GUILTY WI - Apple River multiple stabbing; one teen dead, 4 other people hurt; 52 year old man arrested, July 2022

[CuriousCarly]

Is this wrong? In chrono order:

1. Group of 17 yr old boys yelling at an unfit middle aged guy, laughing and mocking him and calling him a paedophile and "raper" (not rapper)
1a) thanks. Adding
At some point (seen on video), NM makes physical contact with inner tubes of the teen group, touching(?) legs of some of the boys. No words exchanged, the idea is that NM is looking for a cell phone in a plastic pouch.
2. Another group of 6 young adults approach this group of 8 to "check it out"
3. Adult Female is seen in video very close to NM, everyone seems to agree she was yelling expletives and at some point, she has her left hand on his right arm/shoulder, as seen on video.
4. Allegedly (no video) NM strikes female face (MC) with fist, even tho NM would at that point have a knife in his right hand(?) MC still has her beer and cell phone in hand, despite the alleged strike(?)
5. "You don't hit a woman" guy then hits NM multiple times, he falls into water, NM gets up, same guy hits NM again (seen on video). Laughing and cheering ensue.
6. NM begins to stab those surrounding him.

MC apparently didn't want to be on video or recorded so no one can see her testimony.
MC also deleted pic of her face/result of attack from NM, per testimony from PD. She submitted her phone for forensic download but deleted image was never found.

The first part is from memory, but beginning at #3, I used Dante's testimory to try to reconstruct:

. You'll have to scroll through to find the various playbacks.

It needs work and I'm stopping because it's late, but maybe a few of us can fill in the blanks from the replays in court during the testimonies.

1a) NM makes physical contact with inner tubes and may have touched a leg/legs of some of the boys, but then he dropped his mask and snorkel. His focus immediately was on retrieval of mask and snorkel and he walked between tubes and some of the boys when looking for it, then returned to where he initially grabbed tubes.
1b) They continued to taunt him and were telling him to leave, he had 10 seconds, etc. He did retreat away and they continued towards him.
2) I think the two girls arrived first; the others came shortly thereafter.
3) Both girls were in NM's face and he was touched by both of them (Ryley talks about a light push she made when the video was shown in court during her testimony and it is also shown here). Ryley also had her phone right up in his face.
4) Totally agree with #4
5) "You don't hit a woman" was Dante C. He did the first punch of NM, knocking him into the water. (Frame 2661)
6) AJ came walking over ~ Dante hit/slapped NM again; next AJ was pushing NM on his shoulders when he was face down in the water. (Frames 2744-2747), then Dante hit him again.
7) Dante's brother (Tony C) came over, telling people to stop. Dante said Tony pushed Nick away at that time (per Dante) and it is about this time that Ryley's injury is observed in the video. Tony then pushes NM on the back shoulder and then put hands on his throat.

 

[AnyNameIWish]

@CuriousCarly

thank you! I agree with you on the above.
At 0.5Speed I watched Jawaon's video (KARE11 's upload on YouTube) up to 1:50, and the knife is visible in his right hand at that moment. NM's already pulled it out of his pocket as he's being surrounded and yelled at by the kids and the young adults and has it in his fist by then. If he did strike Maddie I think would have been because she is striking him, as you see her arm raised at him.... so maybe everyone's wrong, they keep saying NM hit her with right hand but maybe it was in fact a defensive move?

 

[housewife]

Just curious if you have any actual stats “that so many older people become physically violent”? Or is it based only on anecdotal data?

Good question. This is based on anecdotal data from people in the service industry (customer service, food service).
I've read many accounts where older clients become very very upset when told something they don't like. It causes safety problems for the workers. These clients are more likely to throw a tantrum and expect to get their way after behaving badly. They are more likely to take their rage out on the worker, as if it were a personal issue.
The service industry is somewhat to blame, for years this behavior was rewarded as "the customer is always right". And companies assumed lowly workers would continue accepting abuse as part of their job. We understand now that workers are actually people. Abuse is no longer accepted as a way to get special treatment, but clients who have been behaving this way for years find it hard to adapt. Tantrums were/are their only "problem-solving" skill.

Some have speculated that the older jurors may side with the defense. But I don't think they'll appreciate his lies to LE or how glassy-eyed drunk he got.moo Any thoughts?

Depends on their personal prejudices towards people who are younger than them. Some generations expected young people to automatically submit to their authority, simply because they were older (even complete strangers, even if they were abusive). If they were raised that way it makes sense they would have the same expectation of young people now.
They felt powerless growing up, and now feel they earned the right to expect obedience from others because they are the most "senior" in the room, regardless of their behavior.

We now acknowledge that women and even young people have the right to their own bodies. It is their right to not want to be touched. It is their right to tell someone "no, leave me alone", even with attitude!

I'm seeing many comments that blame Miu's violence on the teen boys, for "riling him up". As if Miu is not responsible for his actions. That perspective is problematic for justice.
All IMO.

 

[AnyNameIWish]

For a few days I wondered who this guy was who appears in the frames AFTER AJ and Ryley(?)- in 2 piece)are stabbed. The older adult in shades, black shirt, and flag pattern trunks. It's Ariel.

Ariel casually walks into the frame. He SEES it happening. He may have noticed AJ is bleeding out. It's SO fast though... you cannot process anything until you watch it frame by frame.

 

[housewife]

For a few days I wondered who this guy was who appears in the frames AFTER AJ and Ryley(?)- in 2 piece)are stabbed. The older adult in shades, black shirt, and flag pattern trunks. It's Ariel.

Ariel casually walks into the frame. He SEES it happening. He may have noticed AJ is bleeding out. It's SO fast though... you cannot process anything until you watch it frame by frame.

Ariel said he saw the blood in the water. He didn't seem too shocked by it, though.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

The second half of the video was shown frame by frame by the prosecution in opening statements.

 

[AnyNameIWish]

Ariel said he saw the blood in the water. He didn't seem too shocked by it, though.

I didn't realise how close Ariel was in the melee, he was in the midst of it all. Ariel said nothing (not sure if it would have helped, though.)

The attack on Isaac isn't on camera so it's hard to tell when in sequence it happened... was he the last one attacked?

Ariel knew something BAD went down. There were signs NM did it. Ariel sees a pool of blood, and doesnt run the other way! I would head for the hills. He doesn't flee, he doesn't help the people hurt. He sees people bleeding and clearly NM was involved, but floated down the river in silence.

 

[CuriousCarly]

@CuriousCarly

thank you! I agree with you on the above.
At 0.5Speed I watched Jawaon's video (KARE11 's upload on YouTube) up to 1:50, and the knife is visible in his right hand at that moment. NM's already pulled it out of his pocket as he's being surrounded and yelled at by the kids and the young adults and has it in his fist by then. If he did strike Maddie I think would have been because she is striking him, as you see her arm raised at him.... so maybe everyone's wrong, they keep saying NM hit her with right hand but maybe it was in fact a defensive move?

Yes, I absolutely think NM did some sort of a defensive move based on Maddie's actions. I don't know when Isaac was stabbed, but it appears to me that every other person who NM stabbed had laid hands on NM first. Watching the video in it's entirety made me very uncomfortable and I felt anxiety; I can't imagine how NM felt in that moment. I would be thinking of how to defend myself as well. If he had a gun, he might have been able to wave it and protect himself, but a knife doesn't quite carry the same threat when you are surrounded.

 

[CuriousCarly]

@CuriousCarly

thank you! I agree with you on the above.
At 0.5Speed I watched Jawaon's video (KARE11 's upload on YouTube) up to 1:50, and the knife is visible in his right hand at that moment. NM's already pulled it out of his pocket as he's being surrounded and yelled at by the kids and the young adults and has it in his fist by then. If he did strike Maddie I think would have been because she is striking him, as you see her arm raised at him.... so maybe everyone's wrong, they keep saying NM hit her with right hand but maybe it was in fact a defensive move?

I watched the video you linked again and at slow speed and right at the 2:00 mark you can see him stab Isaac. This is after he was pushed down and slapped by Dante; next it is Isaac (not AJ as I named before) that was pushing NM on his shoulders when he was face down in the water. When NM gets up, Isaac goes at him again from the front and the knife goes in. It's unsettling to watch and listen to in slow motion.

 

[Mack the Knife]

I watched the video you linked again and at slow speed and right at the 2:00 mark you can see him stab Isaac. This is after he was pushed down and slapped by Dante; next it is Isaac (not AJ as I named before) that was pushing NM on his shoulders when he was face down in the water. When NM gets up, Isaac goes at him again from the front and the knife goes in. It's unsettling to watch and listen to in slow motion.

What makes you think that is Isaac? Isaac was in purple shorts.

AJ was in yellow shorts, as was the man stabbed in the video, and the prosecution said in the opening statement that it is AJ.

 

[bobbymkii]

So having now also caught up with the "Lawtube" community's takes on this case (albeit that they are definitely biased towards the defense) here's where my ever-changing stance on the case is as we go into week 2 of the trial.

A reasonable person in NM's position at the time he started stabbing would have had a reasonable belief that they were in danger of death or serious injury, thus justifying his use of deadly force.

However, there are actions before this occurred that suggest he contributed to the temperature of the situation he was in and of course, his lies and deceit after the incident could be devastating for his defense, so I still can't call it!

This case really is the most contentious self-defense homicide case I can think of, probably since the Zimmerman trial.

 

[Justice101]

Yes, I absolutely think NM did some sort of a defensive move based on Maddie's actions. I don't know when Isaac was stabbed, but it appears to me that every other person who NM stabbed had laid hands on NM first. Watching the video in it's entirety made me very uncomfortable and I felt anxiety; I can't imagine how NM felt in that moment. I would be thinking of how to defend myself as well. If he had a gun, he might have been able to wave it and protect himself, but a knife doesn't quite carry the same threat when you are surrounded.

Yeh, that's where I am on the whole thing. I see this as not entirely NM's fault but to assign a percentage at fault would be difficult. It would be interesting what the actual law is (and previous precedence) on right to defend oneself.

I go back and forth on who is right and who is wrong every time I see the video. Maybe the law is very explicit on when you can or cannot defend oneself with lethal means.

 

[Megnut]

Defense going hard on these young witness victims is painful.

Hard to watch.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

If NM had responded in kind, with shoves and taunts, nobody would be dead. If the adult walked away and alerted LE to rowdy underage drinkers, nobody would be dead.

NM brought a hot knife to a heated conversation.

He has to own that.

JMO

 

[arielilane]

Hey, y'all, good morning, and yes, NM needs to testify and (moo) he will testify.

The jury has seen multiple videos again and again, but do they need to hear from Nicolae Miu, who is claiming self-defense?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1777143069856440457

 

[arielilane]

@cathyrusson

State is expected to rest tomorrow in #NicolaeMiu trial. Defense called two witnesses last Friday, out of order, because they needed an interpreter and the state already had one there for their witnesses.


8:59 AM · Apr 8, 2024

 

[Megnut]

So far, I'm not moved.

This wasn't violence among teens.

This was teens behaving badly and an adult who had no business interacting with them in the least. Ignore them. Walk away, don't engage, report. Let them pass by.

Be better, Adult.

JMO

 

[bobbymkii]

I think he'll have to testify too. Plus, he's already blown away any 5th amendment privilege he would have otherwise had by lying to the police?

Do we know yet whether or not he had an attorney present when he was interviewed? If he did an interview without an attorney I'll hit the roof!

 

[Megnut]

I'll be shocked if he testifies. Gosh, we aren't talking about a 17 year old who responded badly to being taunted by his peers. This was an adult. Who ought to be able to hold it together. Civilized society requires it -- requires adults to keep it together. Can't hold it together, we have a special place for you. It's just not in civilized society. Road rage. River rage. There's no place for it.

JMO

 

[AnyNameIWish]

Do we know yet whether or not he had an attorney present when he was interviewed? If he did an interview without an attorney I'll hit the roof!

In the officer's car after he was in cuffs...there is body cam video where NM said:

"I hear someone got stabbed and I fit the description."

Reference:

Video of deadly fight that led to Apple River stabbing shown during opening arguments of Nicolae Miu trial

The trial for a 54-year-old Prior Lake man accused of killing a teen and stabbing four others on the Apple River in Wisconsin nearly two years ago began on Monday.

www.cbsnews.com

I also have not heard at what point they read him his rights on any body cam.

@Megnut He will likely testify. The defence said as much in opening statements. Attorney Chirafisi was part of the Rittenhouse defence which cleared him, and in that case they defence emphasized how important it was for Kyle to testify.

Yes this was teens behaving poorly. Then a group of unrelated young adults entered the scene and escalated the scenario, getting into further physical confrontation.