What's eating you alive re this case?

[Nom de plume]

I think that even if we knew what happened there’d still be a thousand ‘whys’. There are too many things that don’t make sense in any scenario.

I’ve spent some years trying to convince myself that the Ramseys aren’t guilty – because I don’t want them to be. It’s easier to believe that an intruder/stranger abused JonBenet’s body before, during, after. As it is, I’ve never been able to convince myself of that.

Here are a few things that won’t allow me to think they didn’t do it:

The lies – this is not anything new to anyone here, so there has never been a reason to mention it for the millionth time. Lying is hiding – always.

But, now I’m going to mention a couple of things that are so small that they’ll likely sound silly to others, and I’m sorry, they’re some of the things I can’t move passed, and are things I was going to mention in Dave’s Insane Thread, eventually, but changed my mind.

Their book – The Death of Innocence. This book was so boring, so poorly written and poorly edited that I couldn’t finish it. I’ve tried to force myself to read on more than once, but the arrogance and pride outweigh any sorrow. I've read enough.
Much of the time I would think John was speaking it was Patsy, and vice-versa.
Too much ink was wasted with them trying to convince readers of how successful and smart they were and how it came to be. Most of it was irrelevant to the subject, to JonBenet. I would summarize what I read as John and Patsy patting their own successful, egotistical backs. Remember – I did not finish reading this book.
Anyway, so many opportunities were wasted by their arrogance. Arrogance should not outweigh sadness.
They took advantage of a horrific situation to congratulate themselves – of course, this doesn’t make them guilty.

Coat and shoes – Unless I’ve missed any comments about this I’ve never heard it mentioned, and I’ve looked around. This bugs me almost more than anything. Yes, it’s a little crazy, but it keeps me from believing in that intruder.
It was cold, it had been snowing.
If I were Patsy and thought my kid had been taken from the home I’d be nuts wondering if she had a coat and shoes on. Nuts wondering if she was cold. I’d tell the police if her coat and shoes were missing or not. And, if not, I wouldn’t be able to focus on much more than her not having her coat and shoes. Yet, I’ve never heard whether Patsy mentioned anything about these things. Her not wondering tells me she knew she didn’t need them.

Does this prove they’re guilty? No. But, I think about it every time I try to think of an intruder theory. And, besides the obvious, that’s what “eats me alive” (thread title) about this case.

:goodpost:

What a great point about the shoes & coat! I've never thought about that before but you are absolutely right!! What mother wouldn't have been obsessed with worrying about her being cold? Well, apparently Patsy. If she had ever mentioned that, LA would have said something about it. She was PR's biggest fan and I have no doubt she would have been sure to talk about it if PR had ever said anything of the sort.

Yes, DOI was nauseating wasn't it? I couldn't finish it either. I also refused to give them :twocents: for it so I checked it out of the library! :floorlaugh: One of these days I'll try to finish it. I understand TOSOS is just full of revealing info on JR too. Again, some day....

 

[Meara]

What bothers me most is the betrayal. What safer, happier place could a little girl be than in her own bed on Christmas night, in the midst of her family? But for JonBenet, it was a night of torment and brutal death, and the horrible realization that someone close meant to end her life.

Equally troubling is the uncanny strangeness of the case. I remember those first news reports and the clenching in my gut. The story was weird from day one and has never become less so. I have often thought that if the whole story were ever to come out, we would learn of some element of it so disturbingly "off" that it would have been a near miracle if we'd guessed it. What is that missing piece that our reasoning and conjecturing circle around and around but cannot see? I have sensed at points in the parents' statements and interviews a feeling of relief at JBR's death. Has anyone else ever noticed that? The relief, the weirdness and the missing piece are all connected, but beyond that I cannot make it out.

 

[M.James]

What mother wouldn't have been obsessed with worrying about her being cold? Well, apparently Patsy. If she had ever mentioned that, LA would have said something about it. She was PR's biggest fan and I have no doubt she would have been sure to talk about it if PR had ever said anything of the sort.

I appreciate that. I always have a hard time submitting those things because they seem so small in such a giant case. I feel like I’m nitpicking.

I bought Death of Innocence from ebay years ago. It was used, so Ramseys never made money off of me. I figured (and still do) there is something in there worth reading (one word, or a lie disguised as the truth). Of course, they did talk around the case as much as possible – that would help avoid any slip-ups.

**
I have another ‘small’ question for anyone who knows – usually the police ask description questions like what the missing person was wearing. Does anyone know if that was asked, and what the answer was?

 

[Darlene733510]

What bothers me the most about this case is that it is at a standstill. We know that there is a lot of evidence we haven't even heard about. We know that AH decided what should be sent for testing, and theories by JK and ST were ignored. We only have been told about the GJ decision, but haven't read all of the transcript.
We have no phone records, and the medical files are sealed.
What angers me the most is that the DA doesn't care that a 6 year old child was murdered,
and he doesn't have the guts to bring justice for JBR.
AH and ML should be ashamed of themselves, but someday they will be judged, and that is good enough for me.

 

[DeDee]

I think that even if we knew what happened there’d still be a thousand ‘whys’. There are too many things that don’t make sense in any scenario.

I’ve spent some years trying to convince myself that the Ramseys aren’t guilty – because I don’t want them to be. It’s easier to believe that an intruder/stranger abused JonBenet’s body before, during, after. As it is, I’ve never been able to convince myself of that.

Here are a few things that won’t allow me to think they didn’t do it:

The lies – this is not anything new to anyone here, so there has never been a reason to mention it for the millionth time. Lying is hiding – always.

But, now I’m going to mention a couple of things that are so small that they’ll likely sound silly to others, and I’m sorry, they’re some of the things I can’t move passed, and are things I was going to mention in Dave’s Insane Thread, eventually, but changed my mind.

Their book – The Death of Innocence. This book was so boring, so poorly written and poorly edited that I couldn’t finish it. I’ve tried to force myself to read on more than once, but the arrogance and pride outweigh any sorrow. I've read enough.
Much of the time I would think John was speaking it was Patsy, and vice-versa.
Too much ink was wasted with them trying to convince readers of how successful and smart they were and how it came to be. Most of it was irrelevant to the subject, to JonBenet. I would summarize what I read as John and Patsy patting their own successful, egotistical backs. Remember – I did not finish reading this book.
Anyway, so many opportunities were wasted by their arrogance. Arrogance should not outweigh sadness.
They took advantage of a horrific situation to congratulate themselves – of course, this doesn’t make them guilty.

Coat and shoes – Unless I’ve missed any comments about this I’ve never heard it mentioned, and I’ve looked around. This bugs me almost more than anything. Yes, it’s a little crazy, but it keeps me from believing in that intruder.
It was cold, it had been snowing.
If I were Patsy and thought my kid had been taken from the home I’d be nuts wondering if she had a coat and shoes on. Nuts wondering if she was cold. I’d tell the police if her coat and shoes were missing or not. And, if not, I wouldn’t be able to focus on much more than her not having her coat and shoes. Yet, I’ve never heard whether Patsy mentioned anything about these things. Her not wondering tells me she knew she didn’t need them.

Does this prove they’re guilty? No. But, I think about it every time I try to think of an intruder theory. And, besides the obvious, that’s what “eats me alive” (thread title) about this case.

Coat and shoes

JonBenet's coat was left inside the Jaquar after returning home from the White's or, at least, her mother thinks it was the coat her daughter wore.

From Patsy's 6/98 interview:

TOM HANEY: Photo 63.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
TRIP DEMUTH: Which vehicle did you take to the lake, was that the white Jaquar, is that what that is?
PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Yeah, I'm almost sure. Yeah, I think it is. And there is JonBenet's coat back there.
TRIP DEMUTH: Is that the coat she wore that night?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I think so.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm



There is an older thread that contains interesting comments regarding "Socks? Was Jon Benet wearing them?"

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121763"]Socks? Was Jon Benet wearing them? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]



Knowing the little coat was one of the last things that kept my very alive and safe daughter warm, it would have been snuggled with me the entire first year. Sister Socks, the favorite stuffed animal, would, too. Patsy did not seek out the cherished Sister Socks when she suspected her daughter was kidnapped. IIRC, it was several days later when Priscilla obtained JonBenet's favorite stuffed kitty in time for her memorial service.


OMO

 

[MeanDonnaJean]

...This girl has only us, ordinary people who come together on a message board trying to find some justice and answers for her; or the investigators who went out of the way to try to get her justice (ST, JK)

!!!Hear, hear!!!

Bravo, Venom.

BRAVO!!!!!

 

[tweezybird]

Coat and shoes

JonBenet's coat was left inside the Jaquar after returning home from the White's or, at least, her mother thinks it was the coat her daughter wore.

From Patsy's 6/98 interview:

TOM HANEY: Photo 63.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
TRIP DEMUTH: Which vehicle did you take to the lake, was that the white Jaquar, is that what that is?
PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Yeah, I'm almost sure. Yeah, I think it is. And there is JonBenet's coat back there.
TRIP DEMUTH: Is that the coat she wore that night?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I think so.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm



There is an older thread that contains interesting comments regarding "Socks? Was Jon Benet wearing them?"

Socks? Was Jon Benet wearing them? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



Knowing the little coat was one of the last things that kept my very alive and safe daughter warm, it would have been snuggled with me the entire first year. Sister Socks, the favorite stuffed animal, would, too. Patsy did not seek out the cherished Sister Socks when she suspected her daughter was kidnapped. IIRC, it was several days later when Priscilla obtained JonBenet's favorite stuffed kitty in time for her memorial service.


OMO

I'm confused. I thought they drove a Jeep that night. How would her coat be in the Jag?

 

[MeanDonnaJean]

As far as the Rs calling over their friends, clergy and "victim's advocates"...

So true. That strange occurrence appeared to be THE MOST PREMEDITATED MOVE EVER. Those would be the LAST people I would call if my kid went missing. I would however be calling 911, local police, FBI, CIA, bloodhounds, helicopters, scuba divers, etc. etc....whatever it took to find him/her.

Why on earth would you need to call your friends? Especially at the God-awful hour of 6 a.m. What on earth could they possibly do? Comfort you? You have a husband to comfort you {supposedly...so that right there spoke volumes about their relationship}.

But if by some strange chance I DID happen to call on some friends I sure wouldn't want them hanging around my house all day long. I'd expect them to actually DO something, like, hmmmmm....maybe go out and LQQK for my kid? Something like THAT might be just a tad MORE helpful, no?

 

[CorallaroC]

Well, in my recent re-readings of the parent's interviews, I was a bit astonished by the vagueness regarding coats, shoes, and other things small-as-they-might-be-but-yet-important-to-a-kid regarding the children's items, and also the parents (regarding jackets, footwear, etc) considering it was wintertime. In winter, certain things are IMPORTANT, and I certainly agree that it is odd such little mention/recollection was ever made of those things, even when pressed by LE. As for the children's items, like the santa bear that was declared a major mystery but later found to be JB's PRIZE from a recent pageant. Until recently, my own opinion was that the family's trauma so severe none of these small things mattered. But were these things ever brought up in the R's wordy/highly detailed books, anyone know?

For example: In the interview with JR 1998, I saw mention of BR's aquarium in his room:
link: http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TRNA2SNEL1HIS3E6R

24 LOU SMIT: Could you ever hear Burke talk

25 in

0119

1 his sleep?

2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember, no.

3 LOU SMIT: In Burke's room, does he have an

4 aquarium?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.

6 LOU SMIT: Can you describe any noises that

7 that makes?

8 JOHN RAMSEY: It just has a normal pump. It

9 was (INAUDIBLE), it's not particularly noisy.

then this from daily camera 9-11-97 - sniped from:
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/09/11-1.html

"Earlier this summer, two Ramsey family representatives agreed to show a Daily Camera reporter through the house, on the condition that the information not be printed until a later date. This week, following revelations that Sawyer would show the home on "Prime Time Live," the Daily Camera was given permission to publish a rough description of the house. Many of the family's personal effects, including a fish tank containing fish belonging to JonBenet's 10-year-old brother Burke Ramsey, furniture, and books - including "When Goodbye is Forever: How to Deal with the Death of a Child" on John Ramsey's night table - were still on the premises during the June tour."

BR's fish tank still had fish in it in June of the following year? Of course comparied to losing his sister to a Murderer! is far beyond any concern about fish in a fish tank, but my gosh, did anyone ever ask BR what he needed or wanted from the house? That poor child, did no one even bother to ask him?!?

all JMO, but it bothers me!

 

[Anyhoo]

So true. That strange occurrence appeared to be THE MOST PREMEDITATED MOVE EVER. Those would be the LAST people I would call if my kid went missing. I would however be calling 911, local police, FBI, CIA, bloodhounds, helicopters, scuba divers, etc. etc....whatever it took to find him/her.

Why on earth would you need to call your friends? Especially at the God-awful hour of 6 a.m. What on earth could they possibly do? Comfort you? You have a husband to comfort you {supposedly...so that right there spoke volumes about their relationship}.

But if by some strange chance I DID happen to call on some friends I sure wouldn't want them hanging around my house all day long. I'd expect them to actually DO something, like, hmmmmm....maybe go out and LQQK for my kid? Something like THAT might be just a tad MORE helpful, no?

If the parents really believed there had been a kidnapping, then it would make sense and be human nature for them call their friends over to give them solace and support, but as we know now, the parents did not believe in the kidnapping ever. So, calling over the people can be said to be three things:

1. It was part of the cover story of kidnapping, because it would be perfectly natural for the Ramsey's to want solace and support in that case. They did it to support the kidnapping lie.

2. The people called over were a shield to protect the Ramsey's from LE who were the house that day. This has already been discussed.

3. One or both of the Ramsey parents may have genuinely needed comfort that morning, knowing JB was dead (even if no one else knew it yet). They were hurting and they needed comfort. Even the murderer may have needed comfort over the death of JB.

 

[Venom]

Coat and shoes

JonBenet's coat was left inside the Jaquar after returning home from the White's or, at least, her mother thinks it was the coat her daughter wore.

From Patsy's 6/98 interview:

TOM HANEY: Photo 63.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
TRIP DEMUTH: Which vehicle did you take to the lake, was that the white Jaquar, is that what that is?
PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Yeah, I'm almost sure. Yeah, I think it is. And there is JonBenet's coat back there.
TRIP DEMUTH: Is that the coat she wore that night?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I think so.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm



There is an older thread that contains interesting comments regarding "Socks? Was Jon Benet wearing them?"

Socks? Was Jon Benet wearing them? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



Knowing the little coat was one of the last things that kept my very alive and safe daughter warm, it would have been snuggled with me the entire first year. Sister Socks, the favorite stuffed animal, would, too. Patsy did not seek out the cherished Sister Socks when she suspected her daughter was kidnapped. IIRC, it was several days later when Priscilla obtained JonBenet's favorite stuffed kitty in time for her memorial service.


OMO

I thought they were in the jeep that night? But either way, how can someone forget the coat that their kid wore the night before?

 

[BOESP]

Iirc, the Jaguar trip was on a different night and it involved driving to the lake to see the lighted star on the mountain. Iirc, Patsy said it was traditional to drive up there to see it. Sorry, but I don't remember where I read this but probably in Steve Thomas's book or Perfect Murder, Perfect Town.

 

[questfortrue]

The info in PMPt is contradictd by JR's Interview June 23, 1998; he claims he drove the white Jag to the White's party. ACR info.

LOU SMIT: Now, when you go up to the Whites,

13 what time do you think it was that you left your

14 house?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it seemed like it was

16 4:30, 5:00, somewhere in that range, as I recall.

17 It was an early dinner. The kids wanted to play

18 together.

19 LOU SMIT: And when you say (together̃, who

20 is that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: With Fleet, Junior, Daphne White.

22 And Fleet and Burke were buddies, and Daphne and

23 JonBenet were buddies. That was a nice setup.

24 LOU SMIT: Now later on the evening, I know

25 you dropped some presents off at different places.

0099

1 And I want to go back to the presents a little bit

2 again. Someone would have had to load them into

3 the car. Do your remember anything about that?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't. I don't remember

5 loading anything.

6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Which car did you take?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: We took Patsy's white Jaguar.

8 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now I noticed you had another

9 vehicle in the garage. What was that?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: It should have been a black

11 Grand Cherokee.

12 LOU SMIT: And whose was that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: That was mine.

 

[Nom de plume]

WRT the socks & coat. I think the original point was not the coat she wore the night before, or the socks. It was the fact that Patsy didn't even bother to worry about whether or not she had a coat or shoes on when she was "kidnapped".

 

[KKazoo87]

Iirc, the Jaguar trip was on a different night and it involved driving to the lake to see the lighted star on the mountain. Iirc, Patsy said it was traditional to drive up there to see it. Sorry, but I don't remember where I read this but probably in Steve Thomas's book or Perfect Murder, Perfect Town.

I believe it was in DOI. Patsy said JB was "miffed" they wouldn't let her out of the car while looking at the star. JBR had dress clothes/shoes on at the time and that was Patsy's reason for keeping her in the car on that trip.

Or this. 1997 interigation w/ TT and ST:

PR: And then we drove around town looking at Christmas lights and we drove up to the star up on the mountain there and um, I remember JonBenet was miffed because we wouldn't let her get out and she wanted to walk up into the star . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: And uh, she just had her little velvet Sunday school shoes on, you know, so she was, she said, 'Well, what's the use coming up here if you can't even go up to the star.' Um, so then we came down, down from the star and we wound around by the White's house and uh, I think, and we went in there for a few minutes and uh, then we went home.

As always, thanks to ACandyRose :seeya:

 

[lonetraveler]

Let me see, name of thread is "What is eating me alive regarding this case". Well, I fully expected to hear Patsy Ramsey confess prior to her death and I was very disappointed when she didn't. I figured that she would confess that she killed Jon Benet if the son did it just to stop any finger pointing at him. I figured that she would also confess if she killed Jon Benet for the same reason, to protect her son from any accusations. But! She didn't confess. I'm curious as to WHY NOT. Why on earth would she not confess prior to her death or even in a letter to be read after her death? There are times that I think that she was still furious at both Jon Benet and Burke for screwing up her "perfect" life and she wasn't going to accept any responsibility for any action on her part for what happened to Jon Benet. IMO, she put the full responsibility of Jon Benet's death on Jon Benet.

 

[M.James]

WRT the socks & coat. I think the original point was not the coat she wore the night before, or the socks. It was the fact that Patsy didn't even bother to worry about whether or not she had a coat or shoes on when she was "kidnapped".

Yes. Thank you. I assume you're talking about my post. I realize I confuse people a lot of the time. But, you're right, I was wondering if Patsy had even worried or wondered (to the police or anyone else) whether JonBenet was wearing a coat or shoes when "taken".
If my child were truly missing (kidnapped) in the winter I'd be worried to death whether she had a coat or shoes. I'd be checking closets, coat racks, etc. You know she had more than one coat and shoes.

I apologize if I confused people (again), although I appreciate your responses regardless.

Again, I'd be interested to know if there is a description given to police of what JonBenet was wearing last time she was seen? Surely police asked for descriptions. There's got to be a record of that somewhere, doesn't there?

 

[madeleine]

I was thinking...maybe this case will be solved in 25,50 years or so when scientists will come up with a lie detector test/machine that will be 100% accurate... :dunno:

cause there are tons of red flags I see re the R's behavior/body language and in their interviews (media AND police ones)

 

[madeleine]

speaking of which,you gotta admire their lawyers for this...they always admitted to have taken medication before the interviews...were they afraid that the cops have their reactions(altered or not) analyzed behind the scenes?plus,they always could have argued in court hey,what I said doesn't count,I was on drugs?

anyway,smart move,I like it

 

[madeleine]

But! She didn't confess. I'm curious as to WHY NOT.

she was married to one of the most arrogant,calculated,manipulative men I've ever seen,that's why,IMO

IMO, she put the full responsibility of Jon Benet's death on Jon Benet.

they BOTH seem to have done it,that's what's WEIRD!they both seem very detached,they wanna distance themselves from her (not necessarily the crime,but her)..."THAT child"..."NO,we don't know that she was assaulted",etc,etc,etc,long list...