Why would the DT not use a mental defense?

[Horace Finklestein]

I haven't read all these many posts on any of these threads, yet I know from the tone of other threads I've been on, that the majority of people wish to see Casey dead, in retaliation of her daughter's death, i.e. the Death Penalty.

I find this immensely sad as the human condition in the U.S. seems to be as in the Middle East, or "an eye for an eye" Retribution.

There is no doubt and never has been for me, that Casey is mentally ill.

We need only look at her fantasy life, all contrived as well as the so-called evidence of "heart stickers" which personally, I think she did put on the duct tape.

Why would someone do this if they were not mentally ill?

Certainly, IF it were someone in your family, your child, your granddaughter in such a terrible state as this, and being lambasted on that awful NG show each night for 3 years, (how can they ever find someone on a jury who didn't see this show?)
Certainly, you would be able then to put yourself, in their shoes.

I just don't know why they did not opt for the mental illness defense from the "get-go" and took the attitude with the protective cocoon around her as this family did for months (how many months was it I forgot?)

All those months of appearing on TV insisting that Zanny was "real".......and all those months of flat out denial did nothing to help their daughter's growing, real and oppressive mental illnesses which must be legion by now.

She was tested and was not found to have a mental illness. Mental illness does not cause people to be violent or to murder their family members. People with mental illness are more likely to be victims than to be victimized and are very rarely violent. Randomly choosing mental illness as a reason for her to have killed Caylee, is silly and imo contributes to inaccuracy and misinformation. It would be like trying to correlate hair color or something with violence. Research doesn't support it.

 

[carole]

She was tested and was not found to have a mental illness. Mental illness does not cause people to be violent or to murder their family members. People with mental illness are more likely to be victims than to be victimized and are very rarely violent. Randomly choosing mental illness as a reason for her to have killed Caylee, is silly and imo contributes to inaccuracy and misinformation. It would be like trying to correlate hair color or something with violence. Research doesn't support it.

BBM

She would have to admit she murdered Caylee in order to go with mental illness anyway. She will never admit to this murder. She really thinks she has a chance at going free.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

You make a good points about a narcissist and personality disorders being "chronic" . However I'm not so sure that her issues are not mental defects.

After all, who puts heart stickers on their dead child's mouth when it's taped with duct tape?

Who takes the police right to the door of Universal Studios where you don't work, and you take them to your office door before announcing finally, "oh by the way"

I wonder how many people with common personality disorders, like Bi Polar, manic depression or even narcissist would make up a complete Fantasy life with 20 or more people in this life who never existed in reality or in the way her made up mind said they did?

That just all seems rather bizarre behaviors to me.
:waitasec:

Bipolar is not a personality disorder it is a severe mental illness and does not cause people to kill. Casey has not been diagnosed with anything to my knowledge. Just because she does bizarre unthinkable things does not mean she has mental illness...

 

[OneLostGrl]

She was tested and was not found to have a mental illness. Mental illness does not cause people to be violent or to murder their family members. People with mental illness are more likely to be victims than to be victimized and are very rarely violent. Randomly choosing mental illness as a reason for her to have killed Caylee, is silly and imo contributes to inaccuracy and misinformation. It would be like trying to correlate hair color or something with violence. Research doesn't support it.

:clap: Really! I am so sick of hearing how the mentally ill are so dangerous and out of control and that one would HAVE TO have a mental illness in order to lie and steal and sneak and make up friends and murder their children. I am mentally ill, I have periods of psychosis and I have never hurt another human being, least of all my child. The prison system is FULL of "Normal" evil people, why can't we talk about those people, use them as our examples instead of creating more misinformation and stigma, kwim?!

 

[Leomoon80]

From Psychology Today, a Forensic Psychologist questions whether or not Casey has been tested.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...orensic-psychologist-comments-the-case?page=2

snipped (page 2) Article on Casey A. and Mental Illness diagnosis

"From the perspective of forensic psychology and its possible role in such cases, will her attorneys request a psychological evaluation to specifically determine what her state of mind was at the time of the alleged crime? And what her current mental status and psychiatric diagnosis might be? (She has supposedly already undergone a psychiatric evaluation, but I am not sure what particular issues were addressed there.) Does she manifest any symptoms of mental disorder at all? Is there any psychiatric history? Is she competent to stand trial? Is she perhaps so out of touch with reality and dissociated from her own feelings that she has repressed any recollection of what truly happened to Caylee? Is she delusional? Was she in the throes of a manic or hypomanic episode? Or substance intoxication? Does she meet formal diagnostic criteria for a specific personality disorder? Will her lawyers eventually consider, if necessary, some psychiatric defense? "

 

[OneLostGrl]

From Psychology Today, a Forensic Psychologist questions whether or not Casey has been tested.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...orensic-psychologist-comments-the-case?page=2

snipped (page 2) Article on Casey A. and Mental Illness diagnosis

"From the perspective of forensic psychology and its possible role in such cases, will her attorneys request a psychological evaluation to specifically determine what her state of mind was at the time of the alleged crime? And what her current mental status and psychiatric diagnosis might be? (She has supposedly already undergone a psychiatric evaluation, but I am not sure what particular issues were addressed there.) Does she manifest any symptoms of mental disorder at all? Is there any psychiatric history? Is she competent to stand trial? Is she perhaps so out of touch with reality and dissociated from her own feelings that she has repressed any recollection of what truly happened to Caylee? Is she delusional? Was she in the throes of a manic or hypomanic episode? Or substance intoxication? Does she meet formal diagnostic criteria for a specific personality disorder? Will her lawyers eventually consider, if necessary, some psychiatric defense? "

Before Casey was given bond the first time she was in jail the judge ordered a psych eval with two different doctors. So the answer is- yes, she was evaluated, yes, she has been seen by mental health professionals.

 

[lyrasong]

From Psychology Today, a Forensic Psychologist questions whether or not Casey has been tested.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...orensic-psychologist-comments-the-case?page=2

snipped (page 2) Article on Casey A. and Mental Illness diagnosis

"From the perspective of forensic psychology and its possible role in such cases, will her attorneys request a psychological evaluation to specifically determine what her state of mind was at the time of the alleged crime? And what her current mental status and psychiatric diagnosis might be? (She has supposedly already undergone a psychiatric evaluation, but I am not sure what particular issues were addressed there.) Does she manifest any symptoms of mental disorder at all? Is there any psychiatric history? Is she competent to stand trial? Is she perhaps so out of touch with reality and dissociated from her own feelings that she has repressed any recollection of what truly happened to Caylee? Is she delusional? Was she in the throes of a manic or hypomanic episode? Or substance intoxication? Does she meet formal diagnostic criteria for a specific personality disorder? Will her lawyers eventually consider, if necessary, some psychiatric defense? "

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the door has been closed on a psychiatric defense by the defense themselves. They pulled out of the state's deposition of defense's psychiatric witnesses, I believe it was, called HHJP, who then put an end to the deposition by mutual decision of all parties involved, and then the defense never revisited the issue of bringing in other psychiatrists to examine ICA again, IIRC.

If the defense were to bring up a psychiatric defense, I believe they would have to go through many hoops, such as create a CV, reports, allow the state to depose the witness, allow the state to have their own expert examine ICA, then the defense in turn would want their own reports from the state, etc...they had deadlines for a reason and that has long past.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

My two layperson's cents FWI may or may not be worth....

I've always differentiated personality disorders as deep, irreversible character flaws or deviations. You can't treat them, you can't fix them. (I have two sibs (out of three) who have given me ample experience with this. You can be in the deepest, most gut wrenching emotional pain and grief, and they will make it about themselves to the bitter end. As we saw w/ KC.)

Mental illness is just that; an illness, not a character flaw or deviation. Illnesses can be treated, some people have better outcomes than others, but you are not trying to mend a twisted character.

KC does not have a mental illness. If that defense had ever had a shot, it would have been determined at the beginning, when she had her first psych evaluation. IMO

 

[concentric]

IMO, a good article about Sociopathy:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-symptoms-of-sociopathy.htm

People suffering from sociopathy, or antisocial personality disorder, may display a wide range of behaviors associated with the disorder, which generally causes them to have an overall disregard for the needs and rights of others. One of the primary symptoms of sociopathy is chronic lying, which is often used to manipulate others. Sociopaths do not feel guilt or remorse for hurting other people, though they are often superficially charming and likable. They typically see themselves as superior to other people, and have a general disregard for societal norms and rules. They also tend to be impulsive, making irresponsible decisions and engaging in behaviors that hurt other people.

 

[1Chump]

bingo. i was wondering, but THAT is the anser

but they could have if she had said it was an accident and my "mental state" prevented me from admitting it for so long (right?)

and, imo, that may have really worked for the jury----but she couldnt do it.

WILL NOT ADMIT to anything that might even remotely make her look bad

imo

IMO - That is what the defense is right now. It was an accidental death. The reason Casey could not admit it was the coping mechanisms she learned as a result of her abuse.

IMO - As far as a mental health defense, the defendant cannot "admit" what is not charge. Casey could not plead "guilty to accidental death." Casey would have to plead guilty to what is charged. In this case "guilty to murder by reason of mental defect."

IMO - However, with a mental health defense the burder of proof shifts from the State to the Defendant. The State no longer has the burden of proving guilt because the Defendant admits guilt. But the defendant is also claiming a mental defect. Now the Defendant has the burden of proving that mental defect.

IMO - The defense in this case is unique in that they did not admit "guilt" to force the State to have the burden of proving the charges while still claiming a type of mental "condition" to explain Casey's behavior.

 

[Sleuth5]

IMO the DT never seriously considered the option once the attorneys involved apprised themselves of the facts and the true nature of their client. Allowing SA's experts to examine her and engaging in competing theories in the courtroom would only have served to prove to the jury just how entirely capable their client was of murdering her own child (as others have noted, of course).

 

[crucibelle]

My two layperson's cents FWI may or may not be worth....

I've always differentiated personality disorders as deep, irreversible character flaws or deviations. You can't treat them, you can't fix them. (I have two sibs (out of three) who have given me ample experience with this. You can be in the deepest, most gut wrenching emotional pain and grief, and they will make it about themselves to the bitter end. As we saw w/ KC.)

Mental illness is just that; an illness, not a character flaw or deviation. Illnesses can be treated, some people have better outcomes than others, but you are not trying to mend a twisted character.

KC does not have a mental illness. If that defense had ever had a shot, it would have been determined at the beginning, when she had her first psych evaluation. IMO

Respectfully, you have made a broad generalization about personality disorders, which is incorrect. Not all personality disorders are the same. Ever heard/read about Avoidant Personality Disorder? I've been dx'd with that one. I'm not a 'deviant', nor do I hurt people on purpose and care only about myself like KC does. You are correct in saying that PD's can't be cured, but some of them CAN be treated. I'm being treated with a combo of medication & therapy. I'm much better than I was several years ago. My being able to even post on this board & risk criticism and/or rejection from others is a testament to my progress.

IMO, KC does have some sort of mental problem.. not sure what, but she's probably a psychopath. Even though something is most likely wrong with her brain, and she was probably born with it and didn't ask for it, a line HAS to be drawn somewhere. As a society, we cannot let these people go around killing and terrorizing others, no matter if the cause is mental illness, or not. Bottom line, KC knows right from wrong. She had a choice and most of us (IMO) know what she chose to do. The punishment should fit the crime. JMO.

 

[Leomoon80]

Respectfully, you have made a broad generalization about personality disorders, which is incorrect. Not all personality disorders are the same. Ever heard/read about Avoidant Personality Disorder? I've been dx'd with that one. I'm not a 'deviant', nor do I hurt people on purpose and care only about myself like KC does. You are correct in saying that PD's can't be cured, but some of them CAN be treated. I'm being treated with a combo of medication & therapy. I'm much better than I was several years ago. My being able to even post on this board & risk criticism and/or rejection from others is a testament to my progress.

IMO, KC does have some sort of mental problem.. not sure what, but she's probably a psychopath. Even though something is most likely wrong with her brain, and she was probably born with it and didn't ask for it, a line HAS to be drawn somewhere. As a society, we cannot let these people go around killing and terrorizing others, no matter if the cause is mental illness, or not. Bottom line, KC knows right from wrong. She had a choice and most of us (IMO) know what she chose to do. The punishment should fit the crime. JMO.

Thank you for your brave post in light of what you said, (potential rejection) or worse perhaps, judgement from others, but I do think it's very important for all of us human beings, to understand, that Medicine, is always evolving, and probably as well in the Psychiatric realms too.

Perhaps this is why some psychiatrists felt that observations and study, and keeping alive Ted Bundy rather then killing him, could yield some new information about the brain and it's chemistry and just how it works.

The Behavioral Unit at the FBI is a rather newish department, not that old and comes from learning in interviews and studying those with all manner of psychological problems.

Society may be better aided, by learning how brains operate and when they go horribly wrong, then killling the offenders.

What then does one gain? :waitasec:

It cannot bring back a lost loved one.

 

[Emeralgem]

IMO.. They cannot use a mental defense due to the fact she knows right from wrong.
She isn't psychotic just plaqued with a narcissistic sociopathic, pathological lying disorder..JMHO

 

[kaki]

The mental defect route may be what they are going for in a "backwards kinda way". I've heard AF say "diminished capacity" more than once. But we have to remember that the DT does not want the state to bring in their own psychological experts (they tried to get around it by having their own psychologists try to testify as gloried hearsay witnesses because I don't think they believe there is a diagnosis that will hold up. Sociopaths make "fantasylands" with their lies too and they may not completely believe them but it doesn't matter - they feel their lies are justified so it is immaterial whether they lie to others - what they think and say becomes truth in some twisted Cartesian way).

The fact that the DT has admitted she is completely aware that Caylee died prior to all of this and yet she sits in jail pretending in front of her parents that the kidnapping story is real - and spews impromptu lies fabricated on the moment to put her one step ahead of anyone's suspicions and in a way that is completely calculated to get her off the hook; the fact she seems to enjoy manipulating people when she doesn't even need to and her lies and body language are often full of arrogance and scorn makes me think that the only real diagnosis anyone would offer up to explain all of her anti-social behaviors is sociopath and I don't think the DT wants to go there.

That video you are referring to where she is telling her parents all the lies about how sure she is Caylee is ok and close and they will see her just as they remember her.. that is the most evil, twisted thing I have ever seen!! It appeared to me that she was just emotionally torturing her parents... kind of like a cat playing with a mouse.. it was unbelievable! I've seen all these recordings before but seeing it in the context that she knew Caylee was already dead.. very disturbing!

 

[catnron]

She would also be examined by the State's mental health experts - something the defense wouldn't necessarily want if she isn't truly mental ill.

MOO

I to believe Casey is very mental ill. At first I thought she was just mean and evil, she is that but there is more that is there, the darkness in her as if a human life and human feelings is nothing. I wish the Anthonys could have some how demanded a mental health expert to evaluate Casey to see just how bad she is . Maybe there is still something Cindy & George can do as far as seeking advice on this. Would it be possible if C& G to stop this and have Casey tested? I want Justice for Caylee just like everone does, but there is just something that is not right with Casey and I believe Baez knows it also.I really believe Casey had plans to kill her parents also, that is where Casey moving into the A's house comes in... Casey could have very well been a serial killer had Cindy not made that 911 call. :banghead:

 

[21merc7]

An active imagination, nor manipulative, makes one insane.

Think of Mary Shelly, or any author from the 1800's. They did not have t.v. to entertain so they just did it, but wrote it down. We now have t.v. and internet to add to the long winded imagination. KC missed her calling on writing, but would never find a job to support herself. That does not make her crazy, it means she has an active t.v. mind, and slovenly lifestyle that would cost the State with either jail time or funds paid to a person that does not deserve it. IE..welfare.

Don't get me wrong, many of us need and deserve welfare, KC just would refuse to work the rest of her life. Caylee did not grant welfare, bet KC applied, but she lived at home and GA and CA paid her way, she could not get it.


KC is not crazy, just a manipulator with only tall tales to keep her busy.

 

[fromageball]

TY! But I'm afraid the jury will aquit her cos I think they already believe she's CRAZY! What, if anything, can be done to prevent this scenario from happening?

I think she will be convicted(unless some serious exonerative evidence is produced to justify all those ridiculous lies!!), but I don't think she will get the death penalty because she clearly has many, MANY issues! I think the jury will have mercy on her based on that and give her life in prison instead.

 

[Kat]

My two layperson's cents FWI may or may not be worth....

I've always differentiated personality disorders as deep, irreversible character flaws or deviations. You can't treat them, you can't fix them. (I have two sibs (out of three) who have given me ample experience with this. You can be in the deepest, most gut wrenching emotional pain and grief, and they will make it about themselves to the bitter end. As we saw w/ KC.)

Mental illness is just that; an illness, not a character flaw or deviation. Illnesses can be treated, some people have better outcomes than others, but you are not trying to mend a twisted character.

KC does not have a mental illness. If that defense had ever had a shot, it would have been determined at the beginning, when she had her first psych evaluation. IMO

I agree that personality disorders are deep, irreversible character flaws and deviations from the normal personality structure. Character flaws in that they can be corrected with the willingness to commit to therapy. I've read studies that even indicate that a sociopath might possibly be helped with therapy if they really wanted to change and learn how to interact appropriately with others.

I say that while respecting those here that have been diagnosed with a personality disorder.

Personality disorders are described in the International Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders (ICD-10) as ‘deeply ingrained and enduring behaviour patterns, manifesting themselves as inflexible responses to a broad range of personal and social situations’; they represent ‘either extreme or significant deviations from the way the average individual in a given culture perceives, thinks, feels, and particularly relates to others’ and are ‘developmental conditions, which appear in childhood or adolescence and continue into adulthood’ (World Health Organization, 1992a). They are distinguished from mental illness by their enduring, potentially lifelong nature and by the assumption that they represent extremes of normal variation rather than a morbid process of some kind.

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/180/2/110

That's the best definition that I've seen so far for a personality disorder.

So in my mind, I agree that they are not what we classically think of when we hear that a friend or family member has been diagnosed with a mental illness.

For example: A person with borderline personality disorder can learn how to change their responses and relearn empathy and compassion---IF and only IF they want to do the work.

A person with Bi-polar can not. They have an illness of which they can't control or resolve themselves and must take meds to regulate their disease.

In my mind, a personality disorder is not a disease. It is a pervasive set way of responding to environmental stimuli and other people that causes a great deal of anquish for either the person with the personality disorder or their loved ones or both.

Now back on topic Because of the reports that were made and entered into court the defense can't go with a mental defense. Which I don't understand how they are going to claim PTSD or the sexual abuse repercussions (forgot what they called that but it sounded very simliar to Stockholm syndrome).

Anyway just wanted to add that. I do deeply respect those here that have been diagnosed with personality disorders, I have a family member with one as well. JMHO.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

My apologies to anyone who I may have offended with my post re: personality disorders vs. mental illnesses. I was mainly thinking of the PDs of that most of us are familiar with: sociopathic, etc. The type of PDs that enable someone to do evil, hurtful things to others. I was not trying to imply that anyone is "deviant", but again, thinking of the deviations in a sociopathic, etc PD that deviates from and separates their behavior from 90% of everyone else.