Trial Discussion Thread #5 - 14.03.11-12, Day 7-8

[Trooper]

No reason to believe the Defence 'expert' witnesses are going to be any more articulate, or expert .. no reason to believe the Defence ear witnesses, or character witnesses are not going to be any less 'confused', or 'collaboraters' or plain out liars..

no reason whatsoever to imagine that Oscars witnesses are going to any more impeccable with their ballistics, or forensics or postmortem conclusions, at all.


No reason to believe that Nels wont get the same leeway, as it is perceived that Roux is getting so far, with Oscars defence witnesses...

 

[minor4th]

At what point does "recklessness" turn to "murder?"

Picking up a gun and shooting it out the sunroof of a car, straight-up, is reckless.

Picking up a gun and shooting it at someone known to be in a tiny enclosed loo 4 times, through a door, hitting them 3 times, and fatally (and OP knew someone was in the loo), is more than reckless, IMO.

That's reasonable and hard to argue with

 

[zqtpie]

Yes, at this point, I am well aware at the amount of time needed for a crime to count as premeditated. But it doesn't always mean it is a premeditated crime. That's why we have crime of passion charges. Sometimes people do fire without thinking. They do it and realize they shouldn't have done it. I'm on the fence about this but I really doubt he thought, "I'm mad, I'm gonna kill this *****!" I think his remorse is genuine.

We've seen enough sociopaths on trial to know what it looks like when someone is trying to fake emotions and sincerity. It's always obvious because we are human and we know what human behaviors should look like. I find his sorrow genuine, accident or not, and sincere sincere. Either that, or he's just the best actor ever. One could argue that it's just him crying for himself and his career. I think it's easy to turn someone into an all out villain with evil and selfish intentions with zero though for thought for others. Maybe things aren't that black and white. I have no doubt his career and the end of admiration is weighing on him. I think that's only natural. But to think his thoughts aren't with his dead girlfriend in any capacity is too easy.

Great post. I think it was a crime of passion, and no, he's certainly not a sociopath (if you use Jodi Arias as a yardstick). The whole thing sucks, for him, yes. For Reeva and her family, oh my.

 

[sorrell skye]

No reason to believe the Defence 'expert' witnesses are going to be any more articulate, or expert .. no reason to believe the Defence ear witnesses, or character witnesses are not going to be any less 'confused', or 'collaboraters' or plain out liars..

no reason whatsoever to imagine that Oscars witnesses are going to any more impeccable with their ballistics, or forensics or postmortem conclusions, at all.


No reason to believe that Nels wont get the same leeway, as it is perceived that Roux is getting so far, with Oscars defence witnesses...

I agree, Trooper. At this point, I don't believe in anything at all.

 

[MeeBee]

No reason to believe the Defence 'expert' witnesses are going to be any more articulate, or expert .. no reason to believe the Defence ear witnesses, or character witnesses are not going to be any less 'confused', or 'collaboraters' or plain out liars..

no reason whatsoever to imagine that Oscars witnesses are going to any more impeccable with their ballistics, or forensics or postmortem conclusions, at all.


No reason to believe that Nels wont get the same leeway, as it is perceived that Roux is getting so far, with Oscars defence witnesses...

I think it depends on how good Nel's will be at cross examination. Minor posted an article that suggests that's where Nel's will really come to life. We'll see.

 

[Trooper]

no reason to expect that Oscar, himself, should he not renege on his firm and documented avowal that he will take the stand ( Bail Hearing Aff ) will not come across as a lying murderous and not a confused little fellow with a propensity for shooting first, and a peculiar case of fear of intruders, when he can fall asleep with his large bedroom windows, blinds and curtains open onto a balcony..

 

[lisasalinger]

Culpable Homicide should be a slam dunk here. But there is evidence that suggests (and yes, I realize it has to go far beyond merely suggesting to proven) that Oscar knew it was a female in his loo, and specifically Reeva. I don't know how the state will get there, but they seem to believe they have the necessary evidence to convince M'lady the judge. And we shall see.

While I personally believe he KNEW Reeva was in the loo, the state has not yet brought evidence before M'lady in court that proves that assertion. But, it's only the 2nd week and there's a long way to go yet.

BBM

I agree to culpable homicide 100% for the following reasons:

1. He was trained on guns. He is aware of what guns do. He cannot claim ignorance here.

2. He had hollow point bullets in his gun designed to create maximum damage on your victim (death).

3. He freely admits that he shot thru that door with the "intention" of shooting a person or persons... supposed burglar(s).

4. That person (who we know is not a burglar) is dead.

5. The person behind the door was never seen, never heard, never threatened Oscar in any way. His fear was totally imagined.

He willfully shot a human being 4 times because he heard a noise and was scared. He assumed they were dangerous and killed them.

If that isn't negligence, I sure as heck don't know what is.

 

[kittychi]

Yes, at this point, I am well aware at the amount of time needed for a crime to count as premeditated. But it doesn't always mean it is a premeditated crime. That's why we have crime of passion charges. Sometimes people do fire without thinking. They do it and realize they shouldn't have done it. I'm on the fence about this but I really doubt he thought, "I'm mad, I'm gonna kill this *****!" I think his remorse is genuine.

We've seen enough sociopaths on trial to know what it looks like when someone is trying to fake emotions and sincerity. It's always obvious because we are human and we know what human behaviors should look like. I find his sorrow genuine, accident or not, and sincere sincere. Either that, or he's just the best actor ever. One could argue that it's just him crying for himself and his career. I think it's easy to turn someone into an all out villain with evil and selfish intentions with zero though for thought for others. Maybe things aren't that black and white. I have no doubt his career and the end of admiration is weighing on him. I think that's only natural. But to think his thoughts aren't with his dead girlfriend in any capacity is too easy.

So MeeBee, are you of the opinion that OP thought he was shooting an intruder or do you think he knew he was shooting Reeva? And/or do you believe his affidavit is the truth?

 

[Trooper]

One of the big problems that Oscars defence expert re the autopsy is the undigested meal 2 hours before her death..

added to that, the voices Madam Van Der Mewre heard loudly arguing around 1.30... 2.00am..

lots was going on in that household thru that night.. and it wasn't sleeping from 10 pm.

 

[Trooper]

one of the really astonishing things with Samantha's evidence, was.. that on two occasions previously, Oscar said he had heard 'a noise from the bathroom window'.


and lo and behold.. on this night of slaughter.. he hears it again!!..


gimme a break.

 

[zqtpie]

No reason to believe the Defence 'expert' witnesses are going to be any more articulate, or expert .. no reason to believe the Defence ear witnesses, or character witnesses are not going to be any less 'confused', or 'collaboraters' or plain out liars..

no reason whatsoever to imagine that Oscars witnesses are going to any more impeccable with their ballistics, or forensics or postmortem conclusions, at all.


No reason to believe that Nels wont get the same leeway, as it is perceived that Roux is getting so far, with Oscars defence witnesses...

I just hope that Nels comes out with more of a dog with a bone attitude. He's been pretty passive so far.

 

[Madeleine74]

One of the big problems that Oscars defence expert re the autopsy is the undigested meal 2 hours before her death..

added to that, the voices Madam Van Der Mewre heard loudly arguing around 1.30... 2.00am..

lots was going on in that household thru that night.. and it wasn't sleeping from 10 pm.

Excellent points, Trooper. Those things point to proof that there was not uninterrupted sleep from 10pm to 3am (OP's claim). We also may hear about OP doing some of his used car and/or *advertiser censored* activity after 10pm (note: speculation on my part).

To believe Oscar's 'story,' you have to believe neither he nor Reeva were awake after 10pm, neither got up and ate a snack or meal, there was no talking/conversing/arguing. Well we already know that simply is not true, at least Reeva was up and eating within 2 hours of her death.

 

[MeeBee]

So MeeBee, are you of the opinion that OP thought he was shooting an intruder or do you think he knew he was shooting Reeva? And/or do you believe his affidavit is the truth?

I don't know. I really don't know. Both are possible.

 

[sorrell skye]

As Dr. Saayman himself admitted to, digestion is affected by many factors.

In past cases I've followed, stomach contents were never used to determine TOD, since it's scientifically unreliable data.

I was actually surprised Dr. Saayman brought it up in his testimony, as if it was accepted, peer-reviewed, conclusive evidence - which it is definitely not.

Yet one more instance of the State introducing questionable evidence, IMO.

 

[MeeBee]

One of the big problems that Oscars defence expert re the autopsy is the undigested meal 2 hours before her death..

added to that, the voices Madam Van Der Mewre heard loudly arguing around 1.30... 2.00am..

lots was going on in that household thru that night.. and it wasn't sleeping from 10 pm.

This is where I'm getting caught. There's a good bit of evidence that suggests they weren't actually sleeping from 10 to 3. I'm curious when the *advertiser censored* was searched on his phone. What time.

 

[lisasalinger]

Yes, at this point, I am well aware at the amount of time needed for a crime to count as premeditated. But it doesn't always mean it is a premeditated crime. That's why we have crime of passion charges. Sometimes people do fire without thinking. They do it and realize they shouldn't have done it. I'm on the fence about this but I really doubt he thought, "I'm mad, I'm gonna kill this *****!" I think his remorse is genuine.

We've seen enough sociopaths on trial to know what it looks like when someone is trying to fake emotions and sincerity. It's always obvious because we are human and we know what human behaviors should look like. I find his sorrow genuine, accident or not, and sincere sincere. Either that, or he's just the best actor ever. One could argue that it's just him crying for himself and his career. I think it's easy to turn someone into an all out villain with evil and selfish intentions with zero though for thought for others. Maybe things aren't that black and white. I have no doubt his career and the end of admiration is weighing on him. I think that's only natural. But to think his thoughts aren't with his dead girlfriend in any capacity is too easy.

BBM

I really have to disagree strongly with the bolded points.

We are talking about firing bullets that end lives. It's not like an "oops" type of scenario here.

An accidental shooting is one where a finger slips and you never had any intention of even touching that trigger. I don't think this could be considered an accident or a crime of passion.

He freely admits that he:

1. Went to where his gun was supposedly hidden to get it.
2. It obviously was loaded (which means he has already come to terms with possibly needing to use it someday)
3. He walked down a hallway, was supposedly yelling to Reeva to call the police, which means he anticipated problems of some sort.
4. He looked at the door and clearly aimed at it because he hit his target pretty darn well.

No that is not an accident. And I don't give a rat's you know what if he feels bad about it. He doesn't get to say "oops" I didn't mean to do that. The thought that we would even try to justify that scares the crap out of me. He is an adult who need to take responsibility for his actions.

Whether this was premeditated or not... he willingly ended a human life and based on his bail statement doesn't think that he needs to take any responsibility for it. He can't possibly imagine why he's being charged with murder. That is the most insensitive, insincere load of BS that somebody could possibly write in their statement considering he just darn near blew his girlfriend's head off.

Now, as far as his emotions are concerned in court, I have no clue what is sincere and what isn't. People are far too complex to really know. He's probably crying for 100 different reasons.

If emotions and reactions shouldn't be a judge of somebody's guilt... then they shouldn't be a judge of somebody's innocence either. Just food for thought.

 

[Trooper]

I just hope that Nels comes out with more of a dog with a bone attitude. He's been pretty passive so far.

well.. really. he hasn't been passive.. he has put up to the judge the objections that were salient.. salient to a JUDGE.. there isn't a jury..

don't forget.. these two barristers.. Nels and Roux.. are not playing to a jury.. they are playing, if that's the right term, to a judge, their peer in Law and she is also assisted by 2 assessors... those are the ones sitting on the bench at her left, and her right.. the three of them know the law inside out.. its a lot easier to play a jury than it is a judge...

and its a lot harder on a judge .. a jury doesn't have to give reasons for its verdict, but Judge Mapisa does, and it will have to be detailed.. this is the SA system.

Both Nels and Roux know to the finest degree just how much objection and performance they can expend.. lets see how Roux goes when he is hearing his defence witness x-examined by Nels.. could be an eye opener.

 

[MeeBee]

BBM

I really have to disagree strongly with the bolded points.

We are talking about firing bullets that end lives. It's not like an "oops" type of scenario here.

An accidental shooting is one where a finger slips and you never had any intention of even touching that trigger. That is an accident.

This is not an accident. He freely admits that he:

1. Went to where his gun was supposedly hidden to get it.
2. It obviously was loaded (which means he has already come to terms with possibly needing to use it someday)
3. He walked down a hallway, was supposedly yelling to Reeva to call the police, which means he anticipated problems of some sort.
4. He looked at the door and clearly aimed at it because he hit his target pretty darn well.

No that is not an accident. And I don't give a rat's you know what if he feels bad about it. He doesn't get to say "oops" I didn't mean to do that. The thought that we would even try to justify that scares the crap out of me. He is an adult who need to take responsibility for his actions.

Whether this was premeditate or not... he willingly ended a human life and based on his bail statement doesn't think that he needs to take any responsibility for it. He can't possibly imagine why he's being charged with murder. That is the most insensitive, insincere load of BS that somebody could possibly write in their statement considering he just darn near blew his girlfriend's head off.

Now, as far as his emotions are concerned in court, I have no clue what is sincere and what isn't. People are far too complex to really know. He's probably crying for 100 different reasons.

If emotions and reactions shouldn't be a judge of somebody's guilt... then they shouldn't be a judge of somebody's innocence either. Just food for thought.

I'm not saying it would be an accident in that case. It's an intentional act obviously. I'm talking crime of passion/rage, where you do something dangerous and stupid without thinking of the fatal and potential consequences. If this is what happened with Oscar, he certainly wouldn't be the first person who's done such a thing.

BBM: exactly. We can speculate all day why he's actually crying. My point is it's sincere. It's too easy to say the tears are all for himself or the tears are all for Reeva. We're not in his head. We don't know. And, no, it has nothing to do with his guilt or innocent. I haven't said it did.

I'm just trying to be impartial. I don't think Oscar Pistorius is all good or all bad. That's what I've gathered based on the stories from people that knew him and observing him.

This is getting OTT now. And angry. I will just say that I don't base my decisions on how people act in court. It was just food for thought.

 

[Trooper]

Excellent points, Trooper. Those things point to proof that there was not uninterrupted sleep from 10pm to 3am (OP's claim). We also may hear about OP doing some of his used car and/or *advertiser censored* activity after 10pm (note: speculation on my part).

To believe Oscar's 'story,' you have to believe neither he nor Reeva were awake after 10pm, neither got up and ate a snack or meal, there was no talking/conversing/arguing. Well we already know that simply is not true, at least Reeva was up and eating within 2 hours of her death.

we have to believe that Reeva said her last words, the last words on this earth spoken by Reeva Steenkamp was before 10pm ... Reeva slept thru the voices Mrs VD Mewre heard arguing.. ( a mystery couple very close to Oscars house, on top of it apparently) slept thru Oscar getting up to faff about bringing not one but now 2 fans in from the balcony, slept thru the blinds being close, curtains ditto, slept thru the 'noise from the bathroom' got up silently and wordless, and even more outstanding, she silently entered the toilet and silently locked the door.. Oscar doesn't hear this sound..

then chose to remain silent as Oscar shouts 'get out, get out' and 'Reeva , ring the police.. '..

and that is odd just by itself.. He tells , he says, Reeva to ring the police...
but when HE has shot to smithereens a stranger behind his toilet door. HE HIMSELF doesn't call the police.. he calls the private security from the estate!..

 

[turaj]

Why on earth would anyone go shooting through their own toilet door before checking that the only other person occupying their space had been accounted for. Also as his story goes the bathroom window was open, so only a few more steps to look out the window before pumping killer bullets through the door. No ladder to window, no intruder in toilet.

I think it depends on how good Nel's will be at cross examination. Minor posted an article that suggests that's where Nel's will really come to life. We'll see.

Very much looking forward to Nels "coming to life" as at this point the courtroom belongs to Roux. He even sent the state's witness off to do homework to bring back tomorrow. Roux is a master at what he does and my guess is his "experts" are going to be very sharp. I don't know about MiLady but I would be afraid in US if this was a jury trial because I think he confuses the issues so effectively the jury would have too many doubts to convict.