Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[katydid23]

This whole outcome is very depressing so far. I can only hope for one thing and it is a long shot. But I wish and pray that Masipa hears the public backlash and reassesses. It is not too late. She can give him the max on both counts. That would be fine for me. :jail:

I have a sneaking suspicion that she will go with suspended sentence however. :no:

 

[turaj]

Here's link to recent CITY PRESS, S.A. article:
http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscar-pistorius-appeal-civil-claim-cards/

Some interesting points that are mentioned:

* NPA highly likely to file leave to appeal. "Appetite for appeal went all the way to the top", referring to National Director Of Public Prosecutors Nxasana. Barry Roux left brief meeting with Gerrie Nel on Friday absolutely convinced Nel would appeal the judgement (Roux comment provided by source close to Pistorius family).

* Reeva's parents set to continue their pursue of civil claim against Oscar. Their lawyer, Dup de Bruyn confirmed they would continue with it after case finalized.

* Police officers keeping close eye on Judge Masipa. The S.A. tactical response team "amaBerete", are stationed outside her house. They check on her every hour & escort her wherever she goes. All due to public's heavy criticism and growing furor around the acquittal of Pistorius's murder charge.

Can anyone explain how the Steenkamps can go after what we here in US call civil suit after they already dealt with him in the beginning and make some sort of settlement which one can only assume is financial. Apparently she helped support her parents. I don't quite get that.

 

[Paul Connelly]

Here's link to recent CITY PRESS, S.A. article:
http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscar-pistorius-appeal-civil-claim-cards/

Some interesting points that are mentioned:

* NPA highly likely to file leave to appeal. "Appetite for appeal went all the way to the top", referring to National Director Of Public Prosecutors Nxasana. Barry Roux left brief meeting with Gerrie Nel on Friday absolutely convinced Nel would appeal the judgement (Roux comment provided by source close to Pistorius family).

* Reeva's parents set to continue their pursue of civil claim against Oscar. Their lawyer, Dup de Bruyn confirmed they would continue with it after case finalized.

* Police officers keeping close eye on Judge Masipa. The S.A. tactical response team "amaBerete", are stationed outside her house. They check on her every hour & escort her wherever she goes. All due to public's heavy criticism and growing furor around the acquittal of Pistorius's murder charge.

Let's hope for her sake that arm of the judiciary are not as easily distracted, duped and prone to error, or seemingly indifferent to the life of a woman as her ladyship seems to be.

 

[aa9511]

I totally believe Sam Taylor's story too, an obvious control freak narcissist she is describing once they feel they have reeled you in. Those recognisable traits, if you ever had the misfortune to hook up with one , so much so that you would never again give one the time of day as your life will be hell. You could compare notes and find that they all sing from the same hymn sheet , stinginess being the least of their nasty list of qualities. Poor Reeva the full truth probably dawned on her that night and she was trying to get out for good. IMO.

ITA and I believe her and her mom. Evertything they saw lines up with what we have seen from Oscar.

 

[Paul Connelly]

I think all the skills he developed over the years in terms of dealing with the media etc. carried right over into the courtroom and he applied them in getting support from this judge. I think the same skillset in another courtroom...another judge would probably have failed.

They would have researched the presiding judge and assessors and pitched their defence accordingly. Roux read her perfectly and coached Oscar with equal perfection. I have no doubt he'd have tried with another bench albeit with less success.

 

[Cherwell]

OP will definitely try to make a killing from all this publicity to facilitate his nightclub, yachting, expensive cars, young blondes, trips to Italy, 'lifestyle'.

The ****'s already made a killing.

 

[lithgow1]

An article with Reeva Steenkamp's brother's perspective. Hopefully headlines like this will continuen to dominate coverage. It's my impression that at some point the judge is required to make available her full ruling wherein I assume she has to cover her reasoning in more detail than the glossed over 'everyone but OP was wrong or lying' that the world got last week. Will be interesting to see how she dismisses the autopsy and ballistics evidence to reach her conclusion that RS had no time to scream.

The more I think about it the less impressed I am with Judge Masipa so I hope she is feeling pressured from both the public outcry and the criticisms from her fellow legal professionals. She may well be a brave woman who has achieved much but she still deserves criticism and a lot of it when it comes to her actions in this case IMO.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...amps-british-brother-adam-claims-9731831.html

 

[turaj]

Exactly, the point is Reeva is dead subsequent to her written statement that Oscar scares her sometimes. With all the other reckless gun evidence, Masipa could have made the inference that he killed her. She neglected to put the pieces of that circumstantial puzzle together as she should have. If Oscar had said that he was so mad at Reeva that he could kill her, Masipa would have chalked that up to "ups and downs" in a relationship.

You know if Judge Masipa was presiding over the Jodi Arias case here in US where the essence of the case were texts...one after another and again the only way you could make a judgement on what was in the mind of Travis Alexander Jodi might be on the streets today. His words echoed in the courtroom and I'm sure that neither the judge nor the jury just threw them out because "relationships are dynamic". The two things that will stick in my sort of non legal mind are (1) crying after the crime was a deal breaker and (2) "relationships are dynamic" so whatever happens...happens!! Remarkable.

I have to wonder how soon the courts in SA will want cameras in the room? Don't know what the rules are. I'm sure the SA economy got a real boost from this trial...think of all the hotel rooms/meals etc. over this crazy long trial that is still going on. No doubt Uncle Arnold or Carl have interests in the hotel and tourism business in SA.

 

[aa9511]

One more thing - I think Oscar would have been caught in MANY MORE LIES on the stand had it not been for the constant BREAKS he was given by the Judge. Now, I know "defendant's rights" and all that, but the TRUTH is that we all saw that whenever Nels was catching him in something, Oscar would start his crying/vomiting act, and Judge would BREAK for him.

What was the reason for this? I know it's because Oscar needed time to re-group. He was being caught in a corner, and at that moment he would resort to his victim-act, because this is the act that he would resort to throughout his life when caught doing something wrong. And it worked every time.

His act would cause the break, the break would give him a chance to re-group and also think of answers.

It's just really sad to think that this kind of act could fool a Judge, an entire courtroom, and essentially, the justice system.

 

[geevee]

On a lighter note, Roux must be regretting why in his HOA did he say that the case should have been of culpable homicide and also admitted oscar's guilt in Tasha's. Had it not been for this carelessness of his, Oscar would have been acquitted completely!

This is what I've been thinking since the verdicts, she only convicted him of what Roux agreed to (possibly by proxy of 'the family'). I'm also wondering if she took the easier way out and constructed the verdicts in such a way that there's a good chance of being overturned - capitulating to the Pistorius family pressure and not being the one to have to actually send the dear boy into prison once they're appealed? Otherwise I cannot make reaonable sense of her contradictions - the extension cord, fans and such 'pales in comparison' - to what, exactly? His several shifting versions?

 

[turaj]

One more thing - I think Oscar would have been caught in MANY MORE LIES on the stand had it not been for the constant BREAKS he was given by the Judge. Now, I know "defendant's rights" and all that, but the TRUTH is that we all saw that whenever Nels was catching him in something, Oscar would start his crying/vomiting act, and Judge would BREAK for him.

What was the reason for this? I know it's because Oscar needed time to re-group. He was being caught in a corner, and at that moment he would resort to his victim-act, because this is the act that he would resort to throughout his life when caught doing something wrong. And it worked every time.

His act would cause the break, the break would give him a chance to re-group and also think of answers.

It's just really sad to think that this kind of act could fool a Judge, an entire courtroom, and essentially, the justice system.

Everytime that happened (and it was often) I was so mad at the judge as it would then completely disrupt the prosecution line of questioning and forced Nel to stop. And yes he went back and probably had time to get coached again from all those coaching. I can understand once maybe but then judge should have told him to get it together and whatever it takes make it happen or don't testify.

 

[Cherwell]

Indeed.

And the most ridiculous judgement in the lesser charges relating to the possession of the .38 bullets - "the state has not proved that OP meant to possess the ammunition" (despite him having a gun on order which required those bullets) was a charge which could carry a significant custodial sentence (up to 15 years).

I dare say finding OP guilty on that count together with CH would have made it nigh on impossible to avoid a custodial sentence overall, so the only thing to do was to acquit him. Disgraceful.

The final proof will come at sentencing - if OP escapes with no custodial sentence it would seem to show an entirely corrupt process in my view, which would be hugely disappointing.

Since the Pistorius clan appears to 'own' the entire SA establishment (if OP's bragging and the general demeanour of the clan is anything to go by), what real hope is there for justice?

Shocking.

I wonder if they actually care about what their machinations have done to further degrade the image of SA. Probably not - insight doesn't seem to be one of their strong suits.

If I am wrong and he does get a decent custodial sentence, I will be delighted to see at least a semblance of justice, but that comment about waiting until the 13th before continuing with work on the book sounded so very confident that nothing would be getting in the way of future plans that I am not hopeful.

It's very depressing. I wonder what kind of pressure was brought to bear on those involved. It's not always as simple as bribery, is it?
Words are inadequate to describe how disgusted I am by these people.

 

[Z&BsMommy]

An article with Reeva Steenkamp's brother's perspective. Hopefully headlines like this will continuen to dominate coverage. It's my impression that at some point the judge is required to make available her full ruling wherein I assume she has to cover her reasoning in more detail than the glossed over 'everyone but OP was wrong or lying' that the world got last week. Will be interesting to see how she dismisses the autopsy and ballistics evidence to reach her conclusion that RS had no time to scream.

The more I think about it the less impressed I am with Judge Masipa so I hope she is feeling pressured from both the public outcry and the criticisms from her fellow legal professionals. She may well be a brave woman who has achieved much but she still deserves criticism and a lot of it when it comes to her actions in this case IMO.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...amps-british-brother-adam-claims-9731831.html

Her brother talking about spreading Reevas ashes, is heart wrenching.. Sadly, she became second and was almost overlooked throughout the "trial"...

 

[turaj]

Her brother talking about spreading Reevas ashes, is heart wrenching.. Sadly, she became second and was almost overlooked throughout the "trial"...

Is it considered not professional for a judge in reading this verdict to call Reeva Steenkamp by name? I find calling her the "deceased" revolting. I realize that is what she is but she does have a name...she was a person. Gerry Nel always used her name. I guess that is a tactic the defense uses to make it seem less personal but at the point of verdict OP was accused of murdering Reeva Steenkamp.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

This morning I noticed a lot of debris and dog hair on our floor (I have 3 jack russell terriers) so I decided to vaccuum. I chose to use our Dyson because it is the most efficient in performing the task. As I vaccuumed, I noticed a strange looking leaf, and as I vacuumed over it, I realized it was not a leaf but a dog turd. I had mistaken a leaf for a turd!!! My husband reckons that I am still responsible for cleaning the soiled vaccuum machine, since I was the one who made the error...

 

[jilly]

That was my thought exactly - she only found him guilty on the one charge where she almost had no choice but to do so but even then didn't seem to think his blatant lying re the incident had any further implications. The more this sinks in the more things I find to puzzle over - her almost complete rejection of all State evdidence, both expert and layperson, and her almost complete acceptance of Pistorius's version desite acknowledging its many flaws. Plus it is still mind boggling that she could take his tears and remorse after the event as an indication of his thoughts and intentions before the shooting. I guess she has never done or said anything she has immediately regretted and wished could be taken back. I don't want to jump on any bribery bandwagon so all I can think of is she felt sorry for Pistorius and has thus tied herself into legal knots to find him ways out - or she is not nearly as smart as I thought she was. The fact that there was so much evidence she didn't even address in her findings is worriesome in the extreme and as someone else pointed out, she spent more time dissecting the implications of Darren Fresco's mendacity than she did on OP's.

I'm wrestling with the idea that there's incompetence here or a hidden agenda.

 

[patCee]

Much has been made of JM's background, demonstrations for women's rights and the passion, when young, that goes with all of that. However once someone attains prominence in society, e.g. becomes a judge, they have left all that behind and joined the 'establishment' (If you can't beat 'em, join 'em). To not do so is incompatible with such a position in society, in my opinion, and too difficult to reconcile. So although a judge might maintain a sense of 'right' and of fairness, I believe over identifying with a defendant is not often the case. The law requires cognitive thinkers, where the head dominates over the heart. I felt all through the trial that JM maintained a passive position and just let the whole thing roll on and on. Neither do I believe that she was chosen to preside over the trial as just the next person on the allocation list, as promoted at the beginning. There must be, in my opinion, other reasons for the shambles it has become and I hope the public outcry about the verdict will help those reasons become clearer.
At the very least I hope that OP will not get away with murder and will pay the appropriate price.

 

[jilly]

I know a few of us Websleuthers were wondering what Gerrie Nel was doing when the verdict was being delivered. He appeared to be industriusly taking notes with his head down for most of the time. Maybe the following extract gives us a clue.

"From the moment on Thursday when it became clear Masipa was going to find him not guilty of murder, Gerrie [Nel] started talking to the team about a possible appeal. Mark my words, he is studying case law as we speak," said a senior member of the prosecuting team.

Nel and everyone involved in the prosecution, including the team of detectives and experts, were "completely gutted" at the judge's verdict, the Sunday Times was told.

"We have all lost cases ... we listened to Masipa, with the greatest of respect, and the finding just didn't make sense.

"We will do what we always do. Calm down, sit around a table and look at the facts and then fight back," said the senior member of the prosecuting team.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/special/...dge-under-fire-while-state-is-urged-to-appeal

THANK YOU ! I needed this! Can they file an appeal before October 13th?

 

[Lyra500]

It's very depressing. I wonder what kind of pressure was brought to bear on those involved. It's not always as simple as bribery, is it?
Words are inadequate to describe how disgusted I am by these people.

I do find it very hard to believe that JM was knowingly involved in anything underhand - she just seems too proper, but something just isn't right. Her arguments in some cases simply made no sense (almost perverse in some cases) and the decision to summarily throw out all of the prosecution evidence just feels incredibly wrong.

So, I don't know what has gone on, but JM's behaviour coupled with the Pistorius clan confidence (almost triumphalism) before the sentence has even been decided upon leave me entirely uneasy.

 

[cottonweaver]

A completely different take on it all from BBC's Andrew Harding who's covered case/trial since Reeva's killing:

..... "what strikes me more today is what this trial does not reveal about modern South Africa.
For a start, it clearly wasn't proof that a rich and famous man can buy his way out of trouble here. Pistorius had an expensive legal team, but their experts struck me as no more competent than the state's. And if he was exhaustively coached to say the right things in the witness box under cross-examination, then he clearly wasn't much of a student. It's a debatable point, but overall I'd say his celebrity has probably counted against him.
Nor was the trial proof that South Africa's legal system is in particularly good, or bad, shape. ....It merely proves what most already knew - that this country has some brilliant legal minds, some relatively weak interpreters, and some very professional and some very incompetent police.The trial simply reminded us all how much things have changed since the arrival of democracy in 1994....

We'll be in a better position to put it all in context after Judge Masipa has passed sentence on Oscar Pistorius. For now, the prospect of forgiveness and redemption seems a long way off"

His reasoning about the case gets a bit muddled in a few instances but it's always good to hear a diff p.o.v. so it's worth a read especially he thinks JM did well even though I personally don't agree.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-29193657