murders carried out by unrelated people.

The business aforementioned is owned by guys who are also religious. K9s tracked one of the victims scent to a monastery. And then again to the same monastery. And then iirc there was a connection, a victim was connected to monk at monastery? as a student? will have to check that.
The "baptism" aspect of these drownings is obvious once you tie in the dogs signaling at monastery. Some famous person said to always be afraid of people who do bad things "for your own good," or, "for your own salvation." Killing you for your own salvation has been going on since the beginning of time.

Are we looking for an older priest involved who in the past coached athletics at a religious school? can of worms that would be, what? just a guess, moo.

We had a victim of the SFK here in BTown. Happy go lucky popular frat guy decides to drown himself after leaving his friends at THE same restaurant chain? uh-uh. The guy had a trip planned with his sis and was excited about it. The SFK
followed the same pattern of leaving some message to his sister that he was abruptly leaving the country and not to worry and
was found drowned at Lake Griffy.

I could go into minute detail, I spent hours on research but I don't want to get into trouble.

My theory? Some insane, "mad monk", possibly "down low",
iykwim, and ex-students with access started drugging young, handsome, athletic men in bars, tortured them, and
then "baptized" them by drowning them. They recruited disillusioned, resentful employees that fit their profile perfectly, probably blackmailed them or bribed them with $$$
to scout the perfect victim.

Do the research on how, where and when these victims turned up and match it to the openings of this restaurant, which is next door to the restaurant where the first victim was before he was abducted and drowned.

Very easy to see the connection, I am the worst researcher on here.

You will see that this restaurant named a sandwich after the restaurant next door where the first victim came from; then opened a branch in a Colorado city that had the same sandwich name, and lo and behold, SFK victim right there and then! SFK had made it West.
Hint:
look for the word, "tree." BTW, tree restaurant closed, other restaurant chain still going. but floundering a bit.

Wait. Sfk is in Colorado now?

 

[carolann0308]

"My theory? Some insane, "mad monk", possibly "down low",
iykwim, and ex-students with access started drugging young, handsome, athletic men in bars, tortured them, and
then "baptized" them by drowning them. They recruited disillusioned, resentful employees that fit their profile perfectly, probably blackmailed them or bribed them with $$$
to scout the perfect victim."

Why? Because being drunk and falling down seems too simple?

 

[Ixchel13]

"My theory? Some insane, "mad monk", possibly "down low",
iykwim, and ex-students with access started drugging young, handsome, athletic men in bars, tortured them, and
then "baptized" them by drowning them. They recruited disillusioned, resentful employees that fit their profile perfectly, probably blackmailed them or bribed them with $$$
to scout the perfect victim."

Why? Because being drunk and falling down seems too simple?

Carolann0308, sorry, but that question has been debated, actually my opinion changes with more
research but the need to rationalize stays about the same.

 

[Chloebear3]

IMO, I bet the numbers are completely reversed. LE thinks maybe a few might be homicides, the rest accidental drownings and suicides. IMO, it's more like a few accidents and suicides, the rest murders.

Ixchel13 - my opinion as well

Wait. Sfk is in Colorado now?

Twilightangelslight - I've been researching these cases for years and there are very few states in which they are not

 

[catlarmen]

While,I respect your opinion.
I feel differently...almost like jon lacina...found in a stairwell...they ruled it a drunken accident...I feel the people behind these "disappearances" or "drownings" or even "suicides"...in some cases...are making some look like these things...or having them "staged" as so.
another one is Wade Steffey...found in electric room...the very same one that had been searched. There's more...If you fully research all these cases you'll see what I mean. OF COURSE MOO!

I agree with you completely.

 

[catlarmen]

Who could do these awful crimes?
Who hates the U.S. and vows to destroy it and the Western cultures?
Who is organized and skilled in grab and kill techniques?
Who can operate and go undetected?
Who is interested in engineering students and the information they may have about nuclear power?
Who could carry out these crimes for so long and not be caught?


Gee, I couldn't possibly guess...

Exactly.

 

[catlarmen]

I disagree with your theory.. These men are being targeted and possibly drugged. So many men have died.

After years of researching these deaths, I agree.

 

[Ixchel13]

After years of researching these deaths, I agree.

what has your research led you to believe?

 

[Ixchel13]

Kayak found, but teen still missing as search continues on Ohio River


as we can see, Jacob first disappeared Jan 11 but his body has just been found this week 100 miles away in a river, when his parents assumed he was going to a lake. His parents received a weird text telling them he was kayaking on the Ohio River and they panicked, telling him to get out of the water immediately. He never texted back. SFK are known to send weird texts on the vic's phone to mislead family and friends. Interesting to see as this unfolds how long he had been in the weater.

 

[nola]

No theory, yet. But a few questions for those who have followed these cases....
From my limited knowledge, it appears that these young men have physical, socioeconomic, and situational similarities (age range, college students, athletic, out with friends, started feeling sick/possibly drugged, or drunk, left group alone, and obviously found dead in water, etc), but is there perhaps a common motive behind why these men were targeted. Is there anything in their past that might connect them?
Did any of these guys have previous allegations of any type in their past? I keep circling back to a vigilante type motive in my mind. I mean no disrespect to these victims, so please forgive if this is totally off base. Did any of these men have a juvenile record, or cases dismissed in their past?
Thanks for helping me catch up on the specific of these cases.

 

[Ixchel13]

Kayak found, but teen still missing as search continues on Ohio River


as we can see, Jacob first disappeared Jan 11 but his body has just been found this week 100 miles away in a river, when his parents assumed he was going to a lake. His parents received a weird text telling them he was kayaking on the Ohio River and they panicked, telling him to get out of the water immediately. He never texted back. SFK are known to send weird texts on the vic's phone to mislead family and friends. Interesting to see as this unfolds how long he had been in the weater.

ok correction: He didn't text dad, dad looked up his location on GPS and found he was supposedly kayaking in a dangerous current on the river and dad texted him to get out of water immediately! Sorry.