Was BR involved? #2

[UKGuy]

According to my understanding of James Kolar's book and the AMA he did last week, he believes BR was responsible for every aspect of the crime other than the ransom note. He appears to believe that the strangulation and the sexual assault with the paintbrush were done by BR in addition to the strike on the head. to me, this makes better sense than to think PR did the strangling and the thing with the paintbrush. I know there are mothers in the world who do monstrous things but JBR seemed to be PRs world and what she took the most pride and joy in. I just cant picture her doing such things, especially in the wake of finding what BR has done. It just seems an insane way to cover up an incident that's already happened. The ransom note, sure, I can see PR doing that. Plus I have to admit, it makes me feel way better if PR didn't do those terrible things to JBR. I find it easier to imagine a sibling doing this than the mother.

dogperson,
James Kolar is on record, via his Tricia Interview, suggesting that it all kicked off in the Kitchen or Breakfast Bar, he declined to expand on this scenario.

If so, then since the breakfast bar was not cleaned up, this means BR moved JonBenet down to the basement himself?

If BR redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, who hid the pair she wore to the White's and the remaining size-12's?

Patsy must have prepared JonBenet for bed since she has two asymmetric ponytails, not a style she would have worn to the White's party, and I cannot see BR dressing BR's hair as a form of staging?

I await Kolars latest book with interest, in case he drops any hints regarding his theory, otherwise questions about the fibers now relate to BR, what was he wearing that night, what color was his pajamas or the pants found on JonBenet's bedroom floor?

BR's touch-dna was found on the pink barbie nightgown, so he is linked to the wine-cellar, but nobody has said if BR's touch-dna was found on JonBenet, just that of the mythical intruder.

The manner in which JonBenet was asphyxiated was not particularly sophisticated, similarly for the blow to the head, and the internal assault using the paintbrush might just be post-mortem behaviour, same for the speculative use of the train tracks, I suspect this might be the pathology that Kolar has in mind?

So if BR did it all, including moving JonBenet into the wine-cellar, why all the collusion between the R's regarding the 911 call, and BR allegedly being asleep.

The parents would have woken to JonBenet missing and no ransom note, so how would the parents know where to look, never mind deciding to continue with the staging?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

According to my understanding of James Kolar's book and the AMA he did last week, he believes BR was responsible for every aspect of the crime other than the ransom note. He appears to believe that the strangulation and the sexual assault with the paintbrush were done by BR in addition to the strike on the head. to me, this makes better sense than to think PR did the strangling and the thing with the paintbrush. I know there are mothers in the world who do monstrous things but JBR seemed to be PRs world and what she took the most pride and joy in. I just cant picture her doing such things, especially in the wake of finding what BR has done. It just seems an insane way to cover up an incident that's already happened. The ransom note, sure, I can see PR doing that. Plus I have to admit, it makes me feel way better if PR didn't do those terrible things to JBR. I find it easier to imagine a sibling doing this than the mother.

I read Kolar's book too, and I did not get the impression he felt Br was responsible for every aspect of the crime except the ransom note. I do know he believe's (as do I) that BR molested her and bashed her on the head. I do not believe BR played a part in the staging- that was the parents, and that certainly explains Patsy and JR's fibers at the crime scene. I my mind, feel sure of this. The one thing I cannot make a definite decision on is the strangulation- is it staging, was it deliberate, was it a sex game gone wrong? I lean toward it being staging, done on a child they already thought dead (or close to it) and done to try to make it look more like a vindictive intruder bent on attacking JR's "bussiness". But even there, the RN belies the deception. The note clearly states "we respect your bussiness (sic) but not the country that it serves". Right there, they seem to not really have a problem with JR and his company but rather with the US. Why then kidnap/kill the child of someone you claim to respect? If your problem was the US, Access Graphic's parent company Lockheed Martin would seem a more likely target.
I cannot see BR doing the strangling deliberately, intending to kill his sister. She was already unconscious (and likely appeared dead or dying) anyway. So that rules out the first possibility. The second one- sex game gone wrong- again, I cannot see BR involved in that, at least not alone. It is one thing to "play doctor" and experiment sexually with a sibling- it DOES occur. But quite another for a 10-year-old to engage in erotic asphyxiation- not to mention that the coroner's findings on the ligature furrow is NOT consistent with the repeated tightening and loosening of the cord. So that leaves the third possibility- and the one I lean towards- that she was sexually assaulted and fatally bashed on the head and the strangulation was staged to provide a visible, obvious cause of death (because the head blow did not make a wound or any obvious sign of injury) and so there was no way to explain (without an autopsy) how she died. And they needed an explanation that pointed away from the family.

 

[DeeDee249]

dogperson,
James Kolar is on record, via his Tricia Interview, suggesting that it all kicked off in the Kitchen or Breakfast Bar, he declined to expand on this scenario.

If so, then since the breakfast bar was not cleaned up, this means BR moved JonBenet down to the basement himself?

If BR redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, who hid the pair she wore to the White's and the remaining size-12's?

Patsy must have prepared JonBenet for bed since she has two asymmetric ponytails, not a style she would have worn to the White's party, and I cannot see BR dressing BR's hair as a form of staging?

I await Kolars latest book with interest, in case he drops any hints regarding his theory, otherwise questions about the fibers now relate to BR, what was he wearing that night, what color was his pajamas or the pants found on JonBenet's bedroom floor?

BR's touch-dna was found on the pink barbie nightgown, so he is linked to the wine-cellar, but nobody has said if BR's touch-dna was found on JonBenet, just that of the mythical intruder.

The manner in which JonBenet was asphyxiated was not particularly sophisticated, similarly for the blow to the head, and the internal assault using the paintbrush might just be post-mortem behaviour, same for the speculative use of the train tracks, I suspect this might be the pathology that Kolar has in mind?

So if BR did it all, including moving JonBenet into the wine-cellar, why all the collusion between the R's regarding the 911 call, and BR allegedly being asleep.

The parents would have woken to JonBenet missing and no ransom note, so how would the parents know where to look, never mind deciding to continue with the staging?

.

I don't see why not cleaning up the breakfast bar has anything to do with BR bringing her to the basement. The breakfast and kitchen areas always looked like that- the housekeeper said she found a mess every single day.
I do not believe it would have been possible for BR to move an unconscious JB to the basement by himself. He wasn't a big kid. He'd have had to drag her down the stairs, and her body did NOT have the bruises and injuries consistent with that. It also assumed he would know that LHP always laundered the white blanket in the basement and it was still in the dryer there. Then, he'd have to spread it out, drag her into he wine cellar, and place her on the blanket. There were no drag marks in the mold on the floor in that room. And it was Patsy's ancillary hair (from her forearm) that was found on the blanket. Next we have to assume BR knew there was a package of new panties wrapped up as a gift in the basement. It was JR's fibers found in the panty crotch. In fact, NO fibers from BR were found on the body at all (assuming police were given his clothes to test, and I concede they may not have).
And a coroner can tell. How many parents beat their kids to death and try to say they "fell down the stairs"? Doctors in the emergency room can tell whether that really happened or not, as well as a coroner.

 

[icedtea4me]

According to my understanding of James Kolar's book and the AMA he did last week, he believes BR was responsible for every aspect of the crime other than the ransom note. He appears to believe that the strangulation and the sexual assault with the paintbrush were done by BR in addition to the strike on the head. to me, this makes better sense than to think PR did the strangling and the thing with the paintbrush. I know there are mothers in the world who do monstrous things but JBR seemed to be PRs world and what she took the most pride and joy in. I just cant picture her doing such things, especially in the wake of finding what BR has done. It just seems an insane way to cover up an incident that's already happened. The ransom note, sure, I can see PR doing that. Plus I have to admit, it makes me feel way better if PR didn't do those terrible things to JBR. I find it easier to imagine a sibling doing this than the mother.

"Seemed", imo, being the operative word here.

 

[BoldBear]

I have a problem with the idea that the asphyxiation game using such a narrow rope. Maybe I over think everything, but a rope that small would cause bruising and parents would catch-on quickly.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

Erotic asphyxiation, really? I know kids start earlier than back in my day but consider the scenario. A 9yo male suffocates a 6yo female, at her request, to heighten her sexual pleasure/orgasm.

Asphyxiation for the sexual pleasure of someone other than the victim would simply be sadistic perversion.

 

[madeleine]

I don't see why not cleaning up the breakfast bar has anything to do with BR bringing her to the basement. The breakfast and kitchen areas always looked like that- the housekeeper said she found a mess every single day.
I do not believe it would have been possible for BR to move an unconscious JB to the basement by himself. He wasn't a big kid. He'd have had to drag her down the stairs, and her body did NOT have the bruises and injuries consistent with that. It also assumed he would know that LHP always laundered the white blanket in the basement and it was still in the dryer there. Then, he'd have to spread it out, drag her into he wine cellar, and place her on the blanket. There were no drag marks in the mold on the floor in that room. And it was Patsy's ancillary hair (from her forearm) that was found on the blanket. Next we have to assume BR knew there was a package of new panties wrapped up as a gift in the basement. It was JR's fibers found in the panty crotch. In fact, NO fibers from BR were found on the body at all (assuming police were given his clothes to test, and I concede they may not have).
And a coroner can tell. How many parents beat their kids to death and try to say they "fell down the stairs"? Doctors in the emergency room can tell whether that really happened or not, as well as a coroner.

the fact that nobody bothered to wipe off the glass and the bowl makes me believe the parents had no clue about the kids having had a snack that evening/night....I mean,someone bothered to wipe off the flashlight,then why not remove the bowl and the glass from the table if it connects Burke to what happened that night?

 

[dogperson]

Kolar does not believe the strangulation was staging, is my understanding. He appears to believe BR did this as well. He hints that this along with the paintbrush are all part of the same motive but does not reveal what this motive is. He does seem to hint that it is aggression or jealousy being acted out in a sexual way and does a whole chapter in regard to this type of behavior in young boys. The staging is the RN, the repeated insistence that BR was asleep the whole time, that BR never interacted with JBR after they returned from the party, that no snack was given to JBR by anybody. The tape is staging, along with the ropes, and may have been done by a parent. Probably not by BR if he is the perpetrator.

 

[dogperson]

Oh, and another thing Kolar says puzzles me, (it may have been in the AMA transcript) having to do with the Christmas presents in the basement with the paper peeled back. He says this is related to what led JBR to be bashed on the head. Why? Do we know what was in those packages? Since he seems to believe BR hit JBR on the head, why would BR care if maybe JBR peeled the paper back? Or is this even what he is getting at?

 

[UKGuy]

I don't see why not cleaning up the breakfast bar has anything to do with BR bringing her to the basement. The breakfast and kitchen areas always looked like that- the housekeeper said she found a mess every single day.
I do not believe it would have been possible for BR to move an unconscious JB to the basement by himself. He wasn't a big kid. He'd have had to drag her down the stairs, and her body did NOT have the bruises and injuries consistent with that. It also assumed he would know that LHP always laundered the white blanket in the basement and it was still in the dryer there. Then, he'd have to spread it out, drag her into he wine cellar, and place her on the blanket. There were no drag marks in the mold on the floor in that room. And it was Patsy's ancillary hair (from her forearm) that was found on the blanket. Next we have to assume BR knew there was a package of new panties wrapped up as a gift in the basement. It was JR's fibers found in the panty crotch. In fact, NO fibers from BR were found on the body at all (assuming police were given his clothes to test, and I concede they may not have).
And a coroner can tell. How many parents beat their kids to death and try to say they "fell down the stairs"? Doctors in the emergency room can tell whether that really happened or not, as well as a coroner.

DeeDee249,
I'm simply teasing out some implications in James Kolars theory. He reckons BR was responsible for most of what took place including the ligature asphyxiation.

I don't see why not cleaning up the breakfast bar has anything to do with BR bringing her to the basement. The breakfast and kitchen areas always looked like that- the housekeeper said she found a mess every single day.

You make my point, with clarity, for me. So the parents discounted how the breakfast looked, if they ever looked? The connection is that if the parents had found JonBenet injured in the breakfast bar, surely they would have cleaned everything up, including the remains of the pineapple snack, Patsy would have known right away. That there was no cleanup, it follows JonBenet was moved or walked voluntarly to the basement?

I'm with you on BR finding it difficult to move JonBenet down to the basement, so maybe he sweet talked her to go down with him?

Next we have to assume BR knew there was a package of new panties wrapped up as a gift in the basement.

According to Kolar, BR opened the, to become, partially opened gifts on Christmas afternoon, so he would be aware of the size-12's!

The fiber evidence is circumstantial, its alike BR's touch dna, its not compelling. Maybe it arrived via secondary staging, after BR told the R's where JonBenet was located?

Maybe the train room was the primary crime-scene, with the parents simply cleaning up JonBenet, i.e. JR wiping the blood from JonBenet's thighs, and Patsy messing around with some other details?

If BR is culpable then his fibers have to be on JonBenet, particularly those size-12's possibly including touch-dna, just as it was found on the pink barbie nightgown!

.

 

[UKGuy]

Oh, and another thing Kolar says puzzles me, (it may have been in the AMA transcript) having to do with the Christmas presents in the basement with the paper peeled back. He says this is related to what led JBR to be bashed on the head. Why? Do we know what was in those packages? Since he seems to believe BR hit JBR on the head, why would BR care if maybe JBR peeled the paper back? Or is this even what he is getting at?

dogperson,
Well some say there was a Barbie Doll lying on the wine-cellar floor, maybe BR used this to induce JonBenet to accompany him down to the basement?

If the train room has those train tracks in it then this looks like the primary crime-scene as per Kolar. BR's birthday gift was allegedly in one of those packages.

Kolar definitely appears to be suggesting that BR could have been acting out some sexual pathology, particularly with the use of the paintbrush, something seen in other homicides!

.

 

[dogperson]

It does seem odd BR would strike her on the head then get her to the basement. Maybe they took the flashlight to the basement and the strike in the head happened there. For whatever reason, the flashlight was returned to the kitchen, either by BR or one of the parents.

 

[UKGuy]

It does seem odd BR would strike her on the head then get her to the basement. Maybe they took the flashlight to the basement and the strike in the head happened there. For whatever reason, the flashlight was returned to the kitchen, either by BR or one of the parents.

dogperson,
The use of the flashlight and BR's penknife are strange since they do not seem to fit in to any theory. Both items appear redundant, since why not simply switch the lights on, its the basement after all?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't think JB walked to the basement. I think whatever occurred that night up to the point she was bashed on the head took place in kitchen and possibly the kids' bedroom(s). I think at the time of the head bash and her immediate collapse, the parents came onto that horrific scene and sent BR to his room with strict instructions to remain there until someone came to get him. He did come into the kitchen for the 911 call. I think it likely that JB was carried down to the basement, and placed face down on the carpeted floor just outside the wine cellar, where the strangulation took place, followed by her death. Then she was moved to the wine cellar, placed face UP on the blanket and the rest of the staging took place. I know traces of creatinine (dried urine) were found on the carpet in the area of the paint tote, and of course we know one of the broken pieces of the paintbrush was found still in that tote. I often wondered whether any small droplets of blood were found there as well. I have never seen much speculation about where the wiping of the blood may have taken place. There was no blood on her clothes except for the few small drops on the inside of the panty crotch. But small drops of her blood were found on the pink nightie that was on top of the white blanket. I also wonder exactly where the initial injury that caused the bleeding in the first place occurred. Too bad that the house was whitewashed so quickly- all carpets pulled up, etc. I'd have liked to see whether there was any blood on that carpet, or anywhere else in the house.

 

[dogperson]

dogperson,
The use of the flashlight and BR's penknife are strange since they do not seem to fit in to any theory. Both items appear redundant, since why not simply switch the lights on, its the basement after all?

.

The only reason I can think of for taking the flashlight down is to make a game of going to the basement. Going down in the dark like an adventure. As a kid I did odd little things like that with other kids, trying to spook ourselves, playing like we were camping out, etc. But if I were the Ramseys I can't see myself leaving the flashlight out even if I had wiped it clean. I'd try to put it someplace far from the kitchen so LE wouldn't connect it to the crime, like upstairs in a bedroom drawer or out in the car glove compartment as if it was my emergency flashlight. Nothing about this whole thing really suggests sophisticated criminals were involved, to me anyway.

 

[Meara]

The only reason I can think of for taking the flashlight down is to make a game of going to the basement. Going down in the dark like an adventure. As a kid I did odd little things like that with other kids, trying to spook ourselves, playing like we were camping out, etc. But if I were the Ramseys I can't see myself leaving the flashlight out even if I had wiped it clean. I'd try to put it someplace far from the kitchen so LE wouldn't connect it to the crime, like upstairs in a bedroom drawer or out in the car glove compartment as if it was my emergency flashlight. Nothing about this whole thing really suggests sophisticated criminals were involved, to me anyway.

Hi dogperson. People have suggested a variety of Burke-flashlight-basement scenarios, and the reason they seem unlikely to me is that JBR found the basement creepy and disliked going there at all. I can only think she would have liked going there alone with Burke at night, using the flashlight, far less.

It emerged during the investigation that the Rams normally kept their flashlight (you know, the one that the flashlight found on the kitchen counter so closely resembled :waiting in a small drawer in the back hall, so putting it away there would have been the least suspicious choice despite proximity to the kitchen. Why it was left in the open but wiped down - who knows? I expect St. Peter will be thoroughly bemused some years from now when person after person arrives at the pearly gates and says, "Why did the Ramseys leave the flashlight on the counter?"

 

[anne11]

I have a theory that there was a gift missing from BR christmas list that he expected to receive, maybe a bycycle (JB and PR had new bikes for christmas) I remember PR mentioning that children got almost all of the items their christmas list (if I remember correctly it was in Death of innocence) coud have been something important to him was missing and he was searching in the basement for his birthday gifts with JB in tow. All just moo !

 

[Jilly1059]

Maybe they went downstairs together to check out the packages and BR ripped the paper off the ends and JBR threatened to tell on him, so he bopped her in the head?
My kids snuck their gifts out from under the tree one year and unwrapped them...very carefully, and then sealed them back up and put them back under our tree!!!! Lol that's when i started carrying presents around in the trunk of my car until Christmas Eve!!


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[dogperson]

The thing that makes this case so puzzling is that no single theory fully explains every detail of this crime. The flashlight, the knife, the bash on the head, the strangulation, the paintbrush, etc etc. I still don't buy the intruder theory but cannot figure out exactly what did happen.

 

[Jilly1059]

Maybe PR told JR to put the Wednesday panties on her and that was the only ones he could find...being a man he probably didn't care about size...and JBR wasn't alive to complain.

I'm thinking the same reason applies to why the LE team didn't take them for evidence was because they were in a package and they were focused on getting DNA evidence. Panties still in their package wouldn't have been worn. So they ignored them and left them in the drawer.


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