Why doesn't anyone think it could've been John.

[Badsleuth]

The Ramseys did what they always did when presented with a problem...they covered it up. To me, any loving parent would have called 911 when a child was injured, but not them. You brutalize the tiny child even more in some insane attempt to create a false scenario.

What are the previou example of the Ramseys always 'covering up'?

 

[Tobiano8th]

i don't think the R's covered up, but they lawyered and pr'd up like mad and right away..... the behaviour seems completely unnatural to many people, but then others say "the BPD were going to only focus on R's. or only did that".......... you'd think the R's would be so overwhelming sad, mad and befuddled that hiring a lawyer would be the last thing on their minds. but like i said, others see on here see it differently.

 

[Tobiano8th]

i think this is the thread i saw reference to JBR's private areas.

could the damage done there be done by aggressively cleaning that area after accidents? someone on here suggested that, i believe.

it has never sat right with me that the physical evidence showed long-term sexual abuse. i am curious what other peoples feeling for that evidence is?

and of course, if it did happen, i'd assume it was a R or a friend of BR.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

i think this is the thread i saw reference to JBR's private areas.

could the damage done there be done by aggressively cleaning that area after accidents? someone on here suggested that, i believe.

it has never sat right with me that the physical evidence showed long-term sexual abuse. i am curious what other peoples feeling for that evidence is?

and of course, if it did happen, i'd assume it was a R or a friend of BR.

I think you might find the answers you seek as they regard molestation of JBR at the link below and I urge you to read the whole page....

National Center on Sexual Behavior of Youth Fact Sheet

It's just an opinion.

 

[Tobiano8th]

she, thank you very much. good info

a child i vaguely knew was sexually abused and there was such a telltale sign at the time, that i've never heard of it in JBR case..... the telltale sign was so obvious in hindsight, but i'm no expert. i'd never seen a case before (or since). and when i say hindsight, i didn't know the child was being abused at that time. only much later.

not saying this sign is there in every case nor that JBR didn't display it (and the sign might relate to certain types of sexual abuse)... just that i haven't heard of it.

i saw a big article on the different evidence. experts saying it could have been fairly benign.. but it's never clear in the article who's paid by R's and who is not

 

[Tobiano8th]

ok, the behaviour i mentioned (touching themselves) is mentioned there and is considered age-ok for this girl i knew........ but it was constant and very noticeable. and something i'd never seen before

 

[Tobiano8th]

Article from BoulderNews Ramsey Archive

While a coroner's report found JonBenet had been sexually assaulted before she was killed, "experts" have differed widely as to whether the evidence supports previous or chronic abuse. The coroner's report found "chronic inflammation and epithelial erosion" in the girl's vagina, leading Dr. Cyril Wecht, coroner of Allegheny County, Pa., to conclude that there was abuse at least two days before her death.

But others say anyone who hasn't examined the actual tissue couldn't reach a reliable conclusion.

"Poor hygiene can cause chronic inflammation," Dr. Joan Slook, a pediatrician with the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told the Daily Camera. "Some little girls can have asymptomatic bladder infections that can cause irritation in the vagina."

PARAGRAPH EXCLUDED JUST TO SHORTEN THE COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL. IRRELEVENT CONTENT

JonBenet's vagina was not penetrated, sources say, but there were "bruises" or marks in her genital area.

my comment: her vagina not being penetrated leads me to think there are a number of non-sex abuse explanations for bruises/marks.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Article from BoulderNews Ramsey Archive

While a coroner's report found JonBenet had been sexually assaulted before she was killed, "experts" have differed widely as to whether the evidence supports previous or chronic abuse. The coroner's report found "chronic inflammation and epithelial erosion" in the girl's vagina, leading Dr. Cyril Wecht, coroner of Allegheny County, Pa., to conclude that there was abuse at least two days before her death.

But others say anyone who hasn't examined the actual tissue couldn't reach a reliable conclusion.

"Poor hygiene can cause chronic inflammation," Dr. Joan Slook, a pediatrician with the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told the Daily Camera. "Some little girls can have asymptomatic bladder infections that can cause irritation in the vagina."

PARAGRAPH EXCLUDED JUST TO SHORTEN THE COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL. IRRELEVENT CONTENT

JonBenet's vagina was not penetrated, sources say, but there were "bruises" or marks in her genital area.

my comment: her vagina not being penetrated leads me to think there are a number of non-sex abuse explanations for bruises/marks.

JB was penetrated by the paintbrush.

 

[tiddermod]

her vagina not being penetrated leads me to think there are a number of non-sex abuse explanations for bruises/marks.

1) Why are you taking the word of anonymous "sources"?

2) The article you are citing is from March 1997. At that point, all that was available was the redacted autopsy report. The full autopsy report would not be released until July 1997. Police would later consult experts to review the evidence of prior abuse, but this didn't happen until August/September of 1997. Those experts did determine there was evidence of both prior and acute vaginal intrusion.

 

[Charlot123]

John was a very rich man. if he did indeed do it. why would patsy cover it up for him? considering how rich he was. if he went to jail. she would've gotten all his money or at least gotten millions of dollars from the divorce.

it doesn't make sense that a woman who's child is killed by a wealthy husband just doesn't leave him and take him for all his money. why cover it up? she gains alot more by outing him.

the cover up only makes sense if the person who did it was their son.

Stage IV cancer. Patsy was hysterical, but smart.

If the father is in jail, and the mother passes away, then the child with Burke’s traits would fare too poorly. Consider that the criminal case would have swiped away all their money. So I think Patsy incriminated herself more than anyone else, knowing that her son needed at least one parent to be with him. I think she logically chose the path that would protect Burke - and his father.

 

[UKGuy]

Article from BoulderNews Ramsey Archive

While a coroner's report found JonBenet had been sexually assaulted before she was killed, "experts" have differed widely as to whether the evidence supports previous or chronic abuse. The coroner's report found "chronic inflammation and epithelial erosion" in the girl's vagina, leading Dr. Cyril Wecht, coroner of Allegheny County, Pa., to conclude that there was abuse at least two days before her death.

But others say anyone who hasn't examined the actual tissue couldn't reach a reliable conclusion.

"Poor hygiene can cause chronic inflammation," Dr. Joan Slook, a pediatrician with the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told the Daily Camera. "Some little girls can have asymptomatic bladder infections that can cause irritation in the vagina."

PARAGRAPH EXCLUDED JUST TO SHORTEN THE COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL. IRRELEVENT CONTENT

JonBenet's vagina was not penetrated, sources say, but there were "bruises" or marks in her genital area.

my comment: her vagina not being penetrated leads me to think there are a number of non-sex abuse explanations for bruises/marks.

Tobiano8th,
12-29-1996 Search Warrant for 755 15th Street, Excerpt

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 27, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury constant with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact. For further details on the autopsy see the attached document entitled Addendum To Search Warrant.

Well the coroner one of only two medical examiners to have sight of JonBenet deceased, i.e. not a photograph, suggests somebody penetrated JonBenet using their finger(s)?

A second examination later in evening agreed with Coroner Meyer's initial findings.

.

 

[Stevem3]

I am not anywhere near as knowledgeable about the case as a lot of you so have mercy on me but on the night of the homicide, Patsy would have been weak from having undergone chemo. Also, in the CBS series demo, the child who plays Burke is repeatedly striking a skull replica that remains upright and immobile. The actor wails on the faux skull continuously until he gets the desired result and again, the skull replica doesn't topple.

Wouldn't the only adult male who was present in the home be the one most likely to have had the physical strength to have delivered the head blow?

Was JR sexually abusing JB ? We will likely never find out. For what it is worth he has married 3 times and cheated on his first wife. That would suggest to me he is sexually attracted to women. Would these facts weigh at all on the chances he is a pedophile ? They did not find child *advertiser censored* in his possession.

To be a pedophile first you must have some really sick fantasies. Now to act on them means you either are a narcissist that has no regard for standard morality or you do have a standard moral code but lack the discipline to not act on your fantasy. Also generally pedophiles that have acted will act again, especially if they are not caught the first time.

 

[icedtea4me]

What are the previou example of the Ramseys always 'covering up'?

In their book DoI they (Patsy) relate a story about Jacques I. Jacques I was the first Bichon Frise they got, but he got ill and died so they replaced him with Jacques II. They lied to JonBenet about the two dogs being one and the same. This means that when it came to death, John and Patsy would lie about it.

 

[UKGuy]

In their book DoI they (Patsy) relate a story about Jacques I. Jacques I was the first Bichon Frise they got, but he got ill and died so they replaced him with Jacques II. They lied to JonBenet about the two dogs being one and the same. This means that when it came to death, John and Patsy would lie about it.

icedtea4me,
Totally bizarre this. JonBenet will have known it was another dog, different personality, different habits, etc.

If true not just lie about death but lie to their children simply preserve appearances, typical of the noveau riche, then again Patsy was fond of the arts and painting all a means to promoting her self image.

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

icedtea4me,
Totally bizarre this. JonBenet will have known it was another dog, different personality, different habits, etc.

If true not just lie about death but lie to their children simply preserve appearances, typical of the noveau riche, then again Patsy was fond of the arts and painting all a means to promoting her self image.

.

Here is the housekeepers recollection:
PETER BOYLES: Jacque the dog, again, JonBenet's dog, but the dog was given to the people across the street. A lot of people have talked about where was the dog that night. The dog had been given to the neighbors because the neighbors quote, liked the dog and so the dog lived there. What can you tell us about the dog?

LINDA WILCOX: Well, first of all, Patsy didn't want a dog. And, she didn't want JonBenet to have a dog. This particular dog didn't get the potty training thing down very well, he tended to leave puddles. He was pretty much relegated to the wood floor at the bottom of the spiral staircase and out the side door off the patio. However, they had, John told Patsy to get JonBenet a dog. It was John's decision to get a dog and Patsy chose a Bichon. She got it from a pet store, and I came there one day, his name was Jacques, a little guy, cute little furball. Well, one day the dog went to the vet and came back. But the dog that went to the vet was smaller than the dog that left. I had said something to Patsy, the next week I walked in and I asked Patsy what happened to Jacques. She's like, "What?" And I said, this isn't Jacques. And she's like, SHHHH, don't tell anyone, no one else knows. Turns out the first dog had something wrong like some kind of liver disease or something and it was dying. It was a bad dog, so she called the pet store and made a switch before anyone knew.

One more thing...I think the first summer, the summer of '94, they took the dog with them to Michigan. See Patsy took care of the dog, John took no responsibility for it whatsoever. He tolerated it at best. And, if it got anything of his, heaven forbid. I don't know this, but I think they got rid of the dog because when they were in Michigan, they were busy with pageants. They were doing other things and there was no one to look after the dog. I think they gave it to the neighbors when they left for the summer because they didn't want to hassle with the dog. Life was good for them until it was inconvenient.

So sad!

 

[UKGuy]

Here is the housekeepers recollection:
PETER BOYLES: Jacque the dog, again, JonBenet's dog, but the dog was given to the people across the street. A lot of people have talked about where was the dog that night. The dog had been given to the neighbors because the neighbors quote, liked the dog and so the dog lived there. What can you tell us about the dog?

LINDA WILCOX: Well, first of all, Patsy didn't want a dog. And, she didn't want JonBenet to have a dog. This particular dog didn't get the potty training thing down very well, he tended to leave puddles. He was pretty much relegated to the wood floor at the bottom of the spiral staircase and out the side door off the patio. However, they had, John told Patsy to get JonBenet a dog. It was John's decision to get a dog and Patsy chose a Bichon. She got it from a pet store, and I came there one day, his name was Jacques, a little guy, cute little furball. Well, one day the dog went to the vet and came back. But the dog that went to the vet was smaller than the dog that left. I had said something to Patsy, the next week I walked in and I asked Patsy what happened to Jacques. She's like, "What?" And I said, this isn't Jacques. And she's like, SHHHH, don't tell anyone, no one else knows. Turns out the first dog had something wrong like some kind of liver disease or something and it was dying. It was a bad dog, so she called the pet store and made a switch before anyone knew.

One more thing...I think the first summer, the summer of '94, they took the dog with them to Michigan. See Patsy took care of the dog, John took no responsibility for it whatsoever. He tolerated it at best. And, if it got anything of his, heaven forbid. I don't know this, but I think they got rid of the dog because when they were in Michigan, they were busy with pageants. They were doing other things and there was no one to look after the dog. I think they gave it to the neighbors when they left for the summer because they didn't want to hassle with the dog. Life was good for them until it was inconvenient.

Rain on my Parade,
So sad!

because they didn't want to hassle with the dog. Life was good for them until it was inconvenient.

Same with both Burke and JonBenet. JonBenet being given Burke's cast offs, Burke being dumped by Patsy for JonBenet to do pageants, etc.

For some reason Patsy lacked something wrt to the children. I might be wrong here, but John left the children mainly as Patsy's responsibility, he just concentrated on his work?

John expected Patsy to get it right where the children were concerned, this never worked out, despite Patsy employing housekeepers, etc.

How does Patsy arrive at a situation where both her children are seeing therapists, for what who knows, her personal relationship with her husband has broken down, and her daughter is found dead, allegedly sexually assaulted, in the wine-cellar?

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Same with both Burke and JonBenet. JonBenet being given Burke's cast offs, Burke being dumped by Patsy for JonBenet to do pageants, etc.

Millionaires making their precious little girl wear her brothers hand me downs; yet having no qualms about spending $100. on a dress for pageants or entrance fees?

For some reason Patsy lacked something wrt to the children. I might be wrong here, but John left the children mainly as Patsy's responsibility, he just concentrated on his work?

This is exactly what I gather about the running of the household. If John did help out, he did so reluctantly.

John expected Patsy to get it right where the children were concerned, this never worked out, despite Patsy employing housekeeper, etc.

I totally agree with you. The employment of the housekeepers speak volumes to me. They (if anyone) had the inside skinny to that household.

How does Patsy arrive at a situation where both her children are seeing therapists, for what who knows, her personal relationship with her husband has broken down, and her daughter is found dead, allegedly sexually assaulted, in the wine-cellar?

Patsy’s mode of operation was run, run very far away! Do not face the truth. She was such a drama queen. As much as I dislike speaking ill of the deceased.
Obviously since both children were seeing therapists before they were 10 years old. I would attribute this to something traumatic. If by chance BR has ODD then this could have been part of it. He still has developmental issues as an adult. He is not part of the “norm” of society”.

 

[Swirlz]

There's actually no source for Burke having seen a therapist prior to the homicide. It's an internet rumor. I believed it for years because I'd seen it commented on so many times.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

There's actually no source for Burke having seen a therapist prior to the homicide. It's an internet rumor. I believed it for years because I'd seen it commented on so many times.

Swirlz,
How very interesting. Thank you!

 

[UKGuy]

There's actually no source for Burke having seen a therapist prior to the homicide. It's an internet rumor. I believed it for years because I'd seen it commented on so many times.

Swirlz,
You might be right, its a rumor, but I read an article where Patsy was being interviewed and she just dropped it out of the blue that JonBenet was in therapy prior to her death.

I might be conflating this with Burke, but given what we know now, if JonBenet was in therapy, why not Burke?

Some say it was to deal with the consequences of Patsy's cancer, could be?

In Steve Thomas' book there is also reference to BPD detectives phoning therapists and being told "talk to the Parents Attorneys".

.