VA - Hannah Elizabeth Graham, 18, Charlottesville, 13 Sept 2014 - #9

[Lava]

I just keep wondering that do any of you all think there's a possibility that perhaps no one did anything to Hannah, but maybe something happened to her when she got lost? I mean, for example, the case of the one mentally ill young woman who disappeared, and then later they found her body in a lake, and she had drowned because she had wandered off by herself. Apparently she sometimes imagined things, like things were chasing her or something. And in the dark, she fell into a lake.

I'm just saying this because of the text Hannah sent that she was lost, and on top of that if she was inebrieated to where she didn't know her surroundings. Or even it could be the case that someone earlier had put some kind of date-rape drug or something in her drink, to where she was in a very vulnerable state. Is it possible she could have fell somewhere, or fallen into a lake, or something of that sort?

It is absolutely possible. It was my first assumption when I first heard about the case. If the river was closer I'd be even more inclined to think so...but then again she did walk a lot.

 

[gnomony]

Preston Ave is a divided avenue where the Shell camera is. There is a sidewalk on the Shell station side, but (if I read the Google images correctly) not on the other side. There are young trees on the green belt in the center of the avenue. The camera has her running by, headed toward downtown, apparently on the sidewalk. If she was jogging against traffic on an earlier trip to get to McGrady's, she would have been on the other side, out of camera range (even though she probably "should have" been using the sidewalk). Bottom line: we have no evidence she went up Preston, but no evidence she didn't, either (as far as I know).

 

[katinva]

I cant keep up with this case like I do with others in the past. The View had a clip on Hannah today. I love the attention this case is getting!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Please reference your "statistics" about a"better chance" of being shot by mistake by a lawfully armed conceal-n-carry holder or retract your statement please. This is NOT the time or place for your anti-gun, anti-Fox News agenda. I find it very distasteful.

Thank you. I will not go off topic but don't wait for these so-called statistics. They don't exist because what was said is absolutely untrue with no foundation or basis to support the post.

IMO

 

[Emaa]

Police have arrest warrants, a girl is missing. Can we, for the love of God, please stop "analyzing" the videos?

The BG is on the run; if that doesn't scream suspicion, that I don't know what does. Let's pool our analysis on figuring out where this young girl is, if there's any new video, and not whether or not you think the WG or the BG are "creepy."

Longo warned against "tunnel vision".

 

[Jmm124567]

His statement that he followed her because he thought she was in physical distress makes no sense to me, considering he was in front of her to begin with; he had to have seen her prior to that. I think he stepped into the doorway waiting for her to pass.

It is possible that the group of guys behind her were yelling and flirting at her and he heard and turned his head around for a second. She did not seem super drunk in all the videos we have seen.

 

[Elley Mae]

Wow...This seems like a lot of foot traffic for an 18 year old college girl to cover alone on a Friday night! Maybe I am wrong, but Hannah does not appear to be a "party girl" type of person that frequents bars alone, "lives for the week-end", gets drunk and high or engages in consensual risky behavior frequently. Not the kind of person I would see walking ALONE to bars. She appears to be social with a lot of friends and involvement in college activities, a softball player, band member, and a smart student who takes her grades and classes seriously. Her facebook/tweets don't display many pictures or comments about drinking and partying. So...why in the heck would she be running, stumbling, or walking around town late at night BY HERSELF???????

I have daughters, nieces (and even myself back in the day) who attended big colleges in party towns. We all have had different experiences with partying and engaging in risky behavior and establishing our "priorities" on a Friday night. Not a single one of us would have walked or been alone for that length of time, especially intoxicated, UNLESS we were meeting someone in particular, a guy we were interested in or someone we knew really well. Most college students (girls in particular) do not get drunk or walk around drunk by themselves, because drinking is a social thing! There is usually one girl in the group that feels they are the "caretaker" of everyone that is drunk and will attempt to make sure everyone gets home safely, even if they themselves are drunk! Look at the videos. There is NO OTHER FEMALE walking alone! Who was Hannah going to meet or who was she looking for? Was it JM? Was it someone she was secretly seeing or had a crush on? In my opinion, she had a purpose of going there alone, and her gait and brisk movements show it (as opposed to being lost).

Someone else here said that she was walking/running/jogging like she was looking for someone, or meeting someone. Maybe she thought they would be at one of the parties she was at and she went down town looking for them. Like she had a purpose for going there. jmo idk

 

[jamicat]

JM apparently arrived with family. So after his car was seized, his apartment searched, and having spoken to a police officer at that time, he must have gone to family who likely told him not to talk to the police without an attorney since the situation looked grave. So he asked for an attorney. Attorney told him to take a hike and not to talk to the police. Simple as that. He did as the attorney said to do. Probably told him to tell family to keep quiet too.

This is a case where I do thiink the police have good reason to suspect their best POI. I followed the Lauren Spierer case carefully from the get go, and I was not convinced and still am not, that the POIs that LE focused on and this forum focused on knew what happened to her and were telling the truth about the general events of the evening. In this case with Hannah, I do believe that JM knows how Hannah left that area and likely took her somewhere, and it does not look good for him, whether he did something horrible or not. It's just that LE don't have enough evidence now to charge him with anything Heck, they can't even prove that Hannah was physically harmed, much less killed. She may well have gotten into a vehicle willligly, gone off with some one willingly and is in another state on her honey moon. I don't believe it, but yes, ti's possible. It's also possible she's in a ditch, river, lake somewhere, or in some basement or shed. A lot of things possible.

But I see nothing in it for JM to speak up. Clearly they have no videos clearing him, and so at best he has no alibi and LE has not proof he was with Hannah after leaving Tempo. At worst, he harmed her and is facing Murder 1, but LE has no proof to do anything about it. The best thing for him is to keep quiet. If LE comes up empty in the forensics from the car and apartment, they truly have nothing other than JM had a drink with her and she went on her separate way and he went his without being able to prove otherwise. If some other people step up with sightings, if more video footage is found with Hannah or JM in it, if some forensic evidence comes up, then there might be reason enough to charge JM. A body is not necessary for a murder charge, but there has to be other evidence than the person just disappeared. People do disappear and show up later. I don't think so in this case, but possible. Our law is set up so that you need more than possible to charge a guy successfully and we tend to fire DAs that lose cases like this one, high profile, involving AA male here.

 

[JB225]

bbm.. my question is, How drunk can one be to continue to text coherently to friends through out this whole "episode"? Does this really bring into question her actions that night? I mean we see her walking and running all over the place, interacting with people etc. I remember back in the day getting blasted and not being able to function in any manner close to what HG shows on tape.

I'm posting for the first time!
I have to say, though, that when I was in college, even when blackout drunk, I did not just "pass out" (unfortunately), but I became even more hyper and could function pretty normally - even text. No drugs involved. I think people just react differently to alcohol. Some say she must be on something else besides just alcohol the way she's marching around with so much energy. I am not kidding when I say just drinking liquor did this to me, too. I wasn't a beer drinker - it put me to sleep. But I loved liquor in college, mainly, because I became like the energizer bunny and ready to go all night.

BTW - I do not think she was lost. I think she was looking for someone. I think maybe a guy interest who she heard would be out somewhere. Maybe she just caught wind he would be "out" and that's why she was looking all over town. Who knows, but I do not think she was lost.

 

[Charlie Chan]

I hv a question in regards to the video where she walks up to the enclosed courtyard/rest/bar area...sorry whatever it is. There is a group of four men to the right of the camera who are leaving. If there is a gate right there and they walk out; they are the four who would have seen her just up ahead stumbling. Who are these four men? Have they come fwd yet? The threads hv been moving so fast...and then discussions about IUPG, which is reserved for the court room not boards or the public. Things have changed in our society and we no longer have "villages" and most do not care about trials or the justice system. It is way behind in technology as well as in law itself. The public, since no one even knows their own neighbors any longer, is not held to IUPG. The press is, and the jury and the court is. The general public is Not, and generally if they have enough info..they can figure out for themselves if a perp looks good for it. IT's common sense. Something we bring in to ever single case. When at work and when at home. Common sense tells me that those four men leaving the courtyard area on the cam had to have seen HG that night.

LE could ask for the credit card receipts of all who were there around that time and possibly find those 4 young men and any others who were there who may have seen something. Most don't have cash any more...debit or credit is how students roll these days.

 

[leah]

Wow...This seems like a lot of foot traffic for an 18 year old college girl to cover alone on a Friday night! Maybe I am wrong, but Hannah does not appear to be a "party girl" type of person that frequents bars alone, "lives for the week-end", gets drunk and high or engages in consensual risky behavior frequently. Not the kind of person I would see walking ALONE to bars. She appears to be social with a lot of friends and involvement in college activities, a softball player, band member, and a smart student who takes her grades and classes seriously. Her facebook/tweets don't display many pictures or comments about drinking and partying. So...why in the heck would she be running, stumbling, or walking around town late at night BY HERSELF???????

I have daughters, nieces (and even myself back in the day) who attended big colleges in party towns. We all have had different experiences with partying and engaging in risky behavior and establishing our "priorities" on a Friday night. Not a single one of us would have walked or been alone for that length of time, especially intoxicated, UNLESS we were meeting someone in particular, a guy we were interested in or someone we knew really well. Most college students (girls in particular) do not get drunk or walk around drunk by themselves, because drinking is a social thing! There is usually one girl in the group that feels they are the "caretaker" of everyone that is drunk and will attempt to make sure everyone gets home safely, even if they themselves are drunk! Look at the videos. There is NO OTHER FEMALE walking alone! Who was Hannah going to meet or who was she looking for? Was it JM? Was it someone she was secretly seeing or had a crush on? In my opinion, she had a purpose of going there alone, and her gait and brisk movements show it (as opposed to being lost).

Maybe someone she met online? I'm sure the police have her computer, something on there might help? Hannah seemed so out of place in those videos, like she doesn't belong there, maybe we will never know why exactly she took the path she did, or maybe she was terribly lost, and was very confused.

 

[Zinn]

His statement that he followed her because he thought she was in physical distress makes no sense to me, considering he was in front of her to begin with; he had to have seen her prior to that. I think he stepped into the doorway waiting for her to pass.

I've wondered if perhaps the two guys were working together. WG stepped into the doorway immediately after JM crossed his path walking in the opposite direction. WG then followed immediately behind Hannah and remained in that position after JM caught up to Hannah and walked beside her. I've wondered if perhaps WG was acting as a buffer between the Hannah-JM pair and the group behind him. Just a thought.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It was stated at the presser that they have footage of them after they left Tempo... So they're lying now?

Are you sure? I thought Longo said they didn't have a video of them leaving Tempo but they do have eye witnesses who saw them leave.

IMO

 

[fiorita]

Why aren't we discussing at all the fact that JM is on the loose, wanted (albeit for reckless driving) and no one can find him?

Charlottesville LE has no idea where he is and now that he's left the jurisdiction, they cannot be in charge of finding him?

Is this case now in the hands of VA state police and out of CPD's hands?

 

[Just K]

What does 'Trespass after forbidden' entail? Does that mean someone asked him to leave their house/premises and he refused?

I don't know but the charged offense was on St Patricks day. It's possible an establishment asked him to leave and called the police b/c he came back.

 

[Lava]

JM apparently arrived with family. So after his car was seized, his apartment searched, and having spoken to a police officer at that time, he must have gone to family who likely told him not to talk to the police without an attorney since the situation looked grave. So he asked for an attorney. Attorney told him to take a hike and not to talk to the police. Simple as that. He did as the attorney said to do. Probably told him to tell family to keep quiet too.

Snipped for space...


I'm also thinking that he would have talked could have retained that attorney. JM had not been charged, and therefore could not get a public defender. He probably consulted with an attorney he could not retain. That attorney said "Hey, you can't afford to retain me, and you can't get a PD, so your best bet right now is stay quiet. Wait for them to get their evidence and see if they will arrest you." So they left the station. IMO - He didn't come to the station JUST to ask for an attorney. IMO he wanted to talk, but with an attorney, and he could not have one sit in on the talk.

 

[Emaa]

LE could ask for the credit card receipts of all who were there around that time and possibly find those 4 young men and any others who were there who may have seen something. Most don't have cash any more...debit or credit is how students roll these days.

Would the police have cause to get a warrant for that? Lord I hope not.

 

[Lava]

Are you sure? I thought Longo said they didn't have a video of them leaving Tempo but they do have eye witnesses who saw them leave.

IMO

I believe they said they have video of them outside of Tempo.

 

[fiorita]

Does LE need a special warrant to access the POI's phone records?

 

[bluehydrangea]

I just keep wondering that do any of you all think there's a possibility that perhaps no one did anything to Hannah, but maybe something happened to her when she got lost? I mean, for example, the case of the one mentally ill young woman who disappeared, and then later they found her body in a lake, and she had drowned because she had wandered off by herself. Apparently she sometimes imagined things, like things were chasing her or something. And in the dark, she fell into a lake.

I'm just saying this because of the text Hannah sent that she was lost, and on top of that if she was inebrieated to where she didn't know her surroundings. Or even it could be the case that someone earlier had put some kind of date-rape drug or something in her drink, to where she was in a very vulnerable state. Is it possible she could have fell somewhere, or fallen into a lake, or something of that sort?

I have thought about this, too. I'm not familiar enough with the area to know if there are any sharp drops/bodies of water/etc, but I don't think that this is the most likely possibility. She was an athletic girl, and she walked around long enough to sober up significantly. And I think the fact that there are two men on camera seen following her is much more than a coincidence, IMO.

I believe what you're saying is very possible, but I think at this point there is enough evidence to suggest that there is someone else involved.