Trial Discussion Thread #31

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it seems that there are still a few posters who are laboring under the delusion that this trial is taking place somewhere in the USA.. some mythical outpost where the accused is always innocent and all presumption goes against the prosecution..

The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies), is the principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted.

--Wikipedia


Of course I do not know the extent to which this applies to the law of SA, but I could only hope it does because of my strong belief that the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt belongs to the accuser. Otherwise, the king can just lock you up in the tower and throw away the key.

But that is why I deferred to the atty's.
 
On a different note been watching some old testimony myself and noted on the side of the u tubes a video that OP did for the Seychelles Tourist Board. He and girlfriend Sam Taylor were hosted in a villa on the islands and the video shows them all over the area. What is VERY interesting is listening OP talk about himself and ST who is a very young girl just so taken with everything that is happening. He never acknowledges her...walks ahead of her...she seems to know her place and keeps her eyes down and says very little. It is clear this is OP's best bet for girlfriend...one that keeps a very low profile and has no life outside of being seen with him. Reeva was simply too much for him. How a mother could let this teenager run the world with this guy I don't know...I suppose they thought it would end in marriage and he would provide financial security and an exciting life. Sam Taylor is very lucky to be alive but then she would have never challenged OP like Reeva did.
 
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies), is the principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted.

--Wikipedia


Of course I do not know the extent to which this applies to the law of SA, but I could only hope it does because of my strong belief that the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt belongs to the accuser. Otherwise, the king can just lock you up in the tower and throw away the key.

But that is why I deferred to the atty's.

Wikipedia - - - not a great source when looking for online references. Did you know that anybody can edit Wikipedia? Some of the "facts" you can find on there are hilarious. Just saying, in case you didn't know :)
 
To those who believe Oscar to be innocent (i.e he really thought it was an intruder): I'm keen to hear theories on a few things (genuinely).

1. The metal plate on the bathtub. What could be the cause of this?

2. The jeans on the ground outside the toilet window?

3. OP telling Baba "everything's fine"

4. Why OP excluded such important information in his bail affidavit such as hearing the window, and hearing the door slam, and Reeva speaking to him when he woke up?

I'm genuinely interested in people's theories on these, as I came into this giving OP the benefit of the doubt but have pretty much changed my mind over the course of the trial.

:)

I think these are interesting questions. It's a shame that the expert had no idea what caused the damage to the metal plate in the bathroom. This and the jeans outside are very difficult to fathom.
 
I would interested to hear how many residents DT will put forward to reject these witnesses' assertions. Given there is none at the moment, these witnesses testimonies are reliable.

Dismissing these witnesses because of the number of people around that area is like if someone was killed in a side alleyway at 3.10/3.17am and 5 witnesses saw it but their evidence were all dismissed because there were a 100 people walked by pass alleyway at 3.10/3.17am. Sorry this is a weird argument to me.

It would be a weird argument if I said I dismissed the witness testimonies.

...but I didn't. :confused:
 
I think these are interesting questions. It's a shame that the expert had no idea what caused the damage to the metal plate in the bathroom. This and the jeans outside are very difficult to fathom.

Yes they are interesting questions, indeed.

I don't think it matters that they couldn't say exactly what item might have done that damage - something certainly did. And it took force and anger. Just looking at it you can see anger in that damage. It's so much like what my ex would do when he had me bailed up in a locked room, furious that he couldn't get at me.
 
it seems that there are still a few posters who are laboring under the delusion that this trial is taking place somewhere in the USA.. some mythical outpost where the accused is always innocent and all presumption goes against the prosecution..

In the South African Constitution, section 35(3)(h) of the Bill of Rights states: "Every accused person has a right to a fair trial, which includes the right to be presumed innocent, to remain silent, and not to testify during the proceedings."

Presumption of innocence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
In the South African Constitution, section 35(3)(h) of the Bill of Rights states: "Every accused person has a right to a fair trial, which includes the right to be presumed innocent, to remain silent, and not to testify during the proceedings."

Presumption of innocence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nobody, anywhere has the right to expect a judge and/or jury to accept what they say in defiance of evidence.. no one. not even in the good ole USA, and not in my country and not in South Africa.
 
the presumption of innocence doesn't trump evidence. never has , never will. That is why trials are held!!..
 
Presumption of innocent is a presumption. Come on. It can be negated by evidence. Even circumstantial evidence. And you know what? OP lied so that presumption is severely watered down.
 
Nobody, anywhere has the right to expect a judge and/or jury to accept what they say in defiance of evidence.. no one. not even in the good ole USA, and not in my country and not in South Africa.

I was responding to the part of your post that referred to the presumption of innocence. SA does have that presumption. Just like the US.
 
There is no ambiguity for the Defence, though.. the Screaming Woman has to, and must be eliminated. With the Screaming Woman, all hopes of a defence against the charge of murder are permanently eradicated, never to be resuscitated again in Oscars lifetime.



Because.. the Screaming Woman says everything about this murder. Every. Single. Thing.

I am so, so sorry for the length of this, once I got started, I couldn't stop.
---------
I so agree. It was my 'guilty' moment but I've tried to keep an open mind so really waited for something tangible and logical from the defence. To date:

- Roux implied Burger couldn't have heard a woman screaming during the shots because Reeva's injuries precluded it. In the same exchange, he stated Reeva's final scream (the one that died off with the final shot) was actually Oscar realising it was Reeva. This scream was across the shots and stopped after the last bang. Then silence (except for van der Merwe's commotion and crying). We'll address this again below.

- Saayman testified it would be unlikely she wouldn't have screamed and Botha, somewhat begrudgingly imo, conceded that.

- Roux has stated the closest neighbours heard no screaming at all - they haven't testified yet though. This was, it would seem, put forth to discredit the State's witnesses but in turn also calls into question Oscar's testimony of screaming, shouting, yelling for help and 'never screamed like that in his life'.

- A male was yelling for help - but this is before the bangs heard at 3:17. An earlier shooting time than this isn't supported by blood splatter or pathology testimonies.

- Screaming was heard before 3:17 and becomes more distressed. If the pathology and blood splatter preclude an earlier shooting time, and Oscar was the one screaming it's a very big problem. Either he was screaming at Reeva and knew it was her or he was screaming at an intruder for several minutes when he 'didn't have time to think' and 'didn't intend to shoot'.

- If the shooting time was before 3:17, as the defence contends, it will explain the man yelling for help but leaves open how a man yelling also sounds like a woman screaming, perhaps intermingled, and shortly thereafter is a woman crying who is in fact Oscar.

- The alleged recording was never played for State's witnesses. And while the defence obviously wouldn't want their evidence refuted not doing so also doesn't bolster such a claim. We're left with no context but personal interpretation and opinion. Even if Oscar screaming does sound like a woman how did the 'woman' screaming 'bloodcurdling' screams sound that night? We will never have that reference.

- He was screaming while hitting the door at 3:17 (remember Burger's tesimony) but once the door is broken down, his worst fear realised, he doesn't see the 'point' in screaming.

In order to believe Oscar's account I have to accept the crime scene was contaminated, tampered, and disturbed; that Oscar's 'fearful and vulnerable' is consistent with 'combat mode'; that 4 articulate and intelligent witnesses heard a man screaming that sounds like a woman, presumably because a high-pitched scream is by human nature associated with a woman, without any evidence presented in court to confirm such a natural assumption; disregard that the man screaming like a woman was yelling like a man as well or disregard entirely the testimony of Dr. Stipp (who has been called a great witness even by those who doubt Oscar's guilt) who has stated he heard two voices at the same time; conclude Oscar's memory loss over key events, while correcting the State on benign and inane minutiae, is reasonable presumably because of a varying human responce to trauma, despite no evidence being put forth in court to establish that; dismiss my own experience of living with someone who has limited mobility; compensate the fact that Oscar behaved differently the night he shot Reeva as to past events with the knowledge that humans don't always have the same responce to heart-stopping fear, in the same circumstances, despite no evidence presented in court; ignore the defence ever claiming double taps; accept that Oscar deeply loved Reeva and getting her birthday wrong is understandable; dismiss the many reasons he doesn't appear to be all that security-conscious; believe 20 people are either inept, corrupt, lying, mistaken, or for some bizarre reason have a vendetta against Oscar; accept that no one heard gunshots at 3:12; ignore that his own expert contradicted his testimony; disregard the pathology and blood splatter testimony that appear to refute the defence timeline and defendant's testimony alike; I can't question calling Stander before netcare; further, I can't surmise why Oscar would even consider picking Reeva up before the call to netcare or why he didn't actually require Stander's help to lift her or why a highly athletic, physically fit young man would need help anyway; allow he didn't know if Reeva knew the security code; swallow that his testimony is markedly different than his affidavit as confusion; stomach him blaming the very defence team fighting for him; acquiesce his adamance that Reeva couldn't have gone downstairs despite the appearance he is tailoring testimony to be consistent with the defence pathologist; conclude Reeva remained mute despite whispering, soft speaking, screaming, yelling, and shouting; believe Sam Taylor is a woman scorned rather than providing evidence of Oscar in a relationship; and, suspend all personal common sense, to accept it is reasonable for anyone to fire four highly lethal bullets into a closed door. To that end, without aiming or intending to fire, managed four shots in such close proximity.

But apparently it is stretching reality, or proposing wild and outlandish theories, to speculate about actual evidence put forth by the State? (e.g. argument, locked doors, bat strikes to scare, etc.)

(Apologies again, for the novel above and any small errors. Writing this from memory, while on my phone.) MOO


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.
 
being presumed innocent is not a forever thing, you know.. it is merely that upon which the basis of a trial begins. It is not a permanent state, inviolable and set in concrete forever and ever..once evidence is presented that demolishes the plea of innocent , that presumption changes. Otherwise no trial would ever be held at all. One could merely say, 'well. you have to presume that I am innocent.. I can do anything I please,' ... but of course, that isn't how it works, is it.. no..

so ..... lets get back to reality.
 

Thank you :)

I was speaking for Wikipedia in general. People quote it so often as gospel, not realising what Wikipedia is. It's simply a collection of information from everyday users, it's not fact-checked and is not a reliable source for referencing facts. I wasn't saying that particular article was incorrect - I didn't even read it to be honest.

As far as I'm concerned, OP lost his right to be presumed "innocent" when he fired 4 rounds of black tallon ammunition into a closed door, knowing there was SOMEONE behind it.
 
I will clarify, I don't think there is a lawful and ethical way to make anyone repeat a behavior that they displayed curing an extreme situation ;)

no one has made Oscar do it. he , apparently, according to his attorney has done so voluntarily.. his attorney has promised the court he will table it. it merely remains for it to be tabled in evidence..

and pigs might fly ,too.
 
They should not be testing the bats vs shots then. Because the confusion re: Bats and shots works BOTH ways. With the current state of affairs re: the DT's timeline in their version - the state will happily concede shots and bat strikes sound the same, as the state's case always has been, the shots were fired at 3.17. T

The bat vs shots from a DT point of view doesn't do much for their timeline and the facts re: Reeva's injuries and time of death. Honestly, I don't know how they are going to keep her alive for such a long period of time in order for their version to even be remotely possible.

As I say, this just me. We are obviously sitting on different sides of the :fence:

(Barry and Kenny don't want any mention of bat first. It is CRUCIAL to their case. Stipp simply stated, if you say they sound so much alike, why can't the bat have been first? - That was a win IMHO)

It is now Common Cause that Reeva died after being shot. Her brain functions and her ability to breath stopped within seconds, but her heart continued to beat for a few minutes:

Quote:
"Saayman said the shot that killed Steenkamp pierced her skull from the top and disintegrated, send one chunk careening around her forehead before exiting and the other crashing into her brain.

“She could not have breathed more than a few times after she was shot,” the pathologist said. “She would have been immediately incapable of voluntary actions, immediately unconscious, although death may have taken a few minutes."

I do not see the DT calling another pathologist, they don't need to. Here on the Internet we have "professionals" that have decided that it is a fact that Reeva's heart continued to beat and pump blood that caused arterial spurts at the staircase and that allowed for Reeva's time of death to be linked to her biting OPs fingers at the downstairs entryway floor at 3:25-3:28 or so. So Reeva's heart continued to beat for at least 9 minutes, and up to 17 minutes (DT timeline). And all of that in the absence of the existance of evidence of significant blood loss. Some say that the toilet contained massive amounts of blood that siphoned away, and that is fine. But the severed artery of her arm did only produced that one significant blood pool in the WC; and when she was placed on the bathroom floor there really was no new, significant, blood pools produced from her head or from her arm, at least to my eyes.

So if we can decide on the Internet that Reeva was alive, at least her heart was beating for a minimum of 9 minutes, then it would not be any further of a stretch for Mr. Roux to assert that it went on for 17 minutes to meet the DT version of events. All he has to do is point to the "arterial spurts" (Nest) on the staircase and Reeva biting OPs fingers as proof of the existance of life. Simple. As least it is on the Internet.

http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1716537
 
I was speaking for Wikipedia in general. People quote it so often as gospel, not realising what Wikipedia is. It's simply a collection of information from everyday users, it's not fact-checked and is not a reliable source for referencing facts. I wasn't saying that particular article was incorrect - I didn't even read it to be honest.

As far as I'm concerned, OP lost his right to be presumed "innocent" when he fired 4 rounds of black tallon ammunition into a closed door, knowing there was SOMEONE behind it.

and I was speaking of its accuracy in this instance, in particular. Anyone here can think what they like. However, it is fact that he's entitled to a presumption of innocence under SA law, just like he would be entitled to one in the US. So the outcome will be consistent with that fact, not with everyone's opinions, necessarily. And for me, that's what I'm interested in. The likely outcome. But that's jmo.

eta: and the ammunition could be called "girlfriend slayer" and its name repeated here 1000 times and it wouldn't change anything. Just had to get that off my chest lol ...whew
 
Molly - if the judge determines that OP fired knowing that whoever was behind that door would likely die as a result of his actions and that at the time he fired he had no reason to genuinely fear that his life was in danger then she will find him guilty of murder. He doesn't need to know it was Reeva - any old intruder will do.
 
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