Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[steveml]

Oooooh nooo, his hands were definitely not shaking! 100% accuracy with three attempts to hit Reeva while only having her voice as a reference to her whereabouts behind the door; no, his hands were neurosurgeon like steady.

We are in the realms of the movies now. :smile:

OP's gone from a guy who had a keen interest in guns to the equivalent of Simo Häyhä in a couple of weeks.

 

[BabaJ]

Just find this about the bat/sound test for interests sake.

It is good entertainment but not a scientific experiment, which should be used at a trial! Lawyers on the board should know that. There should be a proper expert witness showing a properly done experiment (and maybe there will be), otherwise the test means nothing. Understand that with any scientific test the procedure and repeating the same conditions is the key, sometimes a small diversion in procedure can result in discarding the test.

 

[Noisy Fan]

OP didn't mention RS showering after her yoga and before retiring with him at 10 p.m. Surely she did though, if his tale is true. Ditto her brushing her teeth after her veggie/cheese repast as close to 10 p.m. as Roux can plausibly put it. Unless they'd both already eaten by the time they arrived home around 6, RS's eating so late doesn't seem to make sense. Ditto her going down to the kitchen while OP slept through her unlocking and relocking the bedroom door.

Oscar had a "stuffed" right shoulder and had a patch on it. Most likely was Voltaren (analgesic - anti-inflamitory) as the only other option would be narcotic. The Voltaren makes you sleepy so ... quite possible Reeva hit the kitchen for a snack while Oscar was asleep.

 

[sorrell skye]

If the state has a theory of what the earlier gunshots were, if not gunshots, they are obliged to disclose that theory and make it part of their case. Nel has not disclosed any theory or made any kind of suggestion that the two sets of "gunshots" were anything other than the gunshots and the cricket bat hitting the door.

It is just not logical or reasonable to hold out for the state to put forth an alternate theory that is suddenly going to explain everything and make it clear that Oscar's statements are false. It's not going to happen - one has to be willing to accept the possibility that the state has little proof of their claims and that they won't be able to clearly show you that Oscar intentional killed Reeva.

All of these doubts that people are experiencing, wondering where is the smoking gun we're waiting for - that doubt exists because the state's evidence is not compelling enough and you want more. That, my friends, is reasonable doubt.

BBM

At the commencement of trial, one of Nel's first statements to My Lady was that the State's case and evidence was "largely circumstantial".

When I heard him say that, I knew right away there would be no 'smoking gun' so to speak, so I didn't anticipate one nor did I feel disappointed when there wasn't a grand finale, as it were. I suspect My Lady wasn't expecting a 'smoking gun', either, based on what the prosecutor said as he opened the State's CIC.

If the State's case is so allegedly weak, why, then, is OP planning to testify and risk incriminating himself? He isn't required to testify, yet he has chosen to do so. I find that very interesting. If the State's case is so weak, why didn't Roux then move for a summary judgment of dismissal after the State concluded their CIC? That's the one thing that surprised me, rather than the lack of a 'smoking gun'. We've read about other SA criminal cases in these threads when the Defense has done so. Curiously, Roux did not.

In every US trial I've watched, the Defense has always moved for a dismissal of charges after the State rests. I wonder if this is only done in SA when the Defense believes the State hasn't presented a solid case to the Judge? If so, it says a lot (to me) that not only did Roux not move for a dismissal, but that the accused is going to take the great risk of testifying.

Every criminal Defense attorney knows it's a dangerous gamble for the defendant/accused to testify, which is why it rarely happens. If the Defense possesses compelling evidence which they believe will refute the State's case, why is OP going to take the stand?

IMO, I think it's because the Defense believes the State has presented a solid case. I also think the Defense believes that the accused is their strongest witness. If so, it says a lot (to me) about the other testimony/evidence the Defense will present if they need OP's testimony to bolster their case.

Like everyone else here, I look forward to OP taking the stand. I'm certain that Mr. Nel is eagerly awaiting his opportunity to cross-examine him.

 

[Viper]

Just find this about the bat/sound test for interests sake.

It is good entertainment but not a scientific experiment, which should be used at a trial! Lawyers on the board should know that. There should be a proper expert witness showing a properly done experiment (and maybe there will be), otherwise the test means nothing. Understand that with any scientific test the procedure and repeating the same conditions is the key, sometimes a small diversion in procedure can result in discarding the test.

The DT did a little experiment like what you describe; it did not work out so well but I doubt that fact will deter the DT from putting it to the court anyway and hoping to get lucky. :smile:

But my question and my humorous curiosity is: who did they have play the male voice and the woman voice? LOL I just know it was OP standing in his bathroom desperately trying to scream bloody murder in a woman's voice. I hope they play the video of that! :smile:

 

[MeeBee]

It is totally bizarre that someone would get up to go to toilet and open the bathroom window?, why would anyone do that at 3am?.
Look how close the bathroom window is to the toilet door, oscar would have barely moved from the sense of terror that washed over him by the time she had opened the window and shut the door.

Really, you never get up in the middle of the night feeling hotter or colder than you did earlier and get up to turn the AC on or crank the heat? I honestly do not find that bizarre. Let's see, one of them stirs in bed, wakes the other, they realize they're cold, Oscar gets up to get fans, Reeva goes to the bathroom and crack the window. Seriously, of all the things that could be bizarre about this, I just don't think this is one of them. It's not odd at all.

 

[MeeBee]

Some people have suggested that if Reeva was standing, maybe the door was not locked and she was pushing it shut.

Then how could he not have overpowered her? All this talk of him being an Olympic trained athlete and he couldn't get in the unlocked door?

 

[screecher]

Yeah,.....but he shot through a closed door not knowing WHAT was on the other side.......moo

Yet genuinely believing it to be an intruder who had come to harm him and his property

BBM

First and most important tenet in weapon use is to know your target.

OP may say he genuinely believes the cow jumped over the moon...it doesn't make it fact.

 

[BlueShoe]

After reading a fair amount (certainly not everything) about this trial, there are really only two important issues for me:

1. Who screamed and when? (There's no doubt there were screams coming from Oscar's home.)

2. How many gun shots were there and when did they occur?

All other evidence is supportive, and can cause me to lean one way or another, but not essential in my mind.

Most of the other evidence supports the State's case IMO.

The only point that supports OP's case IMO is his paranoic fear of burglars.
However this is not enough to sway my opinion of his guilt. Perhaps the Defense will present a stronger case soon. We shall see.

 

[MeeBee]

BBM

If someone was trying to kick the door in, and I was trying to keep them out, I would be leaning up against that door.

I wouldn't. Then you would get hit/kicked.

Also, if she were doing that, instinctually, women will usually sit and hold the door with their back as opposed to their hands. It gets her out of the way and gives her better leverage, adding more strength than she has. Her standing in front of and facing the door does not outline a moment of terror for me

 

[steveml]

As the original question is 'Did the South African Olympic track star murder his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp?' has anybody pro-prosecution got the complete picture yet?

It would be interesting to see how/if opinions differ regarding OP's actions from Reeva arriving at the house until the removal of OP for questioning.

 

[MeeBee]

Also, if Mrs. Stipp was already awake for a bit before the first set of bangs, and Oscar really was chasing Reeva all over the house, why did she only start hearing screaming after the bangs? Wouldn't
she have woken up to the sound of a woman screaming already? Before the bangs, she heard nothing.

 

[BabaJ]

Really, you never get up in the middle of the night feeling hotter or colder than you did earlier and get up to turn the AC on or crank the heat? I honestly do not find that bizarre. Let's see, one of them stirs in bed, wakes the other, they realize they're cold, Oscar gets up to get fans, Reeva goes to the bathroom and crack the window. Seriously, of all the things that could be bizarre about this, I just don't think this is one of them. It's not odd at all.

It is not bizarre, I would have been shot every second night during the summer by my husband in that case when going to the bathroom, opening or closing windows, getting drink in the kitchen, etc. - we had even squirrels running on the roof at night (sounds like somebody walking) and my husband did not start blindly shooting at the ceiling.:banghead:

 

[MeeBee]

It is not bizarre, I would have been shot every second night during the summer by my husband in that case when going to the bathroom, opening or closing windows, getting drink in the kitchen, etc. - we had even squirrels running on the roof at night (sounds like somebody walking) and my husband did not start blindly shooting at the ceiling.:banghead:

Luckily for you, your husband is not Oscar Pistorius.

 

[Viper]

Really, you never get up in the middle of the night feeling hotter or colder than you did earlier and get up to turn the AC on or crank the heat? I honestly do not find that bizarre. Let's see, one of them stirs in bed, wakes the other, they realize they're cold, Oscar gets up to get fans, Reeva goes to the bathroom and crack the window. Seriously, of all the things that could be bizarre about this, I just don't think this is one of them. It's not odd at all.

I think that James may have been more focused on the following portion of his post which you may not have followed:
"Look how close the bathroom window is to the toilet door, oscar would have barely moved from the sense of terror that washed over him by the time she had opened the window and shut the door."

To me James' post was pointing out time. If you read OPs fairy tale, when OP was struck with terror he was at the sliding door and Reeva was in the bathroom opening the window. Those two events happened simultaneously. Then OP runs for his gun (1 second of time), runs down the hallway screaming "get out of my house" and "Reeva call the police" (2-3 seconds of time), and then he enters the bathroom. Now that gives Reeva 3-4 seconds after she opened the bathroom window to do what? And why?

 

[steveml]

I wouldn't. Then you would get hit/kicked.

Also, if she were doing that, instinctually, women will usually sit and hold the door with their back as opposed to their hands. It gets her out of the way and gives her better leverage, adding more strength than she has. Her standing in front of and facing the door does not outline a moment of terror for me

I really struggle with the idea that Mrs Stipp wakes up, looks across at the alarm, and immediately hears the shots (albeit it only 3).

If anyone was expected to believe something like that regarding OP's statement it would be ridiculed with sarcasm.

 

[BlueShoe]

One possible scenario: OP is hitting/kicking the door. He does not succeed, so goes to get the gun. Reeva goes to the door to listen, not knowing he's getting the gun, but trying to hear what is happening. She is thus near the door when she is shot in the hip. A very likely scenario IMO.

 

[BabaJ]

I wouldn't. Then you would get hit/kicked.

Also, if she were doing that, instinctually, women will usually sit and hold the door with their back as opposed to their hands. It gets her out of the way and gives her better leverage, adding more strength than she has. Her standing in front of and facing the door does not outline a moment of terror for me

Could she be holding the door/leaning on the door why she was trying to lock it? This would support either argument, either she was scared of OP or the intruder.

However, the lack of any voice on her side at any moment still seems incomprehensible.

 

[Viper]

I wouldn't. Then you would get hit/kicked.

Also, if she were doing that, instinctually, women will usually sit and hold the door with their back as opposed to their hands. It gets her out of the way and gives her better leverage, adding more strength than she has. Her standing in front of and facing the door does not outline a moment of terror for me

Ugh, the WC door opens outwards not inwards, there was no reason to brace the door because it was supported by the entire door frame all the way around three sides and by the locking mechanism. :facepalm:

 

[MeeBee]

I think that James may have been more focused on the following portion of his post which you may not have followed:
"Look how close the bathroom window is to the toilet door, oscar would have barely moved from the sense of terror that washed over him by the time she had opened the window and shut the door."

To me James' post was pointing out time. If you read OPs fairy tale, when OP was struck with terror he was at the sliding door and Reeva was in the bathroom opening the window. Those two events happened simultaneously. Then OP runs for his gun (1 second of time), runs down the hallway screaming "get out of my house" and "Reeva call the police" (2-3 seconds of time), and then he enters the bathroom. Now that gives Reeva 3-4 seconds after she opened the bathroom window to do what? And why?

Well, I had written out a repose to that part but deleted it because it's just opening up a whole new can of worms.

I don't think after OP heard the window opening it took him 3-4 seconds to get his gun and begin shouting. Seconds, probably, but a little more. I think it could be she opened the window, he hears it, he goes gets his gun and begins shouting. As Reeva is preparing for or in the middle of peeing, that's when things unfold. So 3-4 seconds to go into the bathroom to go to the toilet room to pee.