Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California, #2

[Betty P]

Because the plaintiffs' lawyer says it's a tugboat hitch?

Yes. The autopsy report was vague and deferred to the SDSO report for details on the noose knot. SDSO never elaborated on what kind of knot it was. The crime scene and autopsy photos, which the plaintiffs' attorney should have access to, will confirm it.

ETA: Also, as Cynic's illustrations upthread show, the tugboat hitch knot matches most of the marks on RZ's neck.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...13-2013-in-California&p=10915569#post10915569

 

[bourne]

Yes, there does seem to be many different "murder" scenarios. The problem I see in so many of them is that the person's character has to be completely morphed into something else for each scenario to make sense. Dina is really strong, towering over Rebecca to murder- but needs Adam to throw her over the banister? Or Adam is an idiot who takes orders blindly in one theory but is the mastermind behind a complicated staging in another. Everything is a lie until it's not. Everyone but Rebecca knows how to tie a knot <mod snip>

As a critical thinker, the suicide scenario is the only one that makes consistent sense to me. I take what I know from media, create a consistent character, apply the evidence reported. However, it is this one scenario, (out of the many different conflicting scenarios), that discussion of will be blatantly shut down here. As if it's just a ridiculous impossibility. I find that telling (but not in ways you probably think).

So what? Simultaneously, there are numerous paradoxical suicide scenarios being thrown about by anti-Zahaus. What's your point?

If you are a critical thinker as you claim, you would know that we, the public (unless you're an insider) do not have access to much of the physical evidence that the police has. So it's understandable why there are different scenarios, a few of which may be conflicting. So what?

When we are given all the facts, then we will be able to come up with more solid, homogenous theory of murder. But we all believe it's murder except for one or two anti-Zahaus.

 

[bourne]

Actually, I'm inclined to agree with one part of your statement. Since the revelation that a tugboat hitch knot was used for the noose around RZ's neck, I don't think either Dina or her sister tied those knots. IMO, it most likely was Adam. They're just too unique and complex for an average person to tie on the spur of the moment. Everyone had to have been in a bit of a panic that night. Here they were, improvising a murder made to look like suicide in the middle of the night.

I still wonder if RZ's murder was an accident. If Adam, Dina and her sister started out torturing her with beating, binding and choking, then ended up going too far. I don't think they were trying to "get information" or "ask questions" of RZ. There was nothing she could tell them about Max's accident that would quench their rage, that would tell them anything they didn't already know - that he fell off a balcony and broke his neck. Nothing RZ could say would change anything.

Nina and Dina wanted revenge. They began to vent their pent up rage towards RZ and their abuse and violence escalated until she died. At that point they were likely in panic mode, needing to cover their tracks and destroy evidence. Someone came up with a very sadist idea for staging a bizarre suicide. But they were in a panic and a hurry. People without a nautical background likely wouldn't have taken the time to research or brainstorm the idea of using complex nautical knots in an overkill method for bindings and a noose. The person who would have quickly created those elaborate knots as if they were second nature is Adam. He could tie those knots in his sleep.


Adam is the most likely person at the murder scene who could could have tied those knots. I'd pretty much always believed that, but the discovery of the tugboat hitch knot info confirmed it.

This is the only sticking point for me. The tugboat knots. Since Dina & Nina grew up sailing with their dad who was also a military officer in the navy, I would think a tugboat hitch would be easy for them to simulate. I'm willing to bet their dad likely showed them all sorts of knots and likely bought books on knot-tying for boating and other purposes (noose-making for example) and the best and easiest method of tying them. I recall reading how much their dad used to love taking his daughters boating. Also he owned a moving company for furniture so one would think hauling Rebecca with mechanical means and artificial props (such as knowing how to tie ropes a certain way for stabilization purposes, as was done at the bedpost) and using a tugboat hitch would be familiar to both fraternal twin sisters. Moreover, the binding of her hands and feet eerily resemble a hogtie except for the rope being cut from wrist to ankle...which perhaps one of the defendants had done to throw off suspicion that Rebecca was murdered and was first thrown over the balcony railing in a hogtie for easy handling. Obviously this is only a supposition on my part as again, we do not have the precise physical evidence that the police (and perhaps the state case parties currently) have.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Actually, I'm inclined to agree with one part of your statement. Since the revelation that a tugboat hitch knot was used for the noose around RZ's neck, I don't think either Dina or her sister tied those knots. IMO, it most likely was Adam. They're just too unique and complex for an average person to tie on the spur of the moment. Everyone had to have been in a bit of a panic that night. Here they were, improvising a murder made to look like suicide in the middle of the night.

I still wonder if RZ's murder was an accident. If Adam, Dina and her sister started out torturing her with beating, binding and choking, then ended up going too far. I don't think they were trying to "get information" or "ask questions" of RZ. There was nothing she could tell them about Max's accident that would quench their rage, that would tell them anything they didn't already know - that he fell off a balcony and broke his neck. Nothing RZ could say would change anything.

Nina and Dina wanted revenge. They began to vent their pent up rage towards RZ and their abuse and violence escalated until she died. At that point they were likely in panic mode, needing to cover their tracks and destroy evidence. Someone came up with a very sadist idea for staging a bizarre suicide. But they were in a panic and a hurry. People without a nautical background likely wouldn't have taken the time to research or brainstorm the idea of using complex nautical knots in an overkill method for bindings and a noose. The person who would have quickly created those elaborate knots as if they were second nature is Adam. He could tie those knots in his sleep.


Adam is the most likely person at the murder scene who could could have tied those knots. I'd pretty much always believed that, but the discovery of the tugboat hitch knot info confirmed it.

How on earth could three people "in a bit of a panic" and "quenching their rage" with "escalating abuse and violence" and "in a panic mode" have the clear state of mind to go back and cover all their tracks, and leave no evidence or DNA or fingerprints or footprints at all? Couldn't happen, IMO.

But an angry and broken-hearted girlfriend could have easily tied herself up and jumped over that ledge. And that's what all the DNA and fingerprints say what happened.

The knot was not a "tugboat hitch knot", and the SDSO said it was not any "type" of knot at all. That Rebecca just tied until she got it right. And if you go back an look at the comments when the picture of all the knots came out, most of the posters pointed out how "loose" the knots were. And not professional at all.

The Zahaus will have a hard time proving that it was a "tugboat hitch knot", when the SDSO clearly said it was not any particular type of knot.

 

[MissUnderstood]

I'd be interested in knowing how many suicides involve tying hands behind their back? It strikes me as quite odd and time consuming.

ETA this interesting article on hand tying in hanging
http://www.academia.edu/903627/Prec...g_and_Reducing_Pain_in_Suicidal_Hanging_Cases


MOO!!

 

[*Lash*]

^Very interesting study of the precautions taken by persons who commit suicide. Many suicides included tying the hands and using material to protect the neck. Imo, I don't find this unusual at all. Howver, none of the case studies showed a person binding their ankles. Not even a mention of ankle binding in this study.

 

[screecher]

BBM

^Very interesting study of the precautions taken by persons who commit suicide. Many suicides included tying the hands and using material to protect the neck. Imo, I don't find this unusual at all. Howver, none of the case studies showed a person binding their ankles. Not even a mention of ankle binding in this study.

Nor being naked.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

I disagree strenuously that Dina or Nina could not *alone* have physically subdued Rebecca. Both Dina and Nina are gigantic size relative to Rebecca. Remember Dina and Nina are 5'9" and weight over 185 lbs each. Rebecca was *tiny*, petite, 5'1", 100 lbs only. Compare the physical sizes alone. Dina *alone* could physically subdue Rebecca especially if Rebecca was in a vulnerable position to begin with. E.g., Rebecca might have been in the shower, naked with her back to Dina or Nina as either one approached her from behind. With the water running, Rebecca would not have heard anyone creep up on her.

It is an empirical fact that irrespective of one's physical size, circumstances alone could allow anyone of any size to physically subdue another.

Here's another example. Perhaps Rebecca was already asleep in bed. Dina or Nina creeps in to a dark bedroom and jumps atop Rebecca. How easy would that be for either twin to physically subdue Rebecca?

Here's a different but a highly probable scenario. *Both* twins physically subdued Rebecca either while she was showering or sleeping.

As to Adam, at some point, he might have been recruited to throw Rebecca's unconscious body over the balcony railing in order to hide the fact that she had already been strangled to death by one or both sisters or with noose. Remember all three defendants (Dina, Nina and Adam) have sailing and special knot tying experience. Rebecca didn't. So we can eliminate Rebecca from having tied complex knots on herself. Hence, Rebecca was viciously and gruesomely murdered by Dina, Nina and probably Adam brought in to stage crime scene.

The autopsy noted Rebecca was 5' 3 1/2", not 5' 1". Do you have a link that shows both Dina and Nina's height and weight? TIA

The Zahaus alledge that DIna and Nina overpowered Rebecca in the courtyard. Even though she was know to be an extremely fast runner. That is what they are alledgeing in their wrongful death suit. Isn't that the theory we should be discussing?

 

[Ausgirl]

Speaking of the autopsy.. I think Wecht might prove a great witness for the case, if he can explain clearly why the condition of Rebecca's body does not support a suicide finding, and furthermore supports that she was more likely the victim of homicide. I was reviewing some of that info yesterday and doing a little digging for clarity's sake:

-- Abrasions on her body that could NOT have come from swinging into plants.
-- Multiple planes of abrasion injury, so she'd basically have to have rolled like an alligator on the rail and then kind of slid down it on two different angles before falling over it and then swinging into a tree before falling to her death to produce ALL of the injuries evident on her body. Which is not supported by the apparent situational evidence, nor does it match the scenario put forward by the SDSO.
-- The contusions on her head, which Wecht said could have stunned her.
-- Wecht said he saw evidence that supports strangulation, rather than hanging. This is true, says my research, outlined below, regarding Rebecca's throat injuries. Some of which are highly "unusual" in long drop hangings, or indeed ANY kind of hanging, but are far more common in homicidal strangulation. Which in turn is interesting because:
-- There are OTHER marks on Rebecca's neck which would be highly "unusual" in a hanging death, especially a long drop death.

Rebecca's death, as SDSO wants us to see it, was a complete, long drop hanging. Ie, she jumped from a height longer than her own body length, allowing her body weight and gravity to cause the damage to her throat. Her feet were not near the ground, she was fully suspended, another "unusual" thing to happen in a suicidal hanging, the vast majority of which are "incomplete", ie, portions of the body remain in contact with the ground. Also much more common are "short drop" hangings, where the person kick a chair out, for example, from under themselves leaving them hanging fully or partially suspended.

Each type of hanging has its own "usual" and recognisable sets of injuries.
Rebecca's death does not resemble a long drop hanging.
Rebecca's throat has one injury UNCOMMON to ALL hanging deaths. In fact, it's a textbook (actually IN the textbooks!) big red flag for homicide.

I *do* have a pile of links and supporting information for all of this, but it will have to wait for another post and the time to compile it properly. It's coming,though.

But when you add these several highly "unusual" or "inexplicable" pieces of evidence to the REST of the "unusual" or "inexplicable" aspects of this case, the suicide finding just becomes completely insupportable.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Good question.

Adam allegedly found Rebecca hanging. Then using a knife he retrieved from the mansion kitchen, Adam allegedly used a table to climb and cut the rope Rebecca was hanging from. Adam also alleged he loosened the wrist bindings in order to attempt CPR and removed what he called 'the gag' from Rebecca's mouth. It is logical to think Adam's DNA would have been found in several areas. The rope, the knife, the gag and areas he touched while attempting CPR. No, Adam's DNA was not found. I believe this is an area of interest to the Zahau attorneys. Maybe they have a forensic specialist who can answer this question. I think if the WDS goes to trial this will likely be included in their case.

Thanks for this info. It's important for sure.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Why would they test the knife Adam used, or the gag, or the area of rope he touched. That in no way would tell LE who killed Rebecca Zahau, but the DNA that was on the inside of the rope knots, proved Rebecca Zahau, and only Rebecca Zahau tied the knots around her wrists, ankles, and neck.

 

[MissUnderstood]

This is one bizarre case!!! I really would hate to be a decision maker on the outcome in this suit.


MOO!!

 

[LuckyLucy2]

It is not as bizarre as it has been made out to be. Max's accident was on Monday, and Rebecca took her life about 40 hours later. All the DNA, fingerprints, and footprints, along with her diary entries, and her sending her sister home early Tuesday morning, boarding her dog, all prove it was suicide. Sadly, either her family is truly in denial, or they know it was suicide and are out to make money, since Shacknai himself is worth millions. I think the case will be dismissed, since the Zahaus have no real evidence, only crazy theories and speculation. Since the SDSO worked with the FBI and Department of Justice and had 15 detectives working around the clock to solve the death, it is pretty cut and dried that it was a suicide. Anyone that looks at science and fact over wild speculation will see that very easily, IMO.

 

[MissUnderstood]

It is not as bizarre as it has been made out to be. Max's accident was on Monday, and Rebecca took her life about 40 hours later. All the DNA, fingerprints, and footprints, along with her diary entries, and her sending her sister home early Tuesday morning, boarding her dog, all prove it was suicide. Sadly, either her family is truly in denial, or they know it was suicide and are out to make money, since Shacknai himself is worth millions. I think the case will be dismissed, since the Zahaus have no real evidence, only crazy theories and speculation. Since the SDSO worked with the FBI and Department of Justice and had 15 detectives working around the clock to solve the death, it is pretty cut and dried that it was a suicide. Anyone that looks at science and fact over wild speculation will see that very easily, IMO.

Thanks for your incite. I just can't decide in my crazy mind either way.
I can see her doing this to herself after the death of Max.
I just can't understand the extravagance of the alleged suicide. The naked thing is not right to me, unless it was for more shock value in who would find her.
If she was so distraught over this child's death I don't picture her as a selfish heartless person and I guess I can't make my mind understand why she would let herself be found that way.


MOO!!

 

[LuckyLucy2]

IMO, she thought Jonah would come to the house and find her when she didn't answer her phone in the morning, or bring him fresh clothes as planned. I think she did it nude for Jonah. To shock him even further. IMO, there was anger more so than sadness in the way she did it.

I believe Jonah had told her in the voice message he left that Max was not gorng to make it and that Child Protective Services would be interviewing her. I also think he told her that she would need to move out of the mansion, since family would be coming and to have her there would be too awkward. I think he asked her to leave until the CPS investigation was completed.

There was a letter addressed to Jonah in the last room she was in, the one with the balcony she hung herself from, but the contents were never released. I don't think that she thought anyone but Jonah would see her nude since it was a privat courtyard. How could she have foreseen all the media helicopters?

 

[LuckyLucy2]

MissUnderstood, here is the official SDSO information on the deaths. It is very informative to see the true facts...

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/

 

[*Lash*]

Why would they test the knife Adam used, or the gag, or the area of rope he touched. That in no way would tell LE who killed Rebecca Zahau, but the DNA that was on the inside of the rope knots, proved Rebecca Zahau, and only Rebecca Zahau tied the knots around her wrists, ankles, and neck.

A detailed proper investigation would test all the evidence. Not cherry pick. LE imo should have investigated Adam's story to prove he was being truthful. Did Adam use the knife to cut Rebecca down or was Rebecca already on the ground? Well, we don't know because the knife wasn't tested. I think a detail like that would be important. Especially when Adam was given a polygraph which ended in an inconclusive result.

 

[*Lash*]

If Rebecca wasn't answering her phone, Jonah didn't need to leave his injured son to come home and check on Rebecca. His brother was staying in the guesthouse on the same property as Rebecca. The first person to find Rebecca would have been Adam.

 

[MissUnderstood]

MissUnderstood, here is the official SDSO information on the deaths. It is very informative to see the true facts...

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/

Wow!!

I'd love to know what's in the note that hasn't been released!!
If this is a suicide I can't imagine how Max's mum and aunt would be feeling. To lose your son to an awful accident is enough to go through, but then to be accused of murder (if they didn't do it of course) would be gut wrenching!

Will the contents of this note left to Jonah be released as part of this wrongful death suit??

I still can't work out why I'm not fully convinced either way!


MOO!!

 

[Ausgirl]

The SDSO report is anything *but* informative, LOL.

Okay -- here's a fact they didn't choose to include in their whitewashed, *advertiser censored*-covering report:

Rebecca had an injury that almost never occurs in hanging deaths.

In fact, it occurs in 0.003 per cent of cases. That's a whole LOT less than 1% of cases. That's really "this NEVER happens" in hanging deaths.

"Cricoid fracture is virtually non existent in suicidal hangings."
http://gangsquebec.com/wp-content/u...ospective-study-on-contributing-variables.pdf

But it DOES happen in a substantial amount (up to 20%) of homicidal strangulation cases.

That's one fact they chose to leave out. I wonder why.