WS: JMK and the RDI Phantom Menace

[Holdontoyourhat]

No, actually it is....

Fiber that we KNOW was left at the crimescene the night of the murder

VS

DNA that we DON'T KNOW WHEN it was left, or by who

And the winner is...

The unknown male DNA under JBR's fingernails that matches DNA on her underwear and her longjohns. This is conclusive evidence that it was deposited the night of the murder. We DO KNOW WHEN it was left. Thats why the DA wrote the VERY apologetic letter.

Parental fibers are going to be ALL OVER THE HOUSE in massive quantities. Talk about innocent transfer of DNA? What about innocent transfer of fiber of PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE? Its on everything, everywhere.

Its all very common, like sand on the beach.

 

[BBB167893]

And the winner is...

The unknown male DNA under JBR's fingernails that matches DNA on her underwear and her longjohns. This is conclusive evidence that it was deposited the night of the murder.

Oh, I'm sorry, that is incorrect. There has never been any successful match between the DNA under JB's fingernails and any other place. The only people who have claimed that were Lin Wood and other hired mercenaries.

BUT, even if it DID, that just increases the odds that JB transferred it herself. Moreover, the highly degraded state of the DNA indicates a fair amount of age. Possibly weeks. The fact that it took 12 years of advances in analysis just to get this much ought to tell you something.

We DO KNOW WHEN it was left.

Not that night, in all likelyhood.

Thats why the DA wrote the VERY apologetic letter.

The DA wrote that disgusting letter because she had her mind made up from the very start and this was a good excuse. I keep trying to tell you that, for all the good it does me. I shall have to resort to stronger measures.

Parental fibers are going to be ALL OVER THE HOUSE in massive quantities. Talk about innocent transfer of DNA? What about innocent transfer of fiber of PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE? Its on everything, everywhere.

Except it WASN'T on everything, everywhere. They weren't even on JB's body. I figured someone would give that explanation, but as usual, I was prepared. I even went so far as to tackle it in the book.

Its all very common, like sand on the beach.

Too bad PR didn't think of that when she was asked about it!

 

[BBB167893]

The DNA + linguistic evidence in RN + loving care she showed to JB = JMK-similar IDI

The fibers + linguistic evidence in RN + loving care showed to JB = RDI

Comes down to that whole Occam's Razor thing, doesn't it?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Oh, I'm sorry, that is incorrect. There has never been any successful match between the DNA under JB's fingernails and any other place. The only people who have claimed that were Lin Wood and other hired mercenaries.

...and maybe CNN? You left out CNN.

From CNN:

John Ramsey found his daughter's body in the basement of the family's Boulder, Colorado, home on December 26, 1996. She had been strangled and beaten. Testing in 1998 showed that DNA evidence found in the girl's underwear and beneath her fingernails was from an unidentified man and did not match anyone in the Ramsey family. Follow the timeline »Tests conducted in March revealed that new DNA collected from a pair of long johns matched a sample previously taken from the child's panties.


Here's a CNN news story that is exactly opposite your claim. Maybe you haven't read this? Or can you show us your source on the 'unsuccessful' match? This article describes successful testing. Are you saying the test results from 1998 and 2008 are invalid? Because I haven't read THAT anywhere.

From CBS News:

The crime lab has two spots of JonBenet's blood found on the underwear she was wearing the night of the murder. Mixed in with that blood is the DNA of an unknown person. It has taken years to isolate, but forensic scientists in Colorado now have a complete DNA profile of the killer. They know the killer is a male. What they don't know is his name.

Augustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails.

 

[BBB167893]

...and maybe CNN? You left out CNN.

From CNN:

John Ramsey found his daughter's body in the basement of the family's Boulder, Colorado, home on December 26, 1996. She had been strangled and beaten. Testing in 1998 showed that DNA evidence found in the girl's underwear and beneath her fingernails was from an unidentified man and did not match anyone in the Ramsey family. Follow the timeline »Tests conducted in March revealed that new DNA collected from a pair of long johns matched a sample previously taken from the child's panties.


Here's a CNN news story that is exactly opposite your claim. Maybe you haven't read this?

I read it. Then and now. But apparently you do not get what I mean. So I'll lay it out in black and white: where did CNN GET that story? From those same mercenaries. I can even tell you which ones. But you already did THAT for me.
That's the problem with the media, HOTYH: you could fill volumes with what they DON'T report. In fact, I HAVE filled a volume with what they don't report.

Why do you think I decided to write the book in the first place?

Or can you show us your source on the 'unsuccessful' match?

I can indeed. It actually refers to the CBS story you provided. A few days after that broadcast, the head investigator for the DA's office at that time, Tom Bennet, released a statement saying that the DNA under the nails was not conclusively matched.

This article describes successful testing. Are you saying the test results from 1998 and 2008 are invalid?

That's not what I said. What I said was this "reporting" should not be taken at face value.

Because I haven't read THAT anywhere.

Didn't say you did.

From CBS News:

The crime lab has two spots of JonBenet's blood found on the underwear she was wearing the night of the murder. Mixed in with that blood is the DNA of an unknown person. It has taken years to isolate, but forensic scientists in Colorado now have a complete DNA profile of the killer. They know the killer is a male. What they don't know is his name.

Augustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails.

You ARE aware who Augustin and Gray are, are you not?

Let us not digress.

 

[voynich]

You know...great minds...and all that.

Darth Dave & Ames-akin

Always 2 sith there is, the master and the apprentice.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You ARE aware who Augustin and Gray are, are you not?

Uh, NOT the people that linked the DNA under JBR's fingernails to that in her underwear? This link is the topic of our discussion, and happened back in 1998. You disagreed, saying the DNA under JBR's fingernails was not matched, but CNN, CBS, and Boulder County don't seem to concur and are freely reporting something different. What about that?

But theres more: forget about the matching DNA for a moment. I can't WAIT to hear RDI's 5 minute explanation for THIS:

"Male DNA found under JonBenét’s fingernails of both hands"

Both hands?!! How on Earth does matching DNA innocently find its way under the fingernails of BOTH HANDS of a child sexual assault and murder victim? DNA that can not subsequently be sourced to anybody?

Imagine you're the male owner of the DNA under the fingernails of BOTH HANDS of a child sexual assault and murder victim and having an innocent explanation! What are the odds? Then add to that the DNA matching DNA found mixed with blood in the underwear, and DNA on either side of the longjohn waistband (as CBS, CNN, and DA is reporting).

Got some talking to do there.

 

[BBB167893]

Uh, NOT the people that linked the DNA under JBR's fingernails to that in her underwear?

They're the ones making that claim.

This link is the topic of our discussion, and happened back in 1998. You disagreed, saying the DNA under JBR's fingernails was not matched, but CNN, CBS, and Boulder County don't seem to concur and are freely reporting something different. What about that?

Well, for one thing, I don't recall Boulder County reporting that. As for CNN and CBS, what part of "why do you think I wrote the book in the first place" did you not understand?

But theres more: forget about the matching DNA for a moment. I can't WAIT to hear RDI's 5 minute explanation for THIS:

"Male DNA found under JonBenét’s fingernails of both hands"

Both hands?!! How on Earth does matching DNA innocently find its way under the fingernails of BOTH HANDS of a child sexual assault and murder victim? DNA that can not subsequently be sourced to anybody?

You're kidding me, right? We're talking about a CHILD here. They get into everything. DNA is the easiest thing in the entire world to pick up. All JB had to do was pick up a magazine or eat a piece of wrapped candy. That's no "5 minute explanation," either. That's what I've been trying to tell you. That is what we have consistently been told by pathologists, criminologists, and so on. But since that doesn't seem to make a dent, it's time to escalate and show you a real-life, honest-to-goodness example:

There's a man in Maine who's doing a life sentence for murder. His name in Dennis Dechaine. 20 years ago he kidnapped, sexually assaulted and murdered a 12-year-old girl named Sarah Cherry. Witnesses put him at the scene, AND he confessed. But if you Google his name, you'll see a lot of people trying to free him. Their evidence? Cherry had DNA under her nails on BOTH HANDS that wasn't his. Imagine that! As one of my favorite authors wrote (nothing to do with this case):

DNA can only exclude suspects in cases of rape, and even then only if the victim was not sexually active and there was only one rapist. In virtually all other cases, DNA can include suspects, not exclude them.

You know, I work like he** to research this stuff, and I don't do it for my health. I do not appreciate having it be dismissed as hasty concoctions.

Imagine you're the male owner of the DNA under the fingernails of BOTH HANDS of a child sexual assault and murder victim and having an innocent explanation! What are the odds?

Better than you think.

 

[BBB167893]

Darth Dave & Ames-akin

Always 2 sith there is, the master and the apprentice.

Very perceptive, Master Jedi. But please don't avoid the issue.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

They're the ones making that claim.



Well, for one thing, I don't recall Boulder County reporting that. As for CNN and CBS, what part of "why do you think I wrote the book in the first place" did you not understand?



You're kidding me, right? We're talking about a CHILD here. They get into everything. DNA is the easiest thing in the entire world to pick up. All JB had to do was pick up a magazine or eat a piece of wrapped candy. That's no "5 minute explanation," either. That's what I've been trying to tell you. That is what we have consistently been told by pathologists, criminologists, and so on. But since that doesn't seem to make a dent, it's time to escalate and show you a real-life, honest-to-goodness example:

There's a man in Maine who's doing a life sentence for murder. His name in Dennis Dechaine. 20 years ago he kidnapped, sexually assaulted and murdered a 12-year-old girl named Sarah Cherry. Witnesses put him at the scene, AND he confessed. But if you Google his name, you'll see a lot of people trying to free him. Their evidence? Cherry had DNA under her nails on BOTH HANDS that wasn't his. Imagine that! As one of my favorite authors wrote (nothing to do with this case):

DNA can only exclude suspects in cases of rape, and even then only if the victim was not sexually active and there was only one rapist. In virtually all other cases, DNA can include suspects, not exclude them.

You know, I work like he** to research this stuff, and I don't do it for my health. I do not appreciate having it be dismissed as hasty concoctions.



Better than you think.

Casually but obviously you've omitted the fact that this same male DNA is not only reported to be under the fingernails of both hands, but also mixed with blood in her underwear, and on each side of the waistband of her longjohns.

Add that to the DA's rather apologetic letter to JR. Remember the DA has more access than you or I to 'information.' Remember 'information' as opposed to 'opinion'? Thats GOT to be frustrating to us outsiders to not have all the information.

Just a very apologetic letter.

 

[BBB167893]

Casually but obviously you've omitted the fact that this same male DNA is not only reported to be under the fingernails of both hands, but also mixed with blood in her underwear, and on each side of the waistband of her longjohns.

That's not what you asked.

Add that to the DA's rather apologetic letter to JR. Remember the DA has more access than you or I to 'information.'

"Having" and "using" are two different things. I was just over at a new thread I started just for that purpose.

Remember 'information' as opposed to 'opinion'?

Remember it? I encouraged you to start that thread, remember? Although, I seem to recall not too long ago the DA saying that we the public had as much information as they do.

Thats GOT to be frustrating to us outsiders to not have all the information.

Admit it, HOTYH: frustrating for both sides.

But that's only one of MANY things about this case that frustrate me.

Just a very apologetic letter.

Yeah, and I'll be glad to tell you what I think that's worth.

 

[voynich]

Very perceptive, Master Jedi. But please don't avoid the issue.

indeed. Who was destroyed -- the master or the apprentice?

 

[voynich]

Comes down to that whole Occam's Razor thing, doesn't it?

The power of Occam's Razor thing is insignificant next to the power of Vaapad!

based on what we know of JMK, if he -- or someone w/a similar love-child psychology -- hypothetically speaking were in the basement alone w/JB, is it plausible he would kill her but then cover her w/blanket and redress her, expressing sexual gratification (garrotting) in combination w/ remorse, love, affection? Attempt a kidnapping, perhaps to continue the "romance", and covering his tracks w/an "RN"

Whether JMKDI is not important, only the psychology is.

The flesh and blood existence of a JMK falsifies a key RDI myth -- this RDI phantom menace -- that there is no such a person who has the fantasy as one who would "love" JB while also killing her. (and given the opportunity, to realize such a fantasy)

To give an analogy, suppose I said there's at least 1 example of a serial killing gay criminal who has the fantasy to lures gay men and kills and eats them cannibal style. He fantasized of having gay love slaves whom he has sex w/ and then kills and eats them. What if this gay serial killer has the opportunity to act on such a fantasy. Does this thing exist or is this some sort of homophobic fantasy w/no basis in reality? a homophobic phantom menace?

 

[DeeDee249]

The power of Occam's Razor thing is insignificant next to the power of Vaapad!

based on what we know of JMK, if he -- or someone w/a similar love-child psychology -- hypothetically speaking were in the basement alone w/JB, is it plausible he would kill her but then cover her w/blanket and redress her, expressing sexual gratification (garrotting) in combination w/ remorse, love, affection? Attempt a kidnapping, perhaps to continue the "romance", and covering his tracks w/an "RN"

Whether JMKDI is not important, only the psychology is.

The flesh and blood existence of a JMK falsifies a key RDI myth -- this RDI phantom menace -- that there is no such a person who has the fantasy as one who would "love" JB while also killing her. (and given the opportunity, to realize such a fantasy)

To give an analogy, suppose I said there's at least 1 example of a serial killing gay criminal who has the fantasy to lures gay men and kills and eats them cannibal style. He fantasized of having gay love slaves whom he has sex w/ and then kills and eats them. What if this gay serial killer has the opportunity to act on such a fantasy. Does this thing exist or is this some sort of homophobic fantasy w/no basis in reality? a homophobic phantom menace?

Wasn't thy gay cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer?

As far as JMK- I don't think he fantasized about killing JB. He fantasized about sex with her. If he'd gotten to her would he have raped her? Maybe. But he'd have left DNA at the crime scene.
I know the point you are trying to make, but to discuss whether a pedophile like JMK would act on his fantasies doesn't matter. It must be assumed that ANY pedophile would act on their fantasy if given access to a child. When a pedophile murders a child they have victimized, it is because once they have fulfilled the sex part, they have no further use for the child. The child becomes something to be disposed of. This is NOT the case when a child is being assaulted by someone they know. In that situation, the abuse is usually ongoing and rarely results in the child being killed.
JMK wanted a RELATIONSHIP with JB. He didn't want to kill her.
He only said he'd killed her accidentally because she HAD been killed. How else to explain why she was dead? He couldn't say he'd had sex with her, left her and then someone else happened to attempt a kidnapping and then murder her the same night (all with the parents home, mind you).

 

[BBB167893]

The power of Occam's Razor thing is insignificant next to the power of Vaapad!

based on what we know of JMK, if he -- or someone w/a similar love-child psychology -- hypothetically speaking were in the basement alone w/JB, is it plausible he would kill her but then cover her w/blanket and redress her, expressing sexual gratification (garrotting) in combination w/ remorse, love, affection? Attempt a kidnapping, perhaps to continue the "romance", and covering his tracks w/an "RN"

Whether JMKDI is not important, only the psychology is.

The psychology of someone like JMK is that he could ALLOW himself to believe all that because since he didn't actually do it, he had plenty of time to reverse-engineer it in his head.

The flesh and blood existence of a JMK falsifies a key RDI myth -- this RDI phantom menace -- that there is no such a person who has the fantasy as one who would "love" JB while also killing her. (and given the opportunity, to realize such a fantasy)

I don't think you quite understand, Master voynich. I'm not aware of anyone, RDI, IDI or FS, who has said that this mindset does not exist.

But that's why I mentioned Occam's Razor in response to the dueling claims you and Ames made. Occam's Razor states that when two hypotheses claim to explain the same event, the simplest one is most likely to be true. And in that regard, Ames has the big advantage: the Rs were home. There's no argument about that. Conversely, it's one thing to believe that such a creature exists. It's another thing altogether to place him there!

Secondly, I wasn't sure what you meant when you used the term "phantom menace." Now that you have spelled it out, I find it odd how parallel our thoughts sometimes run. Last week I told you that it's common for dissembling criminals to create alibis by playing on popular fears, in effect, creating a phantom menace. You did not challenge me at that time. My assertion was not that such things do not exist, but rather that society's fear of such things, fed by a sensationalist media, is heavily disproportionate to the actual occurence.

In other words, a bright light, cast from the right direction, can cause even the smallest thing to cast a giant shadow. And shadows are like phantoms: they look frightening, but there's far less to them than appears.

To give an analogy, suppose I said there's at least 1 example of a serial killing gay criminal who has the fantasy to lures gay men and kills and eats them cannibal style. He fantasized of having gay love slaves whom he has sex w/ and then kills and eats them. What if this gay serial killer has the opportunity to act on such a fantasy. Does this thing exist or is this some sort of homophobic fantasy w/no basis in reality? a homophobic phantom menace?

I wouldn't even hazard a guess. But I would imagine that the fear of such a creature is greater than the actual threat.

Keep in mind, you present your arguments admirably.

 

[Ames]

Uh, NOT the people that linked the DNA under JBR's fingernails to that in her underwear? This link is the topic of our discussion, and happened back in 1998. You disagreed, saying the DNA under JBR's fingernails was not matched, but CNN, CBS, and Boulder County don't seem to concur and are freely reporting something different. What about that?

But theres more: forget about the matching DNA for a moment. I can't WAIT to hear RDI's 5 minute explanation for THIS:

"Male DNA found under JonBenét’s fingernails of both hands"

Both hands?!! How on Earth does matching DNA innocently find its way under the fingernails of BOTH HANDS of a child sexual assault and murder victim? DNA that can not subsequently be sourced to anybody?

Imagine you're the male owner of the DNA under the fingernails of BOTH HANDS of a child sexual assault and murder victim and having an innocent explanation! What are the odds? Then add to that the DNA matching DNA found mixed with blood in the underwear, and DNA on either side of the longjohn waistband (as CBS, CNN, and DA is reporting).

Got some talking to do there.

From the Rocky Mountain New..
"What was found in the investigation
DNA evidence from the JonBenet Ramsey murder:
• DNA from under her fingernails, poor quality.
• Foreign male DNA recovered from a spot of her blood in her panties, of only moderate quality"
==============================

So, I guess it depends on what news paper or channel you believe.

 

[voynich]

Keep in mind, you present your arguments admirably.

I feel the good in you, the conflict. You couldn't bring yourself to destroy me before and I don't believe you'll do it now :crazy:

 

[DeeDee249]

I feel the good in you, the conflict. You couldn't bring yourself to destroy me before and I don't believe you'll do it now :crazy:

Maybe not, but I WILL! :crazy:

 

[voynich]

Wasn't thy gay cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer?

One among many

warning, graphic description! read at your own risk. www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,502792,00.html

 

[voynich]

The psychology of someone like JMK is that he could ALLOW himself to believe all that because since he didn't actually do it, he had plenty of time to reverse-engineer it in his head.

I don't think you quite understand, Master voynich. I'm not aware of anyone, RDI, IDI or FS, who has said that this mindset does not exist.

But that's why I mentioned Occam's Razor in response to the dueling claims you and Ames made. Occam's Razor states that when two hypotheses claim to explain the same event, the simplest one is most likely to be true. And in that regard, Ames has the big advantage: the Rs were home. There's no argument about that. Conversely, it's one thing to believe that such a creature exists. It's another thing altogether to place him there!

Secondly, I wasn't sure what you meant when you used the term "phantom menace." Now that you have spelled it out, I find it odd how parallel our thoughts sometimes run. Last week I told you that it's common for dissembling criminals to create alibis by playing on popular fears, in effect, creating a phantom menace. You did not challenge me at that time. My assertion was not that such things do not exist, but rather that society's fear of such things, fed by a sensationalist media, is heavily disproportionate to the actual occurence.

In other words, a bright light, cast from the right direction, can cause even the smallest thing to cast a giant shadow. And shadows are like phantoms: they look frightening, but there's far less to them than appears.



I wouldn't even hazard a guess. But I would imagine that the fear of such a creature is greater than the actual threat.

Keep in mind, you present your arguments admirably.

Darth Dave, we meet again at last. The circle is now complete When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master.

I'm responding specifically to the RDI claim, made by many, that no "intruder" would kill, write an RN, redress, and show elements of proprietary interest. While JMK could "reverse engineer" the events, he still has the fantasy of accidentally murdering JB, showing love to JB, and romancing her, and writing an RN to boot. So it's not inconceivable.

Oh by phantom menace I was thinking this: I just want to tell you the truth, yes the truth. What if I told you there is a Dark Lord of the RDI in the Websleuths forum? Hundreds of RDI's are in alligence with this Dark Lord of the Sith. He betrayed one, and he came to me for my help. Don't be so sure my friend, the Dark Side clouds their eyes.
You must join me SD-WON, and together we will destroy the Sith!

I find it odd how parallel our thoughts sometimes run.

Well the Sith and the Jedi are alike in almost every respect, including their quest for greater power.

Your use of Occam's Razor explains DNA evidence, and the magnitude of JB's injuries and suffering, as "innocent transfer" and "staging" My use of Occam's Razor explains DNA and JB's injuries, RN, unsourced tape, cords, etc., as an IDI.