Motivation Report has been released

[Bill C]

Per Andrea Vogt, in the link upthread, it seems that Sollecito is appealing on the basis that the trials should have been heard separately, while Knox is appealing on the basis of contamination, and faulty interpretation, of evidence. Is it the intent to demonstrate that the analysis of the bra clasp evidence is faulty, which implies that all the evidence analsysis could be faulty, therefore Knox is not guilty? Given that contamination and corruption arguments have already been considered by the courts, can this point be re-opened? Sollecito has a new approach, so that may have some success.

I suppose we saw it coming: that Sollecito would try to separate himself from Knox. It has been suggested that this is too little too late.

Otto,
I read somewhere (sorry, I don't have the reference readily available) that there were 20-30 individual points on which the appeal was lodged. I guess we'll just have to wait for the English translation of the appeals report (if that ever becomes available). I also understand (the same uncited source,sorry) that the appeal is longer than Nencini's report.

 

[otto]

Otto,
I read somewhere (sorry, I don't have the reference readily available) that there were 20-30 individual points on which the appeal was lodged. I guess we'll just have to wait for the English translation of the appeals report (if that ever becomes available). I also understand (the same uncited source,sorry) that the appeal is longer than Nencini's report.

Andrea Vogt states that Sollecito's appeal is 300 pages in length, and Knox's is one third ... presumably about 100 pages.

 

[Amber29]

Andrea Vogt states that Sollecito's appeal is 300 pages in length, and Knox's is one third ... presumably about 100 pages.

It's very interesting to hear (although some us could see it coming)that RS is officially attempting to separate himself from AK. I wonder how all this will work out, being that he is her alibi. Is he going to revert to the story of her leaving that night? I wonder how this will reflect on her own appeal and why large differences in length? Curious all this...

 

[redheadedgal]

It's very interesting to hear (although some us could see it coming)that RS is officially attempting to separate himself from AK. I wonder how all this will work out, being that he is her alibi. Is he going to revert to the story of her leaving that night? I wonder how this will reflect on her own appeal and why large differences in length? Curious all this...

"officially attempting to separate himself from AK"? what? no. i think this is an incorrect and very misleading interpretation of what is going on.

imo, their appeals/defenses HAVE to be different considering different pieces of evidence have been used to (wrongly) implicate their involvement.

RS will (hopefully) focus on the bra clasp and possible contamination (as outlined here recently), among other points of appeal the two share.

For Amanda, said Della Vedova still, the fact remains that no traces were found of her in Meredith's room: “The ruling does not clarify this point, it can not be argued that the girl would be working at night to erase her imprints, searching with a lamp.” “A selective cancellation is impossible,” continued Della Vedova. Instead, “around Meredith were found 8 traces of Rudy Guede, within the space of 40 cm, included in the body of the victim,” said the lawyer.

more @ http://www.tmnews.it/web/sezioni/to...anda-knox-in-cassazione-20140617_130821.shtml

(translated by bing translator add-on)

 

[otto]

It's very interesting to hear (although some us could see it coming)that RS is officially attempting to separate himself from AK. I wonder how all this will work out, being that he is her alibi. Is he going to revert to the story of her leaving that night? I wonder how this will reflect on her own appeal and why large differences in length? Curious all this...

It is interesting. I don't think that he ever said that she was at his apartment through the night. My understanding is that he points to the fact that Knox, in her statement to police, at no time used "we" when describing Meredith's murder. I suspect that he argues that if Knox was involved, she left his apartment and then returned after the murder. He has to also argue that the DNA on the bra clasp was a result of transfer - potentially from Knox to the clasp?

 

[Amber29]

"officially attempting to separate himself from AK"? what? no. i think this is an incorrect and very misleading interpretation of what is going on.

imo, their appeals/defenses HAVE to be different considering different pieces of evidence have been used to (wrongly) implicate their involvement.

RS will (hopefully) focus on the bra clasp and possible contamination (as outlined here recently), among other points of appeal the two share.



more @ http://www.tmnews.it/web/sezioni/to...anda-knox-in-cassazione-20140617_130821.shtml

(translated by bing translator add-on)

I don't think it's misleading at all.
From the article linked above.

"one important distinction from past trials: there is no longer a joint defense. The two teams’ legal strategies appear firmly headed in separate directions. Sollecito’s appeal, which is much heftier, at approximately 300 pages long, argues that the two defendant’s positions should have been allowed to have been separated, giving examples of how some of the evidence related solely to her, and not to him. For example, his lawyers make the point that Knox, in her statements to police and the prosecutor, spoke consistently in the “singular” grammar form, not the plural, hence did not implicate the presence of others (i.e. him). "

 

[sherlockh]

I don't think it's misleading at all.
From the article linked above.

"one important distinction from past trials: there is no longer a joint defense. The two teams’ legal strategies appear firmly headed in separate directions. Sollecito’s appeal, which is much heftier, at approximately 300 pages long, argues that the two defendant’s positions should have been allowed to have been separated, giving examples of how some of the evidence related solely to her, and not to him. For example, his lawyers make the point that Knox, in her statements to police and the prosecutor, spoke consistently in the “singular” grammar form, not the plural, hence did not implicate the presence of others (i.e. him). "

An element of proof even. If that is not a separation then I don't know what is. Not that I think any of this will matter. It is much too late for that.

However there is also the argument that Knox and Sollecito’s positions should have been separated. As an example, on page 64, cites Giulia Bongiorno’s reading of Knox’s statements to police, noting that Knox repeatedly says “I.” The appeal argues that Knox’s declaration to police at 1:45 a.m. should be usable by the Sollecito defense as an element of proof that he was not present. Specifically, there is attention drawn to the subject-verb agreement and the fact that Knox repeatedly speaks in the singular form: “I see Patrick” and “I heard Meredith scream.”

http://thefreelancedesk.com/amanda-knox-trials-meredith-kercher-case/

 

[Coldpizza]

WS is undergoing a software upgrade. Within the next week -- possibly the next few days -- you will notice we have a new look. You shouldn't experience navigation problems, but if you do, look for the tab which reads "FORUMS" at the top left of the home page. Click that tab to get to the list of various forums and sub-forums

If you normally use a bookmark to get to your cases, the link should still work.

At first it will look different until it gets customized, but you should get used to the new look soon.

Should you get really lost don't hesitate to PM any of the mods.

 

[Justiceseeker35]

my problem with this whole thing is if RG's motivation was theft and rape/murder then why if AK was involved as some spur of the moment thing then would he leave her alive at all as a witness. I find it more likely that if she was there.. then the scenario was she left her boyfriends house to go home and pick something up like weed or clothes or something and was under the influence when she got there so was not acting totally rationally. Realized she interrupted something nefarious between Meredith and RG hence the hands over the ears and left before being noticed. Maybe she's guilty of knowing something was wrong at the time or failing to stop and report anything. I feel like the authorities tried really hard to cut the pieces and put them together so they'd fit a scenario they dreamed up. She maybe was just guilty of being self centered and self preservation filled and guilty of the fact that she just didn't like Meredith enough to help her with what she thought of was an aggressive suitor? I don't think 20 year old partying college girl is capable of being some criminal mastermind who knows how to clean up just her dna and leave only the correct dna behind. And I think the dna on the bra is a red herring.

 

[Linda7NJ]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...e-sollecito-asks-court-try-me-separately.html
AMANDA KNOX’S EX RAFFAELE SOLLECITO ASKS COURT: TRY ME SEPARATELY



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[Chris_Halkides]

"officially attempting to separate himself from AK"? what? no. i think this is an incorrect and very misleading interpretation of what is going on.

imo, their appeals/defenses HAVE to be different considering different pieces of evidence have been used to (wrongly) implicate their involvement.

Redheadedgal,

I agree with you. From the Preface of Raffaele's appeal: "In this petition, as we have done in the past, we will analyze both the position of Raffaele Sollecito as well as that of Amanda Knox, not only because the incorrect assessment of the evidence against [Knox] has, like in a system of communicating vessels, ended up affecting the position of [Sollecito], but also -- and this is the essential point -- because the "cascading" culpability of Sollecito has not been linked to specific findings in the case (serious, precise, and consistent); rather, it has been the result of an illogical and impersonal application of guilt by association." As I understand it, this has been something that Bongiorno has argued since 2008; therefore, the present strategy is nothing new.

 

[otto]

Redheadedgal,

I agree with you. From the Preface of Raffaele's appeal: "In this petition, as we have done in the past, we will analyze both the position of Raffaele Sollecito as well as that of Amanda Knox, not only because the incorrect assessment of the evidence against [Knox] has, like in a system of communicating vessels, ended up affecting the position of [Sollecito], but also -- and this is the essential point -- because the "cascading" culpability of Sollecito has not been linked to specific findings in the case (serious, precise, and consistent); rather, it has been the result of an illogical and impersonal application of guilt by association."

If Sollecito is claiming that he was found guilty because of "guilt by association", that does nothing whatsoever for Knox. It sounds like Sollecito is desperate now to separate himself from Knox, her statements to police, and her accusation against Lumumba.

 

[Linda7NJ]

If Sollecito is claiming that he was found guilty because of "guilt by association", that does nothing whatsoever for Knox. It sounds like Sollecito is desperate now to separate himself from Knox, her statements to police, and her accusation against Lumumba.

He has been her alibi.
Iirc didn't he start out claiming she wasn't at his place all night??? Then at some point later he changed his story?


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[Footwarrior]

He has been her alibi.
Iirc didn't he start out claiming she wasn't at his place all night??? Then at some point later he changed his story?


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No, Raffaele has always claimed that Amanda was at his place all night.

 

[Footwarrior]

I disagree.

"Amanda and I went into town at around 6 pm, but I don't remember what we did. We stayed there until around 8.30 pm or 9 pm. At 9 pm I went home alone and Amanda said that she was going to Le Chic because she wanted to meet some friends. We said goodbye. I went home, I rolled myself a spliff and made some dinner, but I do not remember what I ate. At about 11 pm per his usual custom my father called the house and Amanda had not yet returned. I spent the next two hours on the computer until Amanda arrived at 1 am[6][7]"



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Is this a result of the Perugia police telling the bald faced lie that they had clear video evidence of Amanda going to the cottage?

We might be able to tell if there was a recording, but apparently that is something that only honest policemen do. The dishonest ones use deception, threats and often physical abouse to get people to say what the want them to say.

 

[otto]

He has been her alibi.
Iirc didn't he start out claiming she wasn't at his place all night??? Then at some point later he changed his story?


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On the night that he was arrested, he said that he couldn't vouch for Knox. He said that he couldn't be sure that she didn't go out by herself on the night of the murder. According to B Nadeau, in the article you linked, the footage of the woman in the carpark was released by Sollecito's team and is intended to demonstrate that Knox returned to the cottage alone that night. I don't believe Sollecito ever backed away from the position that Knox could have gone out by herself that night. With all the discussion about DNA transfer, it's no stretch to believe that Knox transferred his DNA to Meredith's bra clasp.

I believe that they were both involved in the murder, but with Sollecito attempting to distance himself, he may have a chance of freedom by pinning it all on Knox. I don't think she has a chance of undoing her conviction.

 

[redheadedgal]

With all the discussion about DNA transfer, it's no stretch to believe that Knox transferred his DNA to Meredith's bra clasp.

for years, the claim has been that contamination is not possible... that there is no way that RS's dna was accidentally transferred to the clasp via a dirty floor, a dirty glove, a doorknob, a dirty machine etc:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Motivation Report has been released


but now that it is quite clearly possible that that very dna was transferred by someone else, knox, new questions arise:

*did amanda "selectively clean" her dna from the clasp before or after leaving RS's?
*did amanda leave RS's dna to frame him like she did w/ PL? if yes, should she now be charged with that crime?
*maybe she did place RG's dna in meredith's body afterall (as aa suggested)... wasn't there a cotton swab found in meredith's bedroom on the floor? was it tested for dna?

and most importantly,

*if knox is now to blame for leaving RS's dna on the clasp, why isn't it also possible that the dna was transferred by the other methods hypothesized and considered earlier (dirty floor, dirty glove, doorknob, dirty machine)?

 

[sherlockh]

On the night that he was arrested, he said that he couldn't vouch for Knox. He said that he couldn't be sure that she didn't go out by herself on the night of the murder. According to B Nadeau, in the article you linked, the footage of the woman in the carpark was released by Sollecito's team and is intended to demonstrate that Knox returned to the cottage alone that night. I don't believe Sollecito ever backed away from the position that Knox could have gone out by herself that night. With all the discussion about DNA transfer, it's no stretch to believe that Knox transferred his DNA to Meredith's bra clasp.

I believe that they were both involved in the murder, but with Sollecito attempting to distance himself, he may have a chance of freedom by pinning it all on Knox. I don't think she has a chance of undoing her conviction.

He signed a statement to the police where he claimed she was out from 9pm till 1am that night. Although secondary transfer is a whole lot more likely than the tertiary transfer theories we have seen, it still has a very low probability. Especially since the DNA sample on the bra clasp had his full profile and not Knox's. Not sure if it was ever definitely established that his DNA came from saliva, but this chart says so:
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Batch-5.jpg
His footprints in the victims blood doesn't really help him either. Let also not forget that Knox did not say he was not there. She merely said she was not sure. She even speculated at one point that he was the killer. Either way, the evidence phase is over. This is all rather desperate and much too late. JMO.

 

[MichaelSmith]

Distancing/Separation? Lets take a look at what his appeal doc says not what agenda bloggers like Vogt and hacks like Barbie say.

They confirm her alibi. They were certainly together at Raffaele's place when Guede said Meredith screamed at 9.20pm-9.30pm.

2 Omessa valutazione della rilevanza delle comunicazioni telefoniche della vittima nella determinazione dell’orario-morte (consulenza Paoloni-Pellero)
La sentenza di secondo grado della Corte d’Assise d’Appello di Perugia aveva concluso, in modo del tutto razionale, che l’ora effettiva della morte dovesse collocarsi molto prima rispetto a quella indicata nella decisione di primo grado, quindi, non più tardi delle 22:13, orario coincidente con l’ultima registrazione del traffico sul cellulare della vittima (connessione GPRS di 9 secondi).
D’altra parte, lo stesso Rudy Guede, nella chat telefonica del 19 novembre 2007 con l’amico Benedetti (all. 28) aveva affermato di essere stato in via della Pergola tra le ore 21:00 e le 21:30, il che anticipava di molto l’orario della morte di Meredith, senza contare che in quell’orario gli imputati si trovavano certamente a casa di Raffaele Sollecito (con conseguente alibi).
In particolare, secondo la sentenza di appello, era il telefono di Meredith la chiave per interpretare esattamente gli eventi.
Ed invero, la Corte d’Assise d’Appello di Perugia aveva osservato che mentre la chiamata senza risposta effettuata verso casa (in Inghilterra) delle 20:56 era stata certamente eseguita da Meredith, i successivi tentativi di chiamata al numero 901 (segreteria telefonica) delle 21:58, alla banca Abbey (il primo indirizzo presente in rubrica) e la connessione internet delle 22:13 erano certamente sospetti, dato che la vittima non aveva alcuna apparente ragione di compierli.
La sentenza di annullamento ad opera della Cassazione (pag. 63) aveva, invece, ritenuto di individuare un diverso orario (prossimo a quello indicato nel primo grado, 23/23:30) sulla base di una “media” operata in base ai dati tanatologici, che indicavano nel range dalle ore 18:50 alle ore 4:50 del 2 novembre l’ora del decesso.
Di fronte alle incertezze derivanti dalla determinazione di un orario morte sulla sola base dei soli dati medico legali, la difesa aveva chiesto di concentrare l’attenzione sui telefoni cellulari della vittima (cfr. note di udienza del 30 settembre 2013, pagg. 16-20), dal momento che essi costituivano la “scatola nera” dell’omicidio.

Sollecito Appeal
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RICORSO_SOLLECITO_9.6.2014.pdf

 

[otto]

He signed a statement to the police where he claimed she was out from 9pm till 1am that night. Although secondary transfer is a whole lot more likely than the tertiary transfer theories we have seen, it still has a very low probability. Especially since the DNA sample on the bra clasp had his full profile and not Knox's. Not sure if it was ever definitely established that his DNA came from saliva, but this chart says so:
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Batch-5.jpg
His footprints in the victims blood doesn't really help him either. Let also not forget that Knox did not say he was not there. She merely said she was not sure. She even speculated at one point that he was the killer. Either way, the evidence phase is over. This is all rather desperate and much too late. JMO.

I don't buy the DNA secondary and tertiary transfer theories. There is evidence of culpability with both Knox and Sollecito.

It is much too late. Sollecito's only real time for this argument was at the beginning of the investigation. After the dream that he would be rescued from the clutches of the Italian prison through marriage with an American fan was shattered, he realized his first mistake.