MI, Grand Blanc - Mass Shooting at Mormon Church, fire, 28 Sept 2025

  • #461
Today It's close to $350,000
imo


It is amazing but they have to stop somewhere. Otherwise people will be interpreting it in a wrong way.

Also, it is not his parents' fault that the shooter inherited their genes but for sure they had access to VA for his drug issues. So they were in denial.
 
  • #462
It is amazing but they have to stop somewhere. Otherwise people will be interpreting it in a wrong way.

Also, it is not his parents' fault that the shooter inherited their genes but for sure they had access to VA for his drug issues. So they were in denial.
I wasn't aware the VA could legally force treatment on an unwilling vet based on his parents' request. Or does it provide treatment/therapy for the parents? I apologize; I'm not understanding your meaning. Could you clarify this what you mean by his parents having access to the VA?

Also, they reported to the police that he stole $15 from them, resulting in his being charged with burglary and receiving a conviction that included mandated treatment. It seems unlikely they were in denial.
 
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  • #463
I wasn't aware the VA could legally force treatment on an unwilling vet based on his parents' request. Or does it provide treatment/therapy for the parents? I apologize; I'm not understanding your meaning. Could you clarify this what you mean by his parents having access to the VA?

Also, they reported to the police that he stole $15 from them, resulting in his being charged with burglary and receiving a conviction that included mandated treatment. It seems unlikely they were in denial.
Do we know that he was unwilling?
 
  • #464
Do we know that he was unwilling?
No, we sure don't. I was responding tp the comment I quoted above that "THEY (his parents) had access to the VA for HIS drug issues".

I wasn't aware that parents of vets have access to VA benefits if their adult offspring have drug addictions. I've never seen that in any of the situations I've personally seen or any cases I have followed, nor in my social work jobs nor in my justice court work. That would be a very usefu benefit to know about and publicize more broadly.
 
  • #465
I wasn't aware the VA could legally force treatment on an unwilling vet based on his parents' request. Or does it provide treatment/therapy for the parents? I apologize; I'm not understanding your meaning. Could you clarify this what you mean by his parents having access to the VA?

Also, they reported to the police that he stole $15 from them, resulting in his being charged with burglary and receiving a conviction that included mandated treatment. It seems unlikely they were in denial.

Rehab, substance abuse treatment or dual diagnosis treatment are costly. But VA has all such facilities. Having been honorably discharged, Tom Sanford had access to such VA services. His parents should have been aware of it.

Indeed, it is impossible to make an adult grown up man sign himself into treatment, but his parents had a certain leverage there IMHO. First, when he stole items from them, them not pressing charges could have been made contingent on TS agreeing to seek treatment via VA rehab (as opposed to faith-based counseling). Second, if indeed TS was recently working for the family business, that provided additional leverage to make him seek help in a VA facility.

Why do I think that places like VA rehabs are potentially better than faith-based ones? Simply, the therapists and ministers in faith-based facilities are compassionate, earnest but many have been clean - or if abused, did not slide that deep down. The best drug and alcohol counselors come from the people who were serious ex-alcohol or ex-substance users. They ...understand and know. Nothing matches this personal experience. They may be very spiritual too, they highly rely on AA, for example, but mostly, if they managed to drag themselves out of own serious mess, they are of incredible help to others.

But, of course, the parents are behaving stoically and honestly and one can only empathize with their situation. Maybe it is more of a conclusion for the future. It seems that whatever pushed TS over the edge this time, worked very quickly.

"In recent weeks, locals said, Sanford began behaving oddly – nearly running over a longtime friend with his truck in a seeming joke, asking a local political candidate questions about his positions on guns and then openly declaring his hatred for the LDS church."

So if you think of it, if the friend's reaction time were worse, Sanford's odyssey could have ended sooner, and he'd be jailed for vehicular homicide. The friend must be horribly shocked now.
 
  • #466
No, we sure don't. I was responding tp the comment I quoted above that "THEY (his parents) had access to the VA for HIS drug issues".

I wasn't aware that parents of vets have access to VA benefits if their adult offspring have drug addictions. I've never seen that in any of the situations I've personally seen or any cases I have followed, nor in my social work jobs nor in my justice court work. That would be a very usefu benefit to know about and publicize more broadly.
No, the parents couldn't force the VA to force therapy on their fully-grown son.

A 40yo man committed a heinous crime and nobody is at fault except him. imo

jmopinion
 
  • #467
Indeed, it is impossible to make an adult grown up man sign himself into treatment, but his parents had a certain leverage there IMHO. First, when he stole items from them, them not pressing charges could have been made contingent on TS agreeing to seek treatment via VA rehab (as opposed to faith-based counseling). Second, if indeed TS was recently working for the family business, that provided additional leverage to make him seek help in a VA facility.
I think it’s quite unfair to criticize his parents for not forcing him to go to rehab. Forced rehab would not be effective. TS knew he had access to rehab. He is solely responsible for his heinous actions. His family are also victims, at least emotionally.

JMO
 
  • #468
No, the parents couldn't force the VA to force therapy on their fully-grown son.

A 40yo man committed a heinous crime and nobody is at fault except him. imo

jmopinion
Agreed completely. The shooter's parents are also victims.
 
  • #469
I think it’s quite unfair to criticize his parents for not forcing him to go to rehab. Forced rehab would not be effective. TS knew he had access to rehab. He is solely responsible for his heinous actions. His family are also victims, at least emotionally.

JMO
Agree 100%, let’s leave the parents of this 40 year old man out of the blame game.
 
  • #470
Moo...war veterans often return to their home country with an altered mind state. There are a number of stories on WS recently that have deaths caused by war veterans and I am sure there a many that don't make it to WS. So in my opinion this issue is something the government could be more responsible for. When veterans return they should go thru de-sensitizing program instead of been thrown back into the regular population. There was the same problems at end of WW2......moo
 
  • #471
I think it’s quite unfair to criticize his parents for not forcing him to go to rehab. Forced rehab would not be effective. TS knew he had access to rehab. He is solely responsible for his heinous actions. His family are also victims, at least emotionally.

JMO
I worked as an interventionist for 15 years. There are studies that show that it doesn't matter how you enter treatment. In some studies forced clients/patients did better than voluntary ones. I of course was hired because in most cases you cannot force someone into treatment. And then the treatment has to be GOOD to work. The VA programs leave A LOT to be desired. I stopped using them after bad experiences.
 
  • #472
Agree 100%, let’s leave the parents of this 40 year old man out of the blame game.

Absolutely, IMO.

This is not a scenario such as the Ethan Crumbley case, when he was only 15 years old, had already indicated certain troublesome thoughts of bloodshed, yet his parents bought him a gun and refused to take him home from school the day the guidance counselor recommended they do so.

THIS is a middle-aged man, married and a father. He had probably not lived with his parents for ages, as he served in the military, and again, he was a married man.

The onus is off his parents and I agree they are victims as well. We haven’t heard anything remotely implying that his parents were involved in this in any way.

An adult makes his or her own decisions, for good or evil.

JMO
 
  • #473
Absolutely, IMO.

This is not a scenario such as the Ethan Crumbley case, when he was only 15 years old, had already indicated certain troublesome thoughts of bloodshed, yet his parents bought him a gun and refused to take him home from school the day the guidance counselor recommended they do so.

THIS is a middle-aged man, married and a father. He had probably not lived with his parents for ages, as he served in the military, and again, he was a married man.

The onus is off his parents and I agree they are victims as well. We haven’t heard anything remotely implying that his parents were involved in this in any way.

An adult makes his or her own decisions, for good or evil.

JMO

Ethan will haunt me for life. He was so greatly failed.
 
  • #474
I think it’s quite unfair to criticize his parents for not forcing him to go to rehab. Forced rehab would not be effective. TS knew he had access to rehab. He is solely responsible for his heinous actions. His family are also victims, at least emotionally.

JMO

No one criticizes them. These parents are stoically coping with the situation. But since we can not change the past, it has to be a conclusion for the future. Faith-based counseling is no match for a serious rehab for an alcoholic and a polysubstance user.

I think that faced with the choice between jail and VA rehab, he’d choose VA rehab. There is no guarantee that he would not have relapsed after the discharge, and chances are, he would have. It takes many stints in a rehab to get clean. So no one can say that rehab would have been a salvation. It is a horrible struggle, and some parents are exhausted and admit to losing the battle. This, too. Sadly.
 
  • #475

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