Trial Discussion Thread #15

[MeeBee]

Thank you for the info. ITA with this.
But- is the blood seen on the cricket bat from her arterial wounds? When I look at it, I think that he hit her with it at some point. It's bloody on the end that would be swung to hit her, not the other end and it's not exactly sprayed, it seems. I haven't read her autopsy, and don't know if any of her wounds could have been caused by an object other than a bullet.. I didn't see the bloody ended bat until about an hour ago.

The state pathologist has already testified and has attributed all of her wounds to the gunshots or the residual effects (shrapnel, bruising, etc.)

 

[DebinGA]

Thank you for the info. ITA with this.
But- is the blood seen on the cricket bat from her arterial wounds? When I look at it, I think that he hit her with it at some point. It's bloody on the end that would be swung to hit her, not the other end and it's not exactly sprayed, it seems. I haven't read her autopsy, and don't know if any of her wounds could have been caused by an object other than a bullet.. I didn't see the bloody ended bat until about an hour ago.

Someone yesterday posted that perhaps OP used the end of the bat to draw the keys on the floor near RS close enough for him to reach through, retrieve them, and open the door. I haven't followed the door evidence enough to offer anything worthwhile.

 

[Trooper]

Here's a link from an attorney's office in Pretoria, SA.

Now, if anybody should understand SA law these guys certainly should.

It explains the possible punishments in the trial, and the difference between the charges (with not too much lawyer speak involved). I've posted the link once before, but they have updated the site due to pubic interest...

http://www.dutoitattorneys.com/recent-court-judgements/comment-oscar-pistorius-trial

dutoits argue from a position of being a defence .. the really best source are the criminal statutes of South Africa itself. SAILLI have them all.


Nel could hardly get the Govt of South Africa to foot the bill for a trial on a non existent statute.. you can rest assured that Nel, and the Judicial Dept of SA know their own statutes, and the criminal law.

 

[steveml]

dutoits argue from a position of being a defence .. the really best source are the criminal statutes of South Africa itself. SAILLI have them all.


Nel could hardly get the Govt of South Africa to foot the bill for a trial on a non existent statute.. you can rest assured that Nel, and the Judicial Dept of SA know their own statutes, and the criminal law.

:nevermind:

 

[SeekingJana]

The state pathologist has already testified and has attributed all of her wounds to the gunshots or the residual effects (shrapnel, bruising, etc.)

There are some wounds which are of unknown origin. Link to thread with discussion of these: "The Injuries": The Injuries - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[MeeBee]

There are some wounds which are of unknown origin. Link to thread with discussion of these:

Yes, I read this. But, from memory, he attributed all her wounds to that of the gunshots or residual effects of the bullets. The bruises he surmised was due to shrapnel hitting her. She also had bruises consistent with bits of bullet hitting her but not having exited and causing bruising. His testimony was difficult to follow as it was closed and we only had media reports to go on. He did not attribute any of her wounds to being hit with a cricket bat, IIRC.

 

[Trooper]

What, if anything, was different about that night that might have been the source of an argument that escalated out of control?

* Tropika Island was to air in 3 days: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ily-reveal-theyre-hooked-reality-TV-show.html

Other OP-fuse lighting ideas?

No one will ever know, Deb.. Oscar will take it to the grave... murderers usually own the last words and actions of those they kill. they can say anything about them, make up any scenario..

I don't think any thing was unusual. bit of bickering, bit of sulking...

hell of a lot of rage, though..

 

[SeekingJana]

Someone yesterday posted that perhaps OP used the end of the bat to draw the keys on the floor near RS close enough for him to reach through, retrieve them, and open the door. I haven't followed the door evidence enough to offer anything worthwhile.

This seems plausible and a likely scenario. It would explain the blood on the bat better. Thank you.

 

[DebinGA]

No one will ever know, Deb.. Oscar will take it to the grave... murderers usually own the last words and actions of those they kill. they can say anything about them, make up any scenario..

I don't think any thing was unusual. bit of bickering, bit of sulking...

hell of a lot of rage, though..

True, but we can make guesses based on what's known. For instance, OP knew that RS visited with an old boyfriend that day. Even though she okayed it with him first, I bet that galled him, shown in his unenthusiastic invitation to stay over "if you like" msg to her. That's just odd from someone supposedly "deeply in love" on Valentine's Day Eve.

 

[Viper]

True, but we can make guesses based on what's known. For instance, OP knew that RS visited with an old boyfriend that day. Even though she okayed it with him first, I bet that galled him, shown in his unenthusiastic invitation to stay over "if you like" msg to her. That's just odd from someone supposedly "deeply in love" on Valentine's Day Eve.

True. My reply would have been: Of course my darling! I'll bring the champaign! See you tonight, Luv ya! :loveyou: :blowkiss:

 

[Gryffindor]

Imo I believe the argument started downstairs. The broken lounge window. Did he throw something at her , missed, or she ran and it hit the window?

Reeva ran upstairs, locking the bedroom door behind her. He went mental trying to get in. At some point, I think Reeva has picked up the metal baseball bat by the bedroom door, inside. He'd managed to open the door fractionally and she's wedged the baseball bat between the door's inside edge and wall. The marks account for a tapering, rounded object.

He was still forcing entry, wanting her to "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE" She then picked up the air rifle beside the door and shot to warn him off. He's not best pleased at being fired at and yells "I'LL CALL THE POLICE, REEVA"

He's getting in, she runs to bathroom, opens window,yelling "HELP" then dashes inside cubicle. She's standing being door, pulling it closed, hand on handle. The rest is devastating history.

My vision of the scenario that occurred that fateful night :-(

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Here's a link from an attorney's office in Pretoria, SA.

Now, if anybody should understand SA law these guys certainly should.

It explains the possible punishments in the trial, and the difference between the charges (with not too much lawyer speak involved). I've posted the link once before, but they have updated the site due to public interest...

http://www.dutoitattorneys.com/recent-court-judgements/comment-oscar-pistorius-trial

Sorry I couldn't concentrate on that article after I read about the case where the man forced his son to get the gun out of the safe and was still found not guilty of premeditated !!
Was that an SA case ?

 

[TorisMom003]

Blood will continue to flow and drip after someone has died - it won't spurt, but it doesn't just turn off like a tap, or clot immediately. A lot of blood droplets came off her hair and are the cause of much of the trail.

But if we go by OP's version of events from that night, he did not move Reeva downstairs until approximately 18 mins or more after she was shot. So how long does it take for someone to stop bleeding and/or for the clots to form? And if the blood would stop flowing, dripping, and would have clotted before that time frame, doesn't it then point to Reeva being shot later than OP said? Say around 3:17 am, when the second set of gunshots were heard by two of the witnesses?

 

[nastasya]

Right. How could he plead not guilty if intentional murder is that clear cut, black and white, open and shut? The state is charging him with intentional murder and now they have to prove it. If it's murder regardless, since we know OP is the one who shot Reeva there'd be nothing for the state to prove and nothing for oscar to plead not guilty to.

The state has presented a prima facie case.

You are 100% correct that the state has nothing to prove because the prima facie evidence speaks for itself.

Victim was admittedly shot by the killer, who intended to kill. It wasn't an accident. He knowingly aimed the gun and shot four times at the victim.

The burden of proof shifts to the defense to show that the killer's actions were not a violation of South African law. This is why they have the trial.

 

[DebinGA]

What, if anything, was different about that night that might have been the source of an argument that escalated out of control?

* Tropika Island was to air in 3 days: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ily-reveal-theyre-hooked-reality-TV-show.html

Other OP-fuse lighting ideas?

* RS had told OP she would be visiting a former boyfriend on Feb. 13.

* OP had taken some unknown blow that prompted RS to msg him that afternoon [NBC]
“you’re a nice guy. “
“You are an amazing person with so many blessings,” she writes, “and you are more than cared for. Your health and future monetary blessings far out way this hurdle I can promise u that.”

 

[sorrell skye]

I wonder how many amputees or otherwise disabled persons in South Africa have killed their intimate partners, and have been convicted of lesser charges and/or acquitted because they were amputees or otherwise disabled?

And of those (if any of the above exist in SA), I wonder how many of them claimed they killed their intimate partner by mistake when they intended to kill a non-existent intruder because they claimed to have heard a noise in the toilet in the middle of the night (as if an alleged noise in the toilet in the middle of the night is such an aberrant, alarming event when one's partner is sleeping over - even for an amputee or otherwise disabled person)?

I expect to hear OP play the role of vulnerable, paranoid double amputee to the hilt when he testifies. Too bad we won't be able to actually see him in the witness box. I was reeeally wanting to watch his body language, facial expressions, etc.

 

[steveml]

Does anyone know if the door was on or off at the time which this picture was taken?

The tiles on the floor seem to be from the wall at the side of the toilet door, and I'm wondering if this was done during the incident, or afterwards, to enable removal of the toilet door.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lla-shot-dead-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

 

[Trooper]

True, but we can make guesses based on what's known. For instance, OP knew that RS visited with an old boyfriend that day. Even though she okayed it with him first, I bet that galled him, shown in his unenthusiastic invitation to stay over "if you like" msg to her. That's just odd from someone supposedly "deeply in love" on Valentine's Day Eve.

way back. when this first happened.. I thought it must have been an enormous catalyst....but as time went on, I have come round to thinking, he didn't need an enormous catalyst to set him off.. could have been anything.. her sandals on the wrong side, didn't pass the salt quick enough.. didn't keep to the right side in the passage.. anything.. who knows?

when I read those texts, where he says, I was hungry and you kept talking to someone, I figured, yup.. could have been anything at all.

the rage itself out of all proportion to the perceived offense..

 

[sorrell skye]

True. My reply would have been: Of course my darling! I'll bring the champaign! See you tonight, Luv ya! :loveyou: :blowkiss:

And I'm willing to bet that your sweetie is one happy lady! :loveyou:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Does anyone know if the door was on or off at the time which this picture was taken?

The tiles on the floor seem to be from the wall at the side of the toilet door, and I'm wondering if this was done during the incident, or afterwards, to enable removal of the toilet door.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lla-shot-dead-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

Think I read somewhere that was done when they removed the door to take it away .