Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[Ivy]

What a remarkable cooincidence that the acute injury and the area of chronic inflammation were in the same place.

imo

 

[twizzler333]

What a remarkable cooincidence that the acute injury and the area of chronic inflammation were in the same place.

imo

How big do you think that area is? Not impossible or unlikely at all. The chronic inflammation IMO came from her chronic UTIs, which is not uncommon at all in children, especially little girls. I see it everyday.

 

[BlueCrab]

How big do you think that area is? Not impossible or unlikely at all. The chronic inflammation IMO came from her chronic UTIs, which is not uncommon at all in children, especially little girls. I see it everyday.

Twizzler,

JonBenet did indeed have chronic (old) injuries to the vagina. From the autopsy report:

"Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflamation. The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capiillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

IOW, the chronic inflamation on the lining of the vagina at the 7:00 position was eroded (worn away over a period of time) and there were no white corpuscles at that location (which rush to scene of an injury unless the injury is old).

JMO

 

[BlueCrab]

Twizzler,

JonBenet did indeed have chronic (old) injuries to the vagina. From the autopsy report:

"Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflamation. The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capiillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

IOW, the chronic inflamation on the lining of the vagina at the 7:00 position was eroded (worn away over a period of time) and there were no white corpuscles at that location (which rush to scene of an injury unless the injury is old).

JMO

Twizzler,

In addition to the above information in re' to chronic sexual abuse as reported in the autopsy report, I'd like to add this from the 1998 interviews:

"TOM HANEY: "Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are you aware that there had been prior vaginal intrusion on JonBenet?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No, I am not. Prior to the night she was killed?"

TOM HANEY: "Correct."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TOM HANEY: "And based on the reliable medical information that we have at this point, that is a fact."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Now when you say violated, what are you - what are you telling me here?"

TOM HANEY: "That there was some prior vaginal intrusion that something - something was inserted."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Prior to this night that she was assaulted?"

TOM HANEY: "That's the - "

PATSY RAMSEY: "... I am - I am - I don't - I am shocked."

JMO

 

[TLynn]

Good point, Sissi - re: Santa's trace and/or fiber.

Ya'all know, Santa was at that party too in regard to the "sexual abuse."

Did JonBenet "sit on Santa's lap...?"

 

[TressaRing28]

I believe it would be VERY important if the BPD didn't find any Santa hairs,after all he was in the home on the 23rd,and there was no "clean up" according to LHP after the party. Does this mean, his red fibers and his white hairs were dismissed as evidence BECAUSE of his visit on the 23rd.?
Did they also alibi their felon/mentally disturbed son,who had been to the home to deliver gingerbread houses?

Also, where would the glitter that Santa had in his beard be????? :waitasec: :waitasec: :waitasec: :waitasec: :waitasec:

 

[sissi]

Are you suggesting it is birefringent material? hmmm

 

[BlueCrab]

Tressa and sissi,

You appear to have something there.

Santa McReynold's glitter that he sprinkled into his beard could be considered "birefringent foreign material"'. According to the autopsy, birefringent foreign material was found in JonBenet's vagina.

I also wonder what the "artifact" was that was found on the tip of JonBenet's tongue.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

Even if the birefringent material found in JonBenet's vagina was Santa's glitter, it doesn't necessarily implicate McReynolds, since he'd been in the R house prior to JonBenet's murder sprinkling it. Anyway, I thought it was determined (at least pretty much so) that the birefringent material was paint flakes form the broken art brush.

 

[BlueCrab]

Even if the birefringent material found in JonBenet's vagina was Santa's glitter, it doesn't necessarily implicate McReynolds, since he'd been in the R house prior to JonBenet's murder sprinkling it. Anyway, I thought it was determined (at least pretty much so) that the birefringent material was paint flakes form the broken art brush.

Ivy,

I think the painted paint brush handle being the source of the birefringent foreign material was a logical guess -- but nevertheless just a guess. Other sources said it contained glucose (wood, baby powder, etc.) We don't know who to believe. McReynold's glitter in his beard is just as believable as any.

JMO

 

[sissi]

Jonbenet was a trusting little girl, full of fantasy as in the children of the 40's and 50's, could this influence be based on old Shirley Temple movies? I ask this because ,while many of us are quick to spare our children from the sex and violence of today's movies we don't consider that perhaps the naive trust that children enjoyed during that period ,in those films, can and should not be emulated in our era. Shirley, had a proffessor of a grandad, a thief if I recall, and went everywhere with him (yep I could be bad on the recall),dancing for pennies in "Dimples". A trusting little girl who had seen her "idle" enjoy slipping out into the night on adventures could be easy prey. As the Darlings slipped away with "Peter Pan",one can imagine an imaginative child not questioning an adventure with someone to a "magical" place. In the case of Santa a trip to the North Pole could have been in store?

 

[tipper]

I also wonder what the "artifact" was that was found on the tip of JonBenet's tongue.

JMO

I think the artifact was not 'an artifact' per se, but was the drying of the tip of her tongue as part of natural post-mortem changes.

 

[BlueCrab]

I think the artifact was not 'an artifact' per se, but was the drying of the tip of her tongue as part of natural post-mortem changes.

Tipper,

An artifact is a man-made object. Board certified forensic pathologist Dr. John Meyer, with decades of experience under his belt, would know the difference between a man-made object and a human tongue.

The artifact on the tip of JonBenet's tongue could be a significant clue. It would at least be interesting to know what the artifact was.

JMO

 

[tipper]

Tipper,

An artifact is a man-made object. Board certified forensic pathologist Dr. John Meyer, with decades of experience under his belt, would know the difference between a man-made object and a human tongue.

The artifact on the tip of JonBenet's tongue could be a significant clue. It would at least be interesting to know what the artifact was.

JMO

Bluecrab,
An artifact can (and usually does) refer to a manmade object. However it also has another, scientifically oriented meaning. #3 in the dictionary quote. I've also included some samples of "artifact" being used as I think it was in JonBenet's autopsy.

ar·ti·fact also ar·te·fact

1. An object produced or shaped by human craft, especially a tool, weapon, or ornament of archaeological or historical interest.
2. Something viewed as a product of human conception or agency rather than an inherent element: "The very act of looking at a naked model was an artifact of male supremacy" (Philip Weiss).
3. A structure or feature not normally present but visible as a result of an external agent or action, such as one seen in a microscopic specimen after fixation, or in an image produced by radiology or electrocardiography.
4. An inaccurate observation, effect, or result, especially one resulting from the technology used in scientific investigation or from experimental error: The apparent pattern in the data was an artifact of the collection method

http://www.mysterysteps.com/randomnotes/autopsy.htm

BACK: Present on the right upper back is a horizontal area of soft tissue indentation with postmortem drying artifact. There is a small pigmented nevus on the right lower quadrant of the back.

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/courses/aq448/diseases/biovsnec.htm

Large red dilated secondary filaments represent telangiectasis and occur as a post mortem artifact due to the changes in osmotic pressures (water versus air).

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/courses/aq448/diseases/biovsnec.htm

The lips demonstrates some early drying artifact as does the tip of the tongue.

 

[twizzler333]

In medical language the word artifact is commonly used. In this instance the M.E. is probably referring to dried crusted saliva or possibly dried mucosal fluid.

 

[BlueCrab]

Tipper,

The word "artifact" in my dictionary (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary) doesn't have the definitions you described.

artifact 1. a: a simple object (such as a tool or ornament) showing human workmanship or modification b: a product of civilization (such as the jet age) c: a product of artistic endeavor 2. a product (as a structure on a prepared microscope slide) of artificial character due to extraneous (as human) agency.

It seems obvious to me that the word "artifact" describes something that involves artificial construction, as opposed to natural construction. Therefore, the artifact on the tip of JonBenet's tongue couldn't have been naturally-drying saliva or skin, etc. That's not an artifact. It had to be of artificial construction to be an artifact.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

Amadou Diallo was unarmed when he was killed by police in a fusillade of 41 bullets outside his Bronx apartment house on Feb. 4, 1999. The following sentence is from his autopsy report:

There is slight tache noire artifact on the left bulbar conjunctiva.

(A tache noir is an ulcer covered with a black crust.)

imo

 

[twizzler333]

Not sure where you all are going with this "artifact" spin here but this is the medical meaning:

Artifact of skin- 1) A skin lesion produced or perpetuated by self-inflicted action, as in dermatitis artefacta (self-induced skin lesions resulting from habitual rubbing, scratching, or hair pulling, malingering, or mental disturbance). Also referred to as dermatitis autophytica or factitial dermatitis. 2) Anything, especially in a histologic specimen or a graphic record, that is caused by the technique used or is not a natural occurrence, but is merely incidental.

This comes from the Stedman's Medical Dictionary we use at the hospital.

Hope this helps. I don't think the artifact is a significant finding that would change anything or help determine guilt or innocence of a particular person suspected in this case. BUT I could be wrong and if I am wrong, I am sure someone will kindly point it out to me.

 

[tipper]

Tipper,

The word "artifact" in my dictionary (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary) doesn't have the definitions you described.

artifact 1. a: a simple object (such as a tool or ornament) showing human workmanship or modification b: a product of civilization (such as the jet age) c: a product of artistic endeavor 2. a product (as a structure on a prepared microscope slide) of artificial character due to extraneous (as human) agency.

It seems obvious to me that the word "artifact" describes something that involves artificial construction, as opposed to natural construction. Therefore, the artifact on the tip of JonBenet's tongue couldn't have been naturally-drying saliva or skin, etc. That's not an artifact. It had to be of artificial construction to be an artifact.

JMO

Definition #2 is what we mean.
"A product of artificial character" meaning the tip of her tongue (if she were alive) would not naturally or normally be dry.

"due to extraneous ... agency." In this case the extraneous agency was the warm, dry air in the basement coupled with her being dead.

Had she been alive she would have continuously kept her tongue moist. As it was - it had begun to dry out - starting at the tip. The skin on the end of her tongue reflected that change and were different from those cells that had not yet dried out.

Added: Would it help clarify what I'm trying to say if I said a blister is an artifact of hiking in shoes that don't fit? The blister is the natural reaction to an outside agency. In this case the shoe rubbing for some period of time.

 

[BlueCrab]

Definition #2 is what we mean.
"A product of artificial character" meaning the tip of her tongue (if she were alive) would not naturally or normally be dry.

"due to extraneous ... agency." In this case the extraneous agency was the warm, dry air in the basement coupled with her being dead.

Had she been alive she would have continuously kept her tongue moist. As it was - it had begun to dry out - starting at the tip. The skin on the end of her tongue reflected that change and were different from those cells that had not yet dried out.

Added: Would it help clarify what I'm trying to say if I said a blister is an artifact of hiking in shoes that don't fit? The blister is the natural reaction to an outside agency. In this case the shoe rubbing for some period of time.

Tipper,

Okay. You win. The artifact COULD be the dried out tip of the tongue.

JMO