Who do you think the Zodiac Killer actually is?

[CaMan60]

tiny minority did any hunting whatsoever.
We don't know he had a past with guns at all. He used an increasingly common gun type, semi auto handguns.
As far as brand of ammo, that is meaningless. Western was a very very common brand making billions of rounds.

He gave us some clues, and even wrote in a letter about the ammo that he used. I find it appalling that you would toss-out idea's about the guns he used. A search online now shows about 25 -30 percent of California households have guns Of those some have one, some have many with the average working out to about 5.
Since The Zodiac used different guns he must have been someone with multiple guns. So where did he get them ? Someone at the time knew this guy and knew he had guns.
But the case has not been solved all we have is pieces of a puzzle to go on.

 

[AC4RD]

He gave us some clues, and even wrote in a letter about the ammo that he used. I find it appalling that you would toss-out idea's about the guns he used. A search online now shows about 25 -30 percent of California households have guns Of those some have one, some have many with the average working out to about 5.
Since The Zodiac used different guns he must have been someone with multiple guns. So where did he get them ? Someone at the time knew this guy and knew he had guns.
But the case has not been solved all we have is pieces of a puzzle to go on.

Just MHO: I don't believe @Diogenetic meant to reject any ideas specifically. As I read his (or her) message, it seems to me just to be saying there's no reason to think Zodiac was what we might call a "gun nut." Virtually anybody might well have a small-caliber handgun in the house, then as well as now. Or even several.

My own dad was a liberal college professor but he kept a small semiauto .22LR he used for occasional plinking (I still have that gun; it's older than I am.) You're right that he "probably had multiple guns" in my own opinion--but if he WAS a gun guy, he would have known that rifling marks could be identified to specific guns, so he might well have bought handguns (IMO) for specific events and then discarded them. It's possible he didn't even routinely own a gun--he might have picked up one at a pawnshop for each killing and then tossed it afterward.

As far as "where did he get them?," at the time of the Zodiac killings, where I lived (south Louisiana) you could walk into almost any hardware store, department store, or pawnshop, and buy handguns without any restrictions other than (IIRC) age. As recently as the mid-1980s, my brother bought a .357 at a neighborhood hardware store.

I think @Diogenetic mostly just meant the guns used don't really give us many clues at all--virtually anybody might have left the same evidence, from a little old lady to a crazed cop-wannabe. Just MHO again.

I quite agree with you that we have very very little to go on. And DNA is IMO useless--at the time, nobody knew about it, nobody had any reason to save and properly store samples. This is one that will very probably (again, IMO) never be solved--like Saucy Jack, there are too many possibilities and virtually no actual physical evidence.

Several regulars here (including me) have pointed out how easy it is to read a book or a website and say "That MUST be the Zodiac!" based on nothing but a resemblance to a police sketch and/or 'evidence' that the subject of the article was regarded as eccentric or hostile by a few people who knew him. No actual evidence, just vague suspicions and slanted writing.

The great example of this IMO is that first Graysmith book, which identified "Lee" (being discreet) as Zodiac. Many people, including me, agreed with the book, at first. It sounded so convincing! And then later we are told that he was ruled out (though I still don't know WHY, exactly.)

It's easy to write a book claiming that Junius Brutus Booth, not his brother John Wilkes Booth, shot Lincoln, and easy to pile up suspicions and suppositions and claims about it, and to convince people who don't apply critical thinking to it--witness the Hodel books ("My dad was the Black Dahlia killer! And also the Zodiac! And he shot JFK from the TSBD! And my dad also shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand!"). Lots of vague claims, not a single piece of actual evidence.

I got to rambling there, sorry, but the point remains: the guns-used issue really doesn't narrow the field of suspects. Best! --ken

 

[Oakie]

He gave us some clues, and even wrote in a letter about the ammo that he used. I find it appalling that you would toss-out idea's about the guns he used. A search online now shows about 25 -30 percent of California households have guns Of those some have one, some have many with the average working out to about 5.
Since The Zodiac used different guns he must have been someone with multiple guns. So where did he get them ? Someone at the time knew this guy and knew he had guns.
But the case has not been solved all we have is pieces of a puzzle to go on.

Before 1968 (which is likely the period when he acquired them, if, indeed, they were his), the Federal gov't did not collect records of firearms purchases. Furthermore, he could have purchased the firearms in nearly any state at that time; the pool of potential owners of any of those common guns was enormous. Absent the firearm itself, and a spent bullet retrieved from a victim, there is practically nothing to go on here.

 

[CaMan60]

I quite agree with you that we have very very little to go on. And DNA is IMO useless--at the time, nobody knew about it, nobody had any reason to save and properly store samples. This is one that will very probably (again, IMO) never be solved--like Saucy Jack, there are too many possibilities and virtually no actual physical evidence.

There is little to go on that would stand up in court if it even got that far. The DNA evidence used now adays is amazing. It may not help in this case and our time is, better spent on cases that it has. There have been convictions over turned with DNA evidence and people where cleared of charges.
Most of the Zodiac suspects are had nothing to do with crime and their Names and pictures should be removed from lists. And the last post had a good point about the guns not having to be registered before 1968. That does make a difference to this case and many others.

 

[Richard]

The Zodiac killer probably would not have discarded any weapon that he used in his murders. I say this based on various clues that indicate him to be a rather frugal and cheap kind of person. His costume was described as home made. The description of his bayonet/knife indicated that he had modified it. All this would have taken a lot of time and effort. He didn't just buy expensive hunting equipment, he made do with stuff from a surplus store - or possibly with military issue items he had saved.

 

[Richard]

As far as we know for certain it was just three guns used, possibly just two. In one the four confirmed cases were a gun was involved it was only brandished and that gun while visually identified by a non expert as a 1911 could have eaily been a browning highs power. so we can only say he used for certain two guns, as changing out the barrel on a Browning High power takes about 10 seconds and would account for differences in ballistics markings. So three shootings, and one brandishing were likely at most three different guns, and perfectly plausibly just two.

As far as assertion that semi auto handguns were rare at the time, they were not. Commercially successful semi auto pistols were around since 1880s and widely adopted since 1890s. Fore example 20-round magazine fed mouser pistol was being mass produced in large numbers in 1890s.
They were the vast majority of sidearm/handguns used by the US military at that time. In fact begining in WWI the military transitioned from revolvers to semi-auto handguns. In the civilian/police market they were somewhat less common than revolvers but this was a transition time. One also has to consider context. This was not the UK or Europe, but the US where having 30% of handgun market was 30% of millions of guns per year, and total number of guns near 100 million at the time.

I don't think there is much to learn or conclude with the type of gun/s used in these killings unless we actually recover the specific guns used, which is almost certainly not going to happen. The killer got the drop on his victims, so he could have shot them with a five shot revolver just as well as with a .22, 9mm,or 45.

Zodiac's use of several different handguns is, in a way, part of his Modus Operandi (MO). His victims and crimes were connected in other ways, mainly through his writings and later by including pieces of Mr. Stine's shirt.

You are correct, I think, in saying that he had at least three different automatic pistols (maybe four). The police recovered bullets which bore rifling marks, but they also recovered expended shell casings which also had identifying marks on them. In fact, this is how investigators were able to state that there were two different Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistols used. Not only the rifling marks, but also marks made on the primers of the fired shell casings. More parts than just the barrel would have needed replacement to make totally separate identifying marks.

The US Military did transition to an automatic pistol (the 1911 Colt .45 ACP) prior to World War One, but there were still many revolvers in US Military service well into the 1980's. They did not begin transition to a 9mm pistol and round until 1986. Most police agencies were armed with revolvers - mostly the .38 special and the .357 magnum (which can also fire the .38 special round) at the time of the Zodiac killings.

Good forensic evidence exists from the murder weapons which could be compared, even today, with a suspected pistol, should one be found to test fire and compare.

 

[Richard]

The most solid evidence would indicate that Zodiac committed a series of four attacks which resulted in five deaths and two seriously wounded victims.

Those four attacks took place between December 1968 and October 1969. Four different firearms were used during the course of each of those attacks. During the third attack, which took place at Lake Berryessa, California, one of the two victims, Bryan Hartnell, did survive.

Hartnell described the assailant as being hooded and armed with both an automatic pistol (which Hartnell saw up close and described as possibly being a Model 1911 Colt .45) and a foot-long bayonet-type knife which had a wooden handle with brass rivets or screws through the handle. The sheath holding the knife was described as made of wood.

After tying up the two Lake Berryessa victims, the assailant stabbed them numerous times with the described knife. No weapon was found at the crime scene at the time.

Some months or years later, a Lee Metford bayonet was found by an individual at Lake Berryessa, but it was not (to my knowledge) connected officially to the attack or identified by LE as the murder weapon.

Here is a photo of a bayonet similar to the Lake Berryessa weapon described by the victim.


British Lee Metford Bayonet of Boer War time, shortened and sharpened.



Cecelia Ann Shepard (1947-1969)
Stabbed to death at Lake Berryessa, California, on 29 September 1969.

 

[AC4RD]

The most solid evidence would indicate that Zodiac committed a series of four attacks which resulted in five deaths and two seriously wounded victims.

Those four attacks took place between December 1968 and October 1969. Four different firearms were used during the course of each of those attacks. During the third attack, which took place at Lake Berryessa, California, one of the two victims, Bryan Hartnell, did survive.

Hartnell described the assailant as being hooded and armed with both an automatic pistol (which Hartnell saw up close and described as possibly being a Model 1911 Colt .45) and a foot-long bayonet-type knife which had a wooden handle with brass rivets or screws through the handle. The sheath holding the knife was described as made of wood.

After tying up the two Lake Berryessa victims, the assailant stabbed them numerous times with the described knife. No weapon was found at the crime scene at the time.

Some months or years later, a Lee Metford bayonet was found by an individual at Lake Berryessa, but it was not (to my knowledge) connected officially to the attack or identified by LE as the murder weapon.

Here is a photo of a bayonet similar to the Lake Berryessa weapon described by the victim.


British Lee Metford Bayonet of Boer War time, shortened and sharpened.



Cecelia Ann Shepard (1947-1969)
Stabbed to death at Lake Berryessa, California, on 29 September 1969.

The most solid evidence would indicate that Zodiac committed a series of four attacks which resulted in five deaths and two seriously wounded victims.

Those four attacks took place between December 1968 and October 1969. Four different firearms were used during the course of each of those attacks. During the third attack, which took place at Lake Berryessa, California, one of the two victims, Bryan Hartnell, did survive.

Hartnell described the assailant as being hooded and armed with both an automatic pistol (which Hartnell saw up close and described as possibly being a Model 1911 Colt .45) and a foot-long bayonet-type knife which had a wooden handle with brass rivets or screws through the handle. The sheath holding the knife was described as made of wood.

After tying up the two Lake Berryessa victims, the assailant stabbed them numerous times with the described knife. No weapon was found at the crime scene at the time.

Some months or years later, a Lee Metford bayonet was found by an individual at Lake Berryessa, but it was not (to my knowledge) connected officially to the attack or identified by LE as the murder weapon.

Here is a photo of a bayonet similar to the Lake Berryessa weapon described by the victim.


British Lee Metford Bayonet of Boer War time, shortened and sharpened.



Cecelia Ann Shepard (1947-1969)
Stabbed to death at Lake Berryessa, California, on 29 September 1969.

Very good, Richard, thanks! That bayonet looks like just the sort of thing I need in my garden!

Your comments about Zodiac's frugality and how his discarding weapons was therefore unlikely, were very well taken. I think I am the one who suggested that Zodiac might have tossed each gun in the Pacific after use; I'll withdraw the suggestion. --ken

 

[buyerninety]

@Richard said;
"In fact, this is how investigators were able to state that there were two different Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistols used."
Where is this stated?

"Some months or years later, a Lee Metford bayonet was found by an individual at Lake Berryessa"
Interesting. Where was this reported?

 

[Zapoleon]

The Zodiac killer probably would not have discarded any weapon that he used in his murders. I say this based on various clues that indicate him to be a rather frugal and cheap kind of person. His costume was described as home made. The description of his bayonet/knife indicated that he had modified it. All this would have taken a lot of time and effort. He didn't just buy expensive hunting equipment, he made do with stuff from a surplus store - or possibly with military issue items he had saved.

Perhaps. One would imagine though he would have been aware of the high risk keeping any of the weapons used was. It was probably one of the very few ways they could bang him to rights if they ever matched bullets to one of his guns. So dumping or getting rid of them seems like a very basic thing for him to have done.
But then again you see it all the time in cases criminals don't always make the logical choice.

 

[Winward1]

Zodiac Killer - The Stein Case

Zodiac Killer - Stein Case Suspect Descriptions

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Back during the Zodiac days, where I lived (Baton Rouge LA), one could buy a handgun at department stores, hardware stores, and classified ads, all perfectly routinely. If my memory is correct (which it not always is), a purchaser of a handgun had to be over 18, but IIRC no records were reported--a store might have a record of a handgun purchase, but that was a store-to-store issue, not universal.

I don't know about other states' rules, but in BTR you could buy a handgun from a stranger at a bar, no questions asked.

You can still do that today (private sale) in Ohio, AFAIK, for both handguns and long rifles. Nothing has to be documented.

 

[Winward1]

You might find this worthy of note: Lies Unravel in the Zodiac Killer Case

 

[Winward1]

This comparison was removed from the "Zodiac Killer Community" Facebook group in less than a minute: Zodiac Killer - Thoresen Handwriting Evidence

 

[Mystique81]

The top 3 named suspects IMO are Ross Sullivan, Richard Gaikowski, and William McDuff. I lean Sullivan if I had to pick. I know the height discrepancy but the circumstances in all of these sightings could lead to a mistake on that front. (Mageau only saw him for a split second (while seated in a car) with a spotlight in his face, Hartnell was super tall himself and was also tied up and laid down very shortly after being abrupted by Z in a hood, and the teenagers saw him from up above in very dark conditions.) I know it's an obstacle but I think the height estimates could be off.

I am pretty convinced Cherry Jo Bates was the first Z victim because the letters written + desk poem sound like the same guy. The phrasing and thought patterns seem EERILY similar to the Z letters. And we have Ross Sullivan in that library on the murder night (in fact worked there so he could have carved the bottom of the desk whenever). Some have said his handwriting is as close as they've seen to the Z and CJB letters. We have his personality and interests documented as coinciding with the types of things Zodiac wrote about (Mikado, theater, cyphers, etc). We have him disappearing from the library for weeks after the CJB murder (possibly scratched up?) and acting totally different when he finally returned. Then we have him in and out of mental institutions and dying in the mid 70s, shortly after Zodiac's last letter. I can't put together that kind of circumstantial story that makes as much sense on any other named suspect. It's absolutely not proof of guilt but it fits better than any other circumstantial stabs (no pun intended) at figuring out the killer's identity.

 

[SolVic]

The top 3 named suspects IMO are Ross Sullivan, Richard Gaikowski, and William McDuff. I lean Sullivan if I had to pick. I know the height discrepancy but the circumstances in all of these sightings could lead to a mistake on that front. (Mageau only saw him for a split second (while seated in a car) with a spotlight in his face, Hartnell was super tall himself and was also tied up and laid down very shortly after being abrupted by Z in a hood, and the teenagers saw him from up above in very dark conditions.) I know it's an obstacle but I think the height estimates could be off.

I am pretty convinced Cherry Jo Bates was the first Z victim because the letters written + desk poem sound like the same guy. The phrasing and thought patterns seem EERILY similar to the Z letters. And we have Ross Sullivan in that library on the murder night (in fact worked there so he could have carved the bottom of the desk whenever). Some have said his handwriting is as close as they've seen to the Z and CJB letters. We have his personality and interests documented as coinciding with the types of things Zodiac wrote about (Mikado, theater, cyphers, etc). We have him disappearing from the library for weeks after the CJB murder (possibly scratched up?) and acting totally different when he finally returned. Then we have him in and out of mental institutions and dying in the mid 70s, shortly after Zodiac's last letter. I can't put together that kind of circumstantial story that makes as much sense on any other named suspect. It's absolutely not proof of guilt but it fits better than any other circumstantial stabs (no pun intended) at figuring out the killer's identity.

Yeah, in my opinion, it’s Ross Sullivan, Gary Poste, or some other unknown person.

 

[Oakie]

You can still do that today (private sale) in Ohio, AFAIK, for both handguns and long rifles. Nothing has to be documented.

By federal law, every store purchase (or purchase from or through anyone with a Federal Firearms License) of a firearm nationwide must be documented on a Federal Form 4473. This form is considered a permanent federal record and may not be destroyed or disposed of.

 

[Richard]

There were, in all probability, a number of different persons who claimed to by the Zodiac in various phone calls, messages, and letters.

The actual "Zodiac" serial killer, who committed murders on four separate occasions (between December 1968 and October 1969), in all probability was the person who wrote most of the early letters taking credit for them - to taunt the police and terrorize the San Francisco area. However, he often took credit in those letters for later crimes that others were found guilty of having committed. Since he lied and took credit for those crimes, his later claims have to be suspected of being lies or exaggerations as well.

It is also a good possibility that others committed "copy cat" murders in the supposed style of Zodiac - or simply wanted to get into the act by copying his writing style.

It is possible that the original "Zodiac" had connections with other persons who subsequently died at the hands of others. An example might be Donna Lass, who had previously worked at Letterman Army Hospital at the Presidio, San Francisco, but who went missing and was likely murdered in Reno. Some remains were recently identified as hers through DNA testing.

Perhaps Zodiac is a conglomeration of killers and hoaxers.

 

[Richard]

Here are a few sketches made of the Zodiac Killer back in the day. There have been many "revisions" and updates made over the years of these composite drawings. Also, there have been numerous comparisons made of these sketches with photos of potential matches of named individuals or sketches of unknown suspects in other similar crimes.

 

[Detroit]

I think he is connected with law enforcement and all that anti-cop stuff in his letters is just misdirection.

View attachment 371026

The red herrings appeal to me most, also in the EARONS (Jospeph James DeAngelo) case. Zodiac is painting himself as a cop-hating villain who can't even spell words. So, we are supposed to believe in this uneducated cop hater hiding in the shadows with a cloak and dagger. What should we do with that? Find the Zodiac in the opposite as we can with EARONS. You know what? It works! The Zodiac investigation has also looked at cops and the military. So, there is another clue for us.

1. Darlene Ferrin thought the Zodiac was a cop, and so did Mike Mageau. His witness statement includes that Ferrin thought he was a cop. Not some guy she knew or anything like that for this second car encounter. That is why Mageau had his I.D. out. So that's two Zodiac targets, one who survived, who thought Zodiac was a cop.
2. Zodiac used his flashlight to blind Ferrin and Mageau. EARONS also did this. One EARONS target thought she felt a police belt on him.
3. Zodiac understood cut-off techniques.
4. Zodiac understood jurisdictional problems and exploited them.
5. Zodiac understood switching up modus operandi helped him. EARONS did the same.
6. Zodiac ordered Hartnell and Shepard to their knees and went rear just like an arrest. EARONS subdued and tied up also.
7. Zodiac uses terminology in his letters associated with L.E. compliance commands. EARONS also did this verbally.
8. Collecting slaves in the afterlife is documented as a phrase some police officers used if they shot a black person.
9. Zodiac understood ballistic reports, and the first letters are like them.
10. The Zodiac uses ruse words like 'pig' which Joseph James DeAngelo also used as EARONS to misdirect.
11. Zodiac knew fireworks would delay police responses to gunshots. Zodiac knew how to escape mostly without being seen. EARONS also knew his escape routes.
12. Zodiac is forensically aware and understood that saliva on envelope seals could identify blood type even in 1969.
13. Zodiac reports. EARONS asked his targets to report things to law enforcement for him.
14. Zodiac was calm around cops when they showed up and got away.
15. Zodiac seemed to avoid stakeouts at Vallejo. So did VREARONS. It is believed he has inside knowledge and a police radio. Zodiac wrote a letter about how he would never blow up a police station, and then he said in the next letter he would kill a cop. I think he contradicted himself because he thought his sympathy was too revealing.
16. The close groups of spent cartridges indicate that the Zodiac has been trained to take a stance before firing and does not move while shooting. That would be firearms training proficiency even if one victim survived a gunshot attack.
At least some of these points are probably the indicators that investigators were dealing with someone like them. According to The Sacramento Bee, Vallejo police Detective Terry Poyser, who has worked the Zodiac case for four years, seemed to think that there was a possibility the Zodiac was LE and this was in 2019.

https://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article210320689.html

That is significant because a law enforcement background is extremely rare among serial killers. You could insert accountant or painter here, and it has the same rarity that stands out. So investigators in 2019 have law enforcement as the Zodiac in their sights.

Well DeAngelo would have been 23 years old at the time of the first recorded murder of Betty Lou Jensen and David Arthur Faraday on December 20, 1968. So this would be completely possible. We would have to go back and check his timeline, but it is probably a better chance than my theory. Very well stated and researched.