Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Trooper]

BritsKate.... Oscar sinks or swims on this Screaming Woman.. the entire case rests upon it, and unless Roux and Oscar can eliminate this haunting sound , he is gone to hell.

I agree that Roux and Oscar have tried every damn thing that may even hint or hope at that sound of the Screaming Woman being a figment of peoples imagination, a collective mistake in hearing among strangers at the same time, a try at it being Oscar screaming, every thing that may have the slightest hope of being adjudicated as remotely possible, yet reasonable.. its the unreason of the ideas that Roux and Oscar are floating that is going to sink them 40 fathoms down. . they just cannot come up with a reasonably possible concept for that sound to be happening.

 

[steveml]

Sorry, that is wrong because he said he walked really slowly. So it wasn't seconds. But then the guy is a liar so maybe it was seconds. So I guess in a round about way, you may be right!

It has to be seconds, literally.

It seems quite a while when every movement is being described in court, but the journey from bedroom to bathroom would have taken a matter of seconds, even if he shuffled. It's only about 20ft (at a guess) approx. 7 paces in length from OP's bedroom to bathroom. We should allow a bit extra if OP was on his stumps though. Normal walking pace we take about 6-7 seconds to cover this distance.

The shooting (if each bullet was released consecutively) would have been over in approx. 4-5 seconds max.

Allowing for extra seconds for OP's immobility and a few seconds for him to quickly assess the situation in the bathroom, I would hazard a guess and say the complete incident from OP picking up the gun to having fired the bullets was less than 20 seconds.

 

[Freya1977]

and I was speaking of its accuracy in this instance, in particular. Anyone here can think what they like. However, it is fact that he's entitled to a presumption of innocence under SA law, just like he would be entitled to one in the US. So the outcome will be consistent with that fact, not with everyone's opinions, necessarily. And for me, that's what I'm interested in. The likely outcome. But that's jmo.

eta: and the ammunition could be called "girlfriend slayer" and its name repeated here 1000 times and it wouldn't change anything. Just had to get that off my chest lol ...whew

It does change it though. It's not the name, it's what it does and the intention one has when they load their gun with it.

He knew it was going to rip apart whoever was in that toilet. He knew that and he chose to fire at an unknown target instead of leaving the house.... and for that he is already guilty of something horrific.

 

[Zinn]

I would imagine that being such a hot night that most of the neighbours in such an affluent neigbourhood, would have all their doors and windows closed and their air conditioners on. That the Stipp's didn't was quite likely due to Mrs.Stipp already being sick, air conditioners aren't the best thing if suffering from flu/cough.

It makes sense to me that some neighbors would hear commotion from OP's while others would not based on whether their sliding doors and windows were open and whether their AC was running on such a hot evening.

Lisa Salinger's blog references testimony from Baba regarding open gates and doors. Here's an excerpt:

The main access gate is closed at 8pm in the evenings. And at 9pm all gates to the community are closed.

One of the guards who was on patrol that night came to inform Baba at the main gate that there were some gates and doors open – Mrs. van der Mewre’s gate was open, Dr. Stipp’s top sliding door was open and the 194 small gate was open (not sure where this 194 gate is). Baba then decided to accompany this guard to make sure that all was in order. They did see the 194 gate open. They also spoke to Dr. Stipp who confirmed they were not yet asleep and wanted to keep their door open due to the hot weather that night. And at Mrs. van der Mewre’s, her upper gate (door?) was indeed open and he sent them SMS’s (messages) from the site cell phone to notify them.

And here's a link to the full post: http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/09/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-5-part-2/

 

[Freya1977]

Molly - if the judge determines that OP fired knowing that whoever was behind that door would likely die as a result of his actions and that at the time he fired he had no reason to genuinely fear that his life was in danger then she will find him guilty of murder. He doesn't need to know it was Reeva - any old intruder will do.

Thank you! Even if it HAD been an intruder, he'd still be on trial for shooting in the same circumstances.

 

[Trooper]

perhaps some posters don't understand that Oscar is answering to a prima facie case against him he is already guilty.. its a matter of degree.. Oscar has gambled on being found not guilty of anything, and this is a rather odd stance to take, but he is within his rights to do so. but at the same time, it is to be remembered that Oscar is, indeed , under South African law, guilty of culpable homicide.. so all this talk of him being presumed innocent is bonkers in that context. He isn't.

 

[Really?]

the presumption of innocence doesn't trump evidence. never has , never will. That is why trials are held!!..

if the glove don't fit.........lol

 

[lithgow1]

Thank you! Even if it HAD been an intruder, he'd still be on trial for shooting in the same circumstances.

Yep, that's what legal commentators in SA were saying right from the start, along with putative self-defence being a difficult one to argue in these particular circumstances where he didn't even SEE an intruder. As Nel said to him - it could have been anyone in there, it could have been a child.

What did you make of his comment about not firing a warning shot as it would be dangerous (!) and may have injured him (!!). My impression was that that remark will tell against him further down the track.

 

[Freya1977]

Yep, that's what legal commentators in SA were saying right from the start, along with putative self-defence being a difficult one to argue in these particular circumstances where he didn't even SEE an intruder. As Nel said to him - it could have been anyone in there, it could have been a child.

What did you make of his comment about not firing a warning shot as it would be dangerous (!) and may have injured him (!!). My impression was that that remark will tell against him further down the track.

I think it contradicts his "didn't have time to think" defence, and "didn't mean to fire" defence. He clearly admitted that he didn't fire a warning shot because he thought it may ricochet and injure him. Oh so he had time to think of that? Always thinking of number one.

He could have fired a shot high up on the door or down low if he wanted to threaten them. No, he fired four directly at the point where he heard the "wood moving". He meant to kill, no accidents.

 

[Trooper]

Judge Masipa is going to weigh up the evidence on the balance of probabilities.. . on the one hand, 5 people, all unrelated to Oscar in any context, sleeping peacefully In their own beds, minding their own business, were driven from that sleep , all about the same time, by the sound of gunfire and a woman screaming and a man screaming and the mingled sound of a woman , man and gunfire at the same time.

up against the proposition that either (a) no one screamed or (b) Oscar screamed, and these 5 disinterested bystanders each made the exact same error at the exact same time and misinterpreted the sound of a woman for the sound of a man. One is a doctor, ( former military medic) one is an occupational therapist, one is a former music teacher, now lecturer at Witwatersrand Uni, one is a retired teacher, I forget what the other one is..

At the same time , these people also, and without checking with each other, as they don't know each other, mistook gunfire for the sound of a cricket bat.

And this is what Judge Masipa will weigh up. Who is more credible? them , or Oscar?

 

[Viper]

and I was speaking of its accuracy in this instance, in particular. Anyone here can think what they like. However, it is fact that he's entitled to a presumption of innocence under SA law, just like he would be entitled to one in the US. So the outcome will be consistent with that fact, not with everyone's opinions, necessarily. And for me, that's what I'm interested in. The likely outcome. But that's jmo.

eta: and the ammunition could be called "girlfriend slayer" and its name repeated here 1000 times and it wouldn't change anything. Just had to get that off my chest lol ...whew

BIB1 I think that you are getting so much resistance to that notion because most everyone, including me, feels strongly that OP has no defense to at a minimum Culpable Homicide. But I do recognize that you support OPs defense of Putative Self Defense, which if successful would set him free on the most serious charge.

BIB2. Freaking hilarious!!! LOL!!!! That was a good one! But you are right both Black Talon and Girlfriend Slayer are equally descriptive of the evil devastation that they will bring if fired in to a human being.

 

[wb180]

Judge Masipa is going to weigh up the evidence on the balance of probabilities.. . on the one hand, 5 people, all unrelated to Oscar in any context, sleeping peacefully In their own beds, minding their own business, were driven from that sleep , all about the same time, by the sound of gunfire and a woman screaming and a man screaming and the mingled sound of a woman , man and gunfire at the same time.

up against the proposition that either (a) no one screamed or (b) Oscar screamed, and these 5 disinterested bystanders each made the exact same error at the exact same time and misinterpreted the sound of a woman for the sound of a man. One is a doctor, ( former military medic) one is an occupational therapist, one is a former music teacher, now lecturer at Witwatersrand Uni, one is a retired teacher, I forget what the other one is..

At the same time , these people also, and without checking with each other, as they don't know each other, mistook gunfire for the sound of a cricket bat.

And this is what Judge Masipa will weigh up. Who is more credible? them , or Oscar?

I mean that's the thing. Those witnesses are like million times more credible than OP and yet we are suppose to believe OP rather than these witnesses. WTH? Come on websleuthers, these are basic stuff...

 

[lithgow1]

I think it contradicts his "didn't have time to think" defence, and "didn't mean to fire" defence. He clearly admitted that he didn't fire a warning shot because he thought it may ricochet and injure him. Oh so he had time to think of that? Always thinking of number one.

He could have fired a shot high up on the door or down low if he wanted to threaten them. No, he fired four directly at the point where he heard the "wood moving". He meant to kill, no accidents.

Thanks for that - I'm pretty much on the same page in that he demonstrated both reasoning skills and his 'it's all about Oscar' attitude.

One of the most chilling moments for me in the cross was when Nel got him to admit that the 'wood moving' would have had to be the magazine rack and then used the photos to show how he adjusted his aim to fire at the sound. That's what did it for me in terms of thinking this was no blind rage of indiscriminate firing at the door; this was more like an assassination.

 

[Interested Bystander]

In the South African Constitution, section 35(3)(h) of the Bill of Rights states: "Every accused person has a right to a fair trial, which includes the right to be presumed innocent, to remain silent, and not to testify during the proceedings."

Presumption of innocence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Remaining silent in court is viewed very badly these days and the defendant is warned it may count against him/her.

 

[Freya1977]

Thanks for that - I'm pretty much on the same page in that he demonstrated both reasoning skills and his 'it's all about Oscar' attitude.

One of the most chilling moments for me in the cross was when Nel got him to admit that the 'wood moving' would have had to be the magazine rack and then used the photos to show how he adjusted his aim to fire at the sound. That's what did it for me in terms of thinking this was no blind rage of indiscriminate firing at the door; this was more like an assassination.

This one? Yep... It's chilling

 

[jilly]

This break is way too long a break to really keep the momentum going...each side will have a challenge to continue...but its not a jury trial and I'm sure judge is reviewing it day by day to be ready for her decision. There will be surprises when they start up again ...at least from defense side...they have this long break to sort out their best chance at avoiding another "Dixon disaster".

You just can't make silk out of a sow's ear tho.

 

[wb180]

This one? Yep... It's chilling

Man that does not look like someone that didn't know what he was firing....!

 

[44ALLAN]

Compelling for me: screams; 4 shots; faint light in toilet; OP not checking for presence of RS; Blood in bedroom; 5th cartridge in toilet bowl; OP's history of tantrums; previous reckless behaviour; delayed call for medical help; 5th phone; locked toilet door. illegal ammo.

Questions: Jeans o/s; what OP told Netcare; bat/shots sequence; could OP see RS when he shot her.

I can't think of anything the defence could show that would change view of PM.

Raised voice/voices between 2 and 3am followed by woman's terrified screams which were heard by 5 witnesses before gunshots silenced her...........no brainer IMO.

"could OP see RS when he shot her". ....absolutely just look at the trajectory of the last 3 bullets from the 'above' shot of the toilet cubicle...........he could see her alright and as Nel said in cross.........." you changed your aim after the first shot".
Execution in my mind and don't need to hear anything else really.

 

[Kaly99]

They should not be testing the bats vs shots then. Because the confusion re: Bats and shots works BOTH ways. With the current state of affairs re: the DT's timeline in their version - the state will happily concede shots and bat strikes sound the same, as the state's case always has been, the shots were fired at 3.17. That is on record.

The bat vs shots from a DT point of view doesn't do much for their timeline and the facts re: Reeva's injuries and time of death. Honestly, I don't know how they are going to keep her alive for such a long period of time in order for their version to even be remotely possible.

As I say, this just me. We are obviously sitting on different sides of the :fence:

(Barry and Kenny don't want any mention of bat first. It is CRUCIAL to their case. Stipp simply stated, if you say they sound so much alike, why can't the bat have been first? - That was a win IMHO)

While it's easy to see the possibility of confusing shots and bat as almost "common cause" at this stage, I'm not sure that this was the case at the time Dr. Stipp testified, nor that it was something the state would have happily conceded then. They went to the trouble of establishing Dr. Stipp's familiarity with guns, after all, and hence the implausibility of him confusing the two sounds. It was almost as if they hadn't considered the problems it would raise for their case for there to be two sets of gunshots, which considering they must have known what the witnesses were going to say, is very odd.

The reasons I see Dr. Stipp's admission as a win for the defence are two-fold: first, it opened up the possibility the shots were first, and so the screams can't have been Reeva (remembering that the earlier witnesses had only heard screams and then shots, a much stronger position for the state); and second, it tends to undermine the reliability of their witnesses: if the Stipps were absolutely convinced at the time that they heard shots, and yet were wrong, what does it say about their reliability generally? Might they have been wrong about hearing a woman as well? Sure, they were certain about that, but then they were pretty certain they heard two sets of shots as well... Even if it can be seen as a neutral point now, at the time I think it was very important for the defence to get that admission from Dr. Stipp.

On the timing, yes I agree, that's certainly one of the things (along with the stomach contents) that bothers me about the defence case. I must admit I haven't looked at it in much detail yet, except what I've read on here. So here are a couple of questions for anyone who might know: firstly, doesn't OP HAVE to be wrong about Reeva breathing when he found her, regardless of whether the shots came first or second? If she only took two or three breaths, then surely she can't have been breathing by the time he got to her, even if it only took, say, 30 seconds. Second, and in some ways a similar question, isn't it also very likely her heart stopped beating before she was taken downstairs?

If the above points are correct (i.e. Reeva stopped breathing and her heart stopped beating while she was still in the bathroom), is there still a problem for the defence about how long Reeva was alive after the shots?

 

[Freya1977]

Man that does not look like someone that didn't know what he was firing....!

Yes, and as some witnesses stated the 4 shots went "bang..... (pause)... Bang bang bang".... Seeing that shot A (closest to toilet on the photo I posted above) was first, it could reasonably be argued that the pause was him repositioning as he heard the falling and movement of the target, or indeed saw her, as many believe. Gives me shivers looking at that photo.