CA - Elliot Rodger kills 6, injures 13 in Isla Vista, Near UC Santa Barbara, #2

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CARIIS said:
Its starting to come out he was seeing two providers - they probably have it wrong in all likelihood one was a therapist and the other a psychiatrist.(meds). He did not work. He was 22. Who does one think was paying to try and get their kid help --mom and dad


Often they refuse to take them or don’t take them correctly-(some of that is related to being sick and following directions etc) - you can’t force an adult.

How it usually goes is the psych meds take time to build up to a proper level ( weeks often). So they are complaint in the beginning, but as the levels rise the side effects are horrible.Becasue they are so sick they do not have the insight to know that the side effects are better than not trying to manage their illness so they stop taking them.

It takes a while for the level to drop so they stay somewhat level for a bit after they quit. Then they can go awhile reasonably stable while there neurotransmitters are slowly over time returning to their distressed levels. Then their behaviors and thinking goes back to whatever illness they are suffering with.

Depending on the illness (schizophrenia mostly) they get in trouble, usually LE, then they get hospitalized, overdosed for 2 two days, so they are in a coma, and discharged. . $$$$$$$$$$
,
Rinse repeat Rinse repeat Rinse repeat Rinse repeat Rinse repeat

ANd you what know is the really pathetic part of this. if insurance would pay for an appropriate length of stay at the onset, at the end of the day it would be cheaper for the greedy idiots at insurance because they would be able to remain stable for a longer peroid of time after discharge.

The side effects can lesson with time. If they were in the proper setting (hospital, day care whatever) there meds could be monotored they have support to get through the side effects and their insight, in all liklihood (casue they are more stable) is better so even after discharge then they will take them a bit longer, which means the insurance does not have to pay for a readmit

Becasue they are more stable they will come to therapy stabilizing longer.

Think about it . on an annual basis for insurance. one person.The way it is now we'll go 13 admissions - 2 days so we have 26 in-patient days.

If they would pay for them to be in a safe envirnment for two weeks the odds are they will not need to be readmitted as "soon" after discharge.

Its messed up

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The problem I see here is... no one seemed to know howto get ER the help he needed. I don't see mental health being as in dire situation as others. The issue I always seem to be drawn to is how family members don't know how ill someone really is until it's too late.


The help is there. The resources are there. Education is what is lacking. What I believe needed to happen was an ICE (in case of emergency) plan. Tell parents what to watch for. What behaviors could and likely indicate a severe medical emergency. This would require family and friends be a constant in the persons life. It would also require medical personnel to be on their toes and be ready to provide their medical documentation as quickly as possible.

Psychiatrists, therapists, and parents need to work together so people who can be a serious danger to society are afforded the help they need before it's too late. We can't continue to throw meds at people and hope for the best.

JMO & :twocents:
 
Just an observation; ER was no Stephen King, but I think he could have had some sort of success as a writer if he'd been willing to put the effort into it and accepted something less than "rich, famous writer of epic fantasy novel" or whatever. If the guy was willing to be anything less than "supreme", "superior" and "epic", there was every indication he could've been a successful human being.

But, of course, he DESERVED for the world to adore him and women to "give their sex" to him. He would accept nothing less.
 
I just saw a segment on CNN about the memorial service at UCSB yesterday. Over 20,000 people attended, mainly college students. Classes are due to resume today. These kids have really been traumatized and I hope the university is providing counseling for those that want it.
 
Disguiseduser0308 said:
Psychiatrists, therapists, and parents need to work together so people who can be a serious danger to society are afforded the help they need before it's too late. We can't continue to throw meds at people and hope for the best.

JMO & :twocents:
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Snipped :)

Is it just me? I'm feeling there may have been a failure(s) on the part of his therapists? Or maybe it was a lack of a "working together" as you've mentioned above that was sadly missing.

I don't have much experience with therapy, but isn't it a therapists responsibility to be mindful of a patient who may be showing signs of a capacity for violence?

I get he was highly manipulative, but it seems inconceivable to me that someone in therapy for so long would be able to successfully dupe his doctors for such an extended period of time. Did he switch doctors a lot? If so, wouldn't his records follow him?

Even though he was over 18, and technically his parents "loose" the right to be privy and/or involved with his medical/mental health treatment, but I would think that when you have a person who has been "treated" since being a young child, that the parents would remain involved with his treatment.

Maybe I'm naive, and have no clue. *shrugs*
 
I saw my therapist yesterday and talked to him about ER. He said that while the original diagnosis of Aspbergers seemed correct and remained the underlying diagnosis, he also said that ER diagnosis evolved into something more complex. He also said that ER might have never said anything in therapy that showed his true inclinations or thoughts, leaving the therapists blindsided by this.
ER seemed very good at manipulation and probably manipulated his therapists by figuring out all the right things to say.

Another thing that struck me in his manifesto, was how many adults who were friends of his parents really seemed to reach out to him. ER low self esteem and social awkwardness among other things must have really stood out. JMV
 
bettybaby00 said:
Snipped :)

Is it just me? I'm feeling there may have been a failure(s) on the part of his therapists? Or maybe it was a lack of a "working together" as you've mentioned above that was sadly missing.

I don't have much experience with therapy, but isn't it a therapists responsibility to be mindful of a patient who may be showing signs of a capacity for violence?

I get he was highly manipulative, but it seems inconceivable to me that someone in therapy for so long would be able to successfully dupe his doctors for such an extended period of time. Did he switch doctors a lot? If so, wouldn't his records follow him?

Even though he was over 18, and technically his parents "loose" the right to be privy and/or involved with his medical/mental health treatment, but I would think that when you have a person who has been "treated" since being a young child, that the parents would remain involved with his treatment.

Maybe I'm naive, and have no clue. *shrugs*
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No, you're not naive, I have no doubt you are correct from past experiences.

See, it takes effort from a person treating someone like ER. That means it takes more than simply billing for the session or providing a "free" service provided by funding from the Gov., United Way, and private donors.

It takes empathy and a genuine care for the client and time spent with others in the community like Parents, Police, Youth Justice Judges, etc. in order to provide either more help or more restrictive care.

As I said before, to have a kid with this obvious of a problem, to be treated/seen by this many family, friends and professionals and still be able to carry out this carnage should be criminal and fully investigated by authorities.
 
Zuri said:
I saw my therapist yesterday and talked to him about ER. He said that while the original diagnosis of Aspbergers seemed correct and remained the underlying diagnosis, he also said that ER diagnosis evolved into something more complex. He also said that ER might have never said anything in therapy that showed his true inclinations or thoughts, leaving the therapists blindsided by this.
ER seemed very good at manipulation and probably manipulated his therapists by figuring out all the right things to say.

Another thing that struck me in his manifesto, was how many adults who were friends of his parents really seemed to reach out to him. ER low self esteem and social awkwardness among other things must have really stood out. JMV
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BBM

This is why I find it so hard to believe he was capable of completely fooling his therapists.

One of the reasons I'm having such a hard time getting through the manifesto--I'm only at ERs 11 year old self--is that he writes with absolutely no affect. No emotion, nothing, even when he's describing some sort of emotion. ITS LIKE HE'S DEAD INSIDE!!!!!!

Someone on Dr. Drew (I know, I know :blushing:) made a comment that possibly his Aspergers masked his other possible disorders. Meaning that once that diagnosis was made, they didn't ever really look beyond that.

It would explain a lot IMO, b/c I doubt many Dr's, family, friends etc., are going to associate that with a propensity for violence. Possibly if he had been diagnosed with anti-social, narcissistic, boarderline personality maybe it would be different as these disorders do have the possibility of the person becoming violent. I'm not suggesting it's guaranteed, but I think perhaps he might have been viewed by his doctors and parents differently if was diagnosed with an additional issue.

Just my :twocents: and all that :)
 
I know a young man about the same age as ER who has Aspergers. He is much like ER with wealthy parents who give him everything although he does work at the father's business and attends different colleges getting unsuitable degrees for his diagnosis.

He does have a gf . His parents are in denial about his abilities.

The flat affect is there. The perseveration on different things that changes as he gets older.

Very critical of others. I do not see this kid as a killer though.

At any rate, adults are very kind to him.

To me it shows the loveliness of humanity. Kindness to those who are unpleasant. That is a good thing.
 
bettybaby00 said:
BBM

This is why I find it so hard to believe he was capable of completely fooling his therapists.

One of the reasons I'm having such a hard time getting through the manifesto--I'm only at ERs 11 year old self--is that he writes with absolutely no affect. No emotion, nothing, even when he's describing some sort of emotion. ITS LIKE HE'S DEAD INSIDE!!!!!!

Someone on Dr. Drew (I know, I know :blushing:) made a comment that possibly his Aspergers masked his other possible disorders. Meaning that once that diagnosis was made, they didn't ever really look beyond that.

It would explain a lot IMO, b/c I doubt many Dr's, family, friends etc., are going to associate that with a propensity for violence. Possibly if he had been diagnosed with anti-social, narcissistic, boarderline personality maybe it would be different as these disorders do have the possibility of the person becoming violent. I'm not suggesting it's guaranteed, but I think perhaps he might have been viewed by his doctors and parents differently if was diagnosed with an additional issue.

Just my :twocents: and all that :)
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I am not denying possible Aspergers but I do believe it's also possible he was a psychopath. Both disorders, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) cause someone to have no empathy or understanding of emotions. The difference, again I am just guessing out loud, is that a psychopath will learn to fake it in order to get what he wants with no cares about who he hurts, while someone with Asperger's will learn to fake it in order to fit in and become more of a part of society.

I guess I'm saying that it seems like with both conditions, empathy doesn't come naturally and must be learned or even just mimiced, but they do it for different reasons.

Am I making any sense? I could be way off base.
 
bettybaby00 said:
BBM
snip

One of the reasons I'm having such a hard time getting through the manifesto--I'm only at ERs 11 year old self--is that he writes with absolutely no affect. No emotion, nothing, even when he's describing some sort of emotion. ITS LIKE HE'S DEAD INSIDE!!!!!!

snip
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I concur with you on this notion. I am about two thirds through it, and find it to be all of the above and so tedious and so repetitive! It's the same thing over and over and while people have commented on the writing (spelling etc) I have found a notable limitation on his vocabulary or command of the English language. Same words throughout to describe the same things throughout. It occurred to me that it might be because the manifesto was written recently and over a relatively short period of time. And, its very much the same language as the videos. If I hear or read 'magnificent' one more time there is no telling what I might do.

Anyhow, one thing I noted, and so far I have only seen it once, is a reference to his diary and how he had written about something and then removed the pages so no one would see it. So, I would expect that there will be a diary or diaries found amongst his possessions. He said his mother had encouraged him to possibly be a writer, so even if there are no diaries found, there has to be evidence of other writing he has done and it might prove interesting.

One of his themes I find interesting is his constant return to vistas, to landscapes, to faraway views. Again, it can be seen in both the manifesto and the videos.

Just random thoughts. Maybe I will finally finish the manifesto today, maybe not.
 
Elley Mae said:
I happened upon that article as well. I am finding out more and more about Autism and I found that odd. In all that a have read and heard about Autism playing loud music does not seem to be something an Autistic person would do. I hope that made sense. Seemed strange to me.
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I think he was an undiagnosed Malignant Narcissist Psychopath not autistic.
I doubt any psychologist is going to tell parents that they think their son is a psychopath, that would be rare.
 
I don't think it's that rare actually. I can't find any articles to support that, but I've heard of it plenty, there's several blogs written by parents of autistic children that speak of it if you search specifically. My brother is on the spectrum and loves to be immersed in music, he's always played it very loud, I assume he's damaged his hearing by now.
Elley Mae said:
I happened upon that article as well. I am finding out more and more about Autism and I found that odd. In all that a have read and heard about Autism playing loud music does not seem to be something an Autistic person would do. I hope that made sense. Seemed strange to me.
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I watch all the Real Housewives franchises as it is mind numbing entertainment and of women behaving badly. I watched the YouTube video of the French version (I used to be fluent, but can still understand French) linked here. It is pretty typical of the franchise IMO. Even if you don't speak French, you can still observe women behaving badly. A lot of the drama and conversations are done for the camera, so I don't know if the show is a true reflection of who they really are. With that said, there seems to be a ring of truth.....

It was interesting to see PR and SR interact in the boutique and then on the red carpet. SR was in her glory and one would have thought she made the film, not her husband. ER could be seen with one expression on his face and stiff movements, not engaging with anyone. Sylvester Stallone's beautiful daughters were there right by the Rodgers and ER did not even glance their way. IMO
 
x_files said:
I think he was an undiagnosed Malignant Narcissist Psychopath not autistic.
I doubt any psychologist is going to tell parents that they think their son is a psychopath, that would be rare.
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That would be their job, though. As hard as it would be, a psychiatrist would have a duty to formally diagnose a patient (however, we know medicine is not exact) and assure proper treatment. Today and in the future.

I can't quite grasp how anyone who is schooled and trained to look for mental disease and/or defect could be so manipulated by someone like ER. They're trained to catch these things.

I just don't get it.
 
This whole story gives me shades of We Need To Talk about Kevin. Everyone really needed to talk about Elliot Rodgers.
 
jjenny said:
I don't know if that is actually correct. But anyhow, one would have to read it first, and it's quite long before he gets to his plan to start killing people.
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I was thinking this same thing...

But then thought they probably jumped to the ending when they saw it was in chronological order... Especially since it didn't take long IMO to see that this was not just a "story"... But was a virtual list of perceived inequities...

The title alone indicates a frightening "tale"...

JMO
 
Disguiseduser0308 said:
That would be their job, though. As hard as it would be, a psychiatrist would have a duty to formally diagnose a patient (however, we know medicine is not exact) and assure proper treatment. Today and in the future.

I can't quite grasp how anyone who is schooled and trained to look for mental disease and/or defect could be so manipulated by someone like ER. They're trained to catch these things.

I just don't get it.
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I wonder if, early on, psychiatrist/s accurately made a diagnosis and denial set-in and treatment wasn't pursued OR a second opinion was sought resulting in an accurate or inaccurate diagnosis/treatment?

* * *

In the case of the psychiatrist that ER reportedly saw 3 times (IIRC) and who prescribed the drug that ER refused to take ... what action could that Dr. have taken after he learned ER wasn't taking the drug? I believe ER was still a minor at that time. TIA

Did that Dr. have any responsibility to report this "very, very disturbed" young man who refused to take the drug the Dr thought was necessary OR follow through to make sure ER was receiving proper care/attention? TIA

ETA: What rises to the level where a psychiatrist MUST report a mentally ill/personality disordered individual? TIA
 
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