Zimmerman bullying Middle Eastern co-worker

[flourish]

I don't think you can tell whether someone is a racist by their sense of humor. IMO, that's absurd. You can tell a racist because they usually expound at length about the inferiority of the race they've chosen to hate. AFAIK, GZ isn't a proponent of eugenics.

FTR, I don't embrace the social construct of separate races.

I strongly disagree. If someone repeatedly makes "jokes" about a particular race, class, or group, then yes, I can certainly tell they are a racist or bigot. A lot of people seem to think that if it's said in a joking manner, then it "doesn't count." IMO, that's just someone who has learned that expounding at length about said race, class, or group is distasteful and off-putting to many other people, so they hide behind their "jokes." I don't think racism has to be so pronounced that one must be outwardly verbose about it in order for it to qualify as racism.

 

[flourish]

Well, it IS funny to some, and that's why Achmed the Terrorist sells tickets to shows and CD's.

Although I can't stand that character, he's just not funny. But he does sound like that witness.

Wow. Just....wow.

 

[JeannaT]

And don't most people who are of native Middle Eastern decent all sound the same??? You have to give them credit. They seem to have no problems speaking English which is more than I could say if I were to go to their country. jmo

I know you weren't asking me, and I don't know if you were kidding in that first sentence, but they don't all sound the same to me. This guy, to me, sounds like the voice of Achmed, which is actually a ventriloquist's character.

It's interesting that the witness states that George noticed the other guys didn't like the witness, so to ingratiate himself with them he also agreed that he didn't like the witness.

I'm curious to know how the formal complaint worked out, and what the other co-workers would say about this.

 

[suzihawk]

What does the media have to do with it? This is a statement the guy is giving to the police isn't it?

Agreed, Doc.

Maybe a separate thread should be opened where people can discuss the media's involvement in this case.

 

[JeannaT]

Wow. Just....wow.

Uh, wow, what? That a voice sounds similar?

I listen to a lot of radio, and listen to a lot of voices, and some sound the same. It surprised me how VERY similar the voice of "Newman" from Seinfeld sounds like Richard Thomas, who played JohnBoy Walton in his youth. And how similar Tim Allen's voice is to George Clooney's. You don't notice it if you're looking at these people, but just hearing them, they sound similar. I thought George Clooney read the part of Buzz Lightyear while I was watching the movie the first time.

To me, Achmed and the Witness have similar voices. if that's somehow offensive, or surprising, or whatever made you say "wow", I guess i don't get it.

 

[stmarysmead]

It is discovery released because of the sunshine law.

And why is it "discovery?" What do workplace disagreements have to do with that night? Thisis not ugly coping. He was not following a Middle Easterner when that ethnicity had committed no previous crimes in that area.

Even if Gz were insensitive to middle Easterners that would not change the crime demographics in that condo complex or his reason for watching TM .It would not change his own Black heritage...it would not change the fact that he had close Black friends...or the injuries inflicted on him by TM.

This is trial by smear...hoping for jury nullification if the law and facts call for acquital.

 

[LambChop]

I know you weren't asking me, and I don't know if you were kidding in that first sentence, but they don't all sound the same to me. This guy, to me, sounds like the voice of Achmed, which is actually a ventriloquist's character.

It's interesting that the witness states that George noticed the other guys didn't like the witness, so to ingratiate himself with them he also agreed that he didn't like the witness.

I'm curious to know how the formal complaint worked out, and what the other co-workers would say about this.

Yes, I know who Achmed is. It's still bullying no matter how you slice the cake. Ganging up on someone is not the picture GZ's family is trying to paint of him. It seems as if more and more people are stepping forward with these interesting stories about the real GZ. Maybe they are out to get even, or maybe when they heard about what happened they thought, "that could have been me." Either case, it get more interesting as the days go by. jmo

 

[JeannaT]

Yes, I know who Achmed is. It's still bullying no matter how you slice the cake. Ganging up on someone is not the picture GZ's family is trying to paint of him. It seems as if more and more people are stepping forward with these interesting stories about the real GZ. Maybe they are out to get even, or maybe when they heard about what happened they thought, "that could have been me." Either case, it get more interesting as the days go by. jmo

well, and then if we really cut this case to its core, it doesn't matter if he WAS a bully in workplace politics.

What happened is what happened (whatever that turns out to be, by the totality of the evidence). If he had in fact been guilty of ganging up on a co-worker and participating in making fun of a man nobody liked doesn't really have any bearing - to me - on whether GZ was jumped by Travon Martin and then had reasonable fear for his life while he was being beaten up.

That's what this case boils down to. Did Trayvon have such an upper hand in a physical combat that a reasonable person would react like GZ, and kill him to save his own safety?

Some guy who works as a salesman in some place and who was the butt of some unflattering jokes isn't really an issue here, I don't believe. It's all smoke and mirrors and distractions, IMHO.

 

[LambChop]

And why is it "discovery?" What do workplace disagreements have to do with that night? Thisis not ugly coping. He was not following a Middle Easterner when that ethnicity had committed no previous crimes in that area.

Even if Gz were insensitive to middle Easterners that would not change the crime demographics in that condo complex or his reason for watching TM .It would not change his own Black heritage...it would not change the fact that he had close Black friends...or the injuries inflicted on him by TM.

This is trial by smear...hoping for jury nullification if the law and facts call for acquital.

It shows bias against people who are "different" than he is. That he lumps all people from an ethnic group into one catagory associated with crimes. Such as an example of Middle East (as terrorist), young black males (as thugs). It shows he profiled people. What possible reason could there have been to make fun of this man? Most companies will fire you for doing this exact thing. jmo

 

[gxm]

I strongly disagree. If someone repeatedly makes "jokes" about a particular race, class, or group, then yes, I can certainly tell they are a racist or bigot. A lot of people seem to think that if it's said in a joking manner, then it "doesn't count." IMO, that's just someone who has learned that expounding at length about said race, class, or group is distasteful and off-putting to many other people, so they hide behind their "jokes." I don't think racism has to be so pronounced that one must be outwardly verbose about it in order for it to qualify as racism.

Well, then just about everyone is a racist or a bigot because an awful lot of people like jokes at other folks' expense. It seems to be a common human trait.

I had not realized that this "Achmed the Terrorist" was a comedy routine. IMO, that makes this whole "controversy" even more ridiculous. It wasn't something GZ even came up with, it's a puppet routine!

Regardless, the Middle Eastern "race" is Caucasian so if GZ is "racist" towards Caucasians then how in the world does that have anything to do with his confrontation with an AA teenager? (Not that I think GZ is racist but just taking the opposing argument that has been presented to its logical conclusion.)

JMO, OMO, and MOO

 

[LambChop]

well, and then if we really cut this case to its core, it doesn't matter if he WAS a bully in workplace politics.

What happened is what happened (whatever that turns out to be, by the totality of the evidence). If he had in fact been guilty of ganging up on a co-worker and participating in making fun of a man nobody liked doesn't really have any bearing - to me - on whether GZ was jumped by Travon Martin and then had reasonable fear for his life while he was being beaten up.

That's what this case boils down to. Did Trayvon have such an upper hand in a physical combat that a reasonable person would react like GZ, and kill him to save his own safety?

Some guy who works as a salesman in some place and who was the butt of some unflattering jokes isn't really an issue here, I don't believe. It's all smoke and mirrors and distractions, IMHO.

The reason it is in evidence is because it shows he was predisposed to profiling. Other evidence shows none of GZ's DNA was under TM's nails. It appears all TM wanted to do was get away. JMO

 

[JeannaT]

It shows bias against people who are "different" than he is. That he lumps all people from an ethnic group into one catagory associated with crimes. Such as an example of Middle East (as terrorist), young black males (as thugs). It shows he profiled people. What possible reason could there have been to make fun of this man? Most companies will fire you for doing this exact thing. jmo

i still don't think it's important whether GZ profiled anyone or not. If a Black man jumps some guy who happens to be in the Klan, and punches him and breaks his nose and blackens his eyes and pounds the back of his head, it's legally justifiable for the Klan guy to kill his attacker in self-defense.

I don't know why GZ was making fun of this guy, but it is a window that the witness himself acknowledges the other coworkers didn't like him, and that was the cause of GZ making fun of him - to gain their favor.

But again, this case is a total red herring in my opinion.

 

[JeannaT]

The reason it is in evidence is because it shows he was predisposed to profiling. Other evidence shows none of GZ's DNA was under TM's nails. It appears all TM wanted to do was get away. JMO

Why would GZ's DNA be under Trayvon's nails? Both were wearing long sleeved jackets, so grabbing arms and flinging someone down wouldn't result in skin fragments being under nails, ad as I understand it neither had scratches. You don't get DNA under your nails if they are cropped the way men crop their nails, and then straddle them and punch them repeatedly. As the witness said he saw, and evidence seems clear on GZ that he was repeatedly punched.

Evidence wouldn't appear under the fingernails in that case.

Getting on top of someone and punching them is kind of an odd way to try to get away.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

And why is it "discovery?" What do workplace disagreements have to do with that night? Thisis not ugly coping. He was not following a Middle Easterner when that ethnicity had committed no previous crimes in that area.

Even if Gz were insensitive to middle Easterners that would not change the crime demographics in that condo complex or his reason for watching TM .It would not change his own Black heritage...it would not change the fact that he had close Black friends...or the injuries inflicted on him by TM.

This is trial by smear...hoping for jury nullification if the law and facts call for acquital.

I think we are just going to have to wait for the trial to see how this fits into the story. I have seen no proof of his black heritage.

 

[Chris_Texas]

"justice for Trayvon?" How about justice for all the hardworking people who moved to that area to live in a safer place..to raise their kids in a safer place.

How did that "raising your kids in a safer place" thing work out for Trayvon's family?

Only to have the Culture invade their new home...frighten them..Make them live with unease How about Justice for Them?

I am assuming by " culture" invading you mean black people moving in.

So ...Big Deal that TM had to be watched for a few minutes by a man trying to keep that neighborhood safe!

Problem: the man you assume was keeping the neighborhood safe is actually the guy with the gun shooting kids. He didn't make things safer for anyone.

Big deal that he exited his car to do a better job! If we all want safety , we have to expect that sometimes WE or our kids might be looked at closely. NO BIG DEAL if you are doing nothing wrong.

I disagree with the premise, but let's set that aside as irrelevant. The issue is not being "looked at" by the watch, it is with a stranger following kids around at night, with a gun, against police instructions, chasing them when they try to run away, stopping them, and then shooting them.

Why does TM therefore get to beat GZ half to death for the "insult" of being watched a little more closely ONE NIGHT..for a short period of time???

Really?

Trayvon is not on trial. So far there is absolutely zero evidence that Trayvon did anything wrong at all.

 

[LambChop]

Uh, wow, what? That a voice sounds similar?

I listen to a lot of radio, and listen to a lot of voices, and some sound the same. It surprised me how VERY similar the voice of "Newman" from Seinfeld sounds like Richard Thomas, who played JohnBoy Walton in his youth. And how similar Tim Allen's voice is to George Clooney's. You don't notice it if you're looking at these people, but just hearing them, they sound similar. I thought George Clooney read the part of Buzz Lightyear while I was watching the movie the first time.

To me, Achmed and the Witness have similar voices. if that's somehow offensive, or surprising, or whatever made you say "wow", I guess i don't get it.

It's only offensive if you make jokes about someone who speaks with that type of accent in an effort to belittle them. Making fun of others at their expense is not "joking around". It's intimidation that has no place within a working environment where your employer expects you to respect the rights of others. If you are in a bar, down the street, away from work you can make a fool of yourself anyway you want but when you are at work it's inappropriate to single someone out as a target, make fun of them and encourage others to do so, too. It's being a bully, big time. jmo

 

[JeannaT]

It's only offensive if you make jokes about someone who speaks with that type of accent in an effort to belittle them. Making fun of others at their expense is not "joking around". It's intimidation that has no place within a working environment where your employer expects you to respect the rights of others. If you are in a bar, down the street, away from work you can make a fool of yourself anyway you want but when you are at work it's inappropriate to single someone out as a target, make fun of them and encourage others to do so, too. It's being a bully, big time. jmo

Well, I for one, was not making any jokes at all when the poster said that about my post.

Just sayin'.

I don't know whether GZ was a bully, but it doesn't matter in this case. IMHO. The Stand Your Ground law doesn't address whether the person standing their ground is likable or not, or has done things in their past that are insensitive. It only requires that the person has a legal right to be where they are, and a reasonable person would believe they were in fear for their safety or their life before using deadly force. Sounds to me like he fits the bill, but I'm open to seeing all the evidence in court.

 

[LambChop]

Why would GZ's DNA be under Trayvon's nails? Both were wearing long sleeved jackets, so grabbing arms and flinging someone down wouldn't result in skin fragments being under nails, ad as I understand it neither had scratches. You don't get DNA under your nails if they are cropped the way men crop their nails, and then straddle them and punch them repeatedly. As the witness said he saw, and evidence seems clear on GZ that he was repeatedly punched.

Evidence wouldn't appear under the fingernails in that case.

Getting on top of someone and punching them is kind of an odd way to try to get away.

If TM repeatedly punched GZ in the nose as GZ states, any body fluids, blood, skin, runny nose, etc. contains DNA. Most, if not all victims who have fought back have tissue, fluids, blood from scratching their attacker under their nails. Any contact TM made with GZ, such as punching and we know GZ had blood from his nose and blood from his head, but none on TM. To inflict those types of injuries TM would have some of GZ's DNA on him. jmo

 

[JeannaT]

If TM repeatedly punched GZ in the nose as GZ states, any body fluids, blood, skin, runny nose, etc. contains DNA. Most, if not all victims who have fought back have tissue, fluids, blood from scratching their attacker under their nails. Any contact TM made with GZ, such as punching and we know GZ had blood from his nose and blood from his head, but none on TM. To inflict those types of injuries TM would have some of GZ's DNA on him. jmo

So you think the witness who saw him being punched repeatedly is mistaken, and George Zimmerman made those wounds on himself, despite the fact that witnesses saw an obvious altercation?

I'm not baiting, I'm really just asking your opinion. How to you square the fact that unbiased witnesses (maybe several) saw the altercation, and saw GZ on the bottom receiving end, and GZ had wounds that were treated by an EMT on site?

I really don't see how it can be denied that GZ was beaten up by TM, and that fits in with the Stand Your Ground law, IMHO. Whether the law needs to be changed is one thing, but as it stood the night of TM's death, I don't see how it doesn't apply and exonerate GZ. Regardless of any evidence concerning GZ in the work place making fun of someone's ethnicity.

With all due respect (and I mean that) TM was not "fighting back", so he wouldn't have evidence under his nails and there is no evidence that TM had any scratches so there would be no fingernail evidence on GZ.

IMHO, men don't fight back by scratching. Women very often do, but men fight back by shooting or punching, IMHO.

 

[LambChop]

Well, I for one, was not making any jokes at all when the poster said that about my post.

Just sayin'.

I don't know whether GZ was a bully, but it doesn't matter in this case. IMHO. The Stand Your Ground law doesn't address whether the person standing their ground is likable or not, or has done things in their past that are insensitive. It only requires that the person has a legal right to be where they are, and a reasonable person would believe they were in fear for their safety or their life before using deadly force. Sounds to me like he fits the bill, but I'm open to seeing all the evidence in court.

No, I was referring to anyone who makes jokes at the expense of others. A comic is generalizing and not specifically pointing out one person to make fun of them. There is a difference.

It does make a difference and it does matter in this case because it could show GZ was into profiling people. Placing them in catagories because of their youth, because of their race or because he just did not like people because they came from a certain country. It would explain why GZ was so obsessed that night that he "could not let this one get away" and why TM ended up dead. jmo