OH OH/PA - Kingsbury Run Murders, Cleveland OH/New Castle PA, 1930's

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I think unfortunately that this is one of those cases where every unsolved similar murder gets lumped into it.

I don't even believe all the murders ascribed in Cleveland were the same killer.

I think the men with missing heads and genitalia were done by the same killer. The women, probably not.

This case kind of reminds me of both Wayne Williams in Atlanta and the Boston Strangler. Every murder that happened got attached to them, even though it seems obvious that they weren't done by the same killer.
 
I agree that these murders I just mentioned are a substantial stretch but I also think that the murders listed on the Torso Killer's tally are by the same hand.

All these latter murders, however, do have at least one of, at least, a sometime Torso Killer trait. That is:

Elizabeth Short-bisected torso
Evelyn Winters-left near railway
Lydia Thompson-attempted decapitation
Suzanne Degnan-decapitated/disarticulated
Judith Andersen-decapitated/left in water
Oswego woman-decapitated/left in water
Haverstraw man-decapitated/left near railway
Albany man-disarticulated/left in water
 
I agree that they have some of the same traits, but I believe that most murders have similar traits.

Being left in water is just a great way to try and get rid of a body. Decapitation - great way to try and hide identity before DNA (John Dick) or to move a body (Winnie Ruth Judd and Lorraine Clark).

And railroads - until the mid 80's there were 3 train tracks that still crossed the roads within a mile of my house in Omaha - so back in the 20 - 50's when train travel was more active - I would think being found by or in proximity to a railroad track wouldn't be so unusual.

I think you can find as many things that are dissimilar in the crimes.

Winters/Short were picked up at hotel or bar - Winters was beaten to death - I think a more similar crime to Short would be Jeanne French.

Degnan and Thompson were taken from home

Andersen - picked up walking home. -

Ages range from 6 to mid 40's.

Except that Degan and Andersen's bodies were found, their cases could be similar to Evelyn Hartley, Beverly Potts and Georgia Jean Weckler who disappeared out of a house and off the streets.
 
No argument with what you say DF - like I say; a stretch. As I recall, all the cases are mentioned in the book Torso with the exception of Andersen. She has only been recently brought up in connection in the case.
 
I know in the Andersen case the LP believed the murderer was Barry Cook - who was acquitted of murdering Margaret Gallagher in what was called the spyglass murder. They were never able to get enough evidence to do a search of his house, legally where he lived with his parents.

Although he flunked a lie detector test and actually confessed to the Gallagher murder to an undercover cop in jail he was acquitted. But did spend 14 years in jail for other assaults.

My only issue is sometimes you'll be reading a thread and it sounds like one person is killing everyone in the US.
 
I don't know how much help it would be, but when I'm in the New Castle area next month I could stop at their library and get some prints of newspaper articles from back then on the topic. If I recall, a lot of it isn't digital. Scan and upload. I also know some people in their 90's who might remember it.
 
STANDREID said:
I agree that these murders I just mentioned are a substantial stretch but I also think that the murders listed on the Torso Killer's tally are by the same hand.

All these latter murders, however, do have at least one of, at least, a sometime Torso Killer trait. That is:

Elizabeth Short-bisected torso
Evelyn Winters-left near railway
Lydia Thompson-attempted decapitation
Suzanne Degnan-decapitated/disarticulated
Judith Andersen-decapitated/left in water
Oswego woman-decapitated/left in water
Haverstraw man-decapitated/left near railway
Albany man-disarticulated/left in water
Click to expand...
I agree with the Torso Killers canonical victims being by the same hand.....the idea that two seperate killers were running around Cleveland at that point in History dismembering victims is a stretch.
It seems to be the Vogue these days to propose that 'there was no Ripper'...all the crimes are unconnected when it comes to some of these long standing notorious unsolveds.
I dont buy it.
Im all for thinking outside the box but outside isnt always the answer either.
 
scriptgirl said:
How is the Jeanne French case similar to the Dahlia's?
Click to expand...
This observation probably belongs in the Dahlia thread but even though Ive never been convinced Steve Hodell's father was the Dahlia killer(Black Dahlia Avenger) I think the samples of his dad's printing that he put in that book look EXACTLY like the writing on Jeanne French.
 
 
At any rate, we are in the timeframe of the 80th anniversary of the murder of Victim 0, aka the First Lady of the Lake. It was not recognized as a Torso murder in the beginning but I think most students of the case now consider her the commencement of the murder series. She was never identified.
 
PFF said:
Congressman Martin Sweeney was related by marraige to Sherriff O'Donnell {Sweeney's daugther married O'Donnell son} in whose custody Frank Dolezal died under suspicious cercumstances
Click to expand...

It is generally assumed that the man Ness called Gaylord Sondheim was actually Dr. Francis Sweeney but why give a Jewish name to a Catholic doctor?

I am now almost certain that the three 1940 Youngstown/McKees Rocks train victims were killed by the Torso Slayer so that would make the murderers tally (including Victim 0) at least 16.
 
STANDREID said:
I am now almost certain that the three 1940 Youngstown/McKees Rocks train victims were killed by the Torso Slayer so that would make the murderers tally (including Victim 0) at least 16.
Click to expand...

They were with little doubt killed in Youngstown during December of 1939. I think that pretty much eliminates Sweeney and it most definitely eliminates Dolezal.
 
I have never seen a photo of Rose Wallace but there is a sketch of her that looks like it was copied from a photograph. Can't say for sure that it was.

Her son would be in his 90s now, I think. I wonder if he still might be living.
 
C&O Railroad 1930's
c&omap.jpg

http://www.r2parks.net/c&o.html

The answer is here and a mystery unfolds... Within this map lies an unmistakable story unknown to the viewer unless of course they heard the story. Sometimes barreling locomotives mimic the sound of a heartbeat deep within the earth, the steam whistle, like human screams. Time passes and flat, fertile soil on mountain sides hide secrets very few will ever know.

During The Great Depression, good men may have turned into monsters through no fault of their own. Those monster's may have mastered their survival skills. "Success breed success" and sometimes other monsters for generations to come. Sometimes we need to look back, far back to the very beginning and discover what could have possibly made a man a monster.

It started with a Lumberjack but I prefer to call him a Lumber Man.
CLUE: The boss knew that big, strong men were needed to handle the wood in the preservation process and was elated as XXXXXX told him about CCA, chromated copper arsenate and the experience he had while working near a farm where the children who went barefoot experienced reddened, thickened skin on the soles of the feet.
 
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