GUILTY CA - Madyson Middleton, 8, Santa Cruz, 26 July 2015 - #3 *Arrest*

[Madeleine74]

She has compassion that AJG's mother also 'lost' her son that day, likely forever. Maddy's mother sees that both she and the other mother have terrible losses. Again, how many people could ever see it that way? I think very few.

Actually I have seen that kind of compassion and in a case local to my area. Husband murdered his estranged wife. Strangled her and left her mostly nude body lying in a drainage ditch about 3 miles away from their house. Two little girls lost their mommy that day. The parents of the murdered woman saw all the sides of the tragedy, including that their son-in-law ruined his own life in addition. They reached out to the killer's parents so that they could continue to form a grandparent relationship with the 2 little girls after the killer was convicted. I thought that was pretty amazing. Don't know too many people who would ever espouse such compassion.

 

[blue22]

If this 15 yr old had been a victim of a crime and that crime was being discussed on WS, chances are he'd be called a baby. However, as perpetrator of this crime (yes, it is among the worst there can be), he is instead a fully mature monster. Such is the range when described through the well of emotions.

It's ironic that Maddy's mother has compassion for the evil monster killer of her own daughter, and far beyond those whose only connection to this case is through news reports. The mother is demonstrating a level of forgiveness or at least empathy & compassion I've rarely seen. I don't know her religious beliefs, but what she's displaying appears to be the living embodiment of Christian-type values of forgiveness, the very ones espoused in Sunday sermons all across the land.

I'm not religious, and I don't think I could be as gracious or compassionate, but I think Maddy's mom is an amazing example and a miracle of human spirit, and if people pay attention and take their cues from her, they may find some peace eventually.

I've never seen people refer to a 15 year old as a "baby" before, here or anywhere else. (Except in the case of special needs.) I would never call a 15 year old a baby. I would refer to them as a juvenile or teenager. AJ is just that, but as with all cases...the circumstances will define the punishment differently. In AJ's case, the circumstances call for harsher, adult punishment. A perpetrator can commit a crime that calls for the law to no longer see them as a juvenile. On the flip side, a victim cannot be victimized in such a way that it makes them an adult. There have been many victims around the age of 15 discussed on websleuths and I don't recall ever seeing one referred to as baby. (Other than saying he/she was the mother's baby. But when referring to age, I've only seen teenager, kid, or juvenile.)

To add:
I'm a Christian. Forgiveness does not mean liking a person or seeing them as good. Forgiveness does not mean you can't see someone as horrible, evil, etc.

 

[bluesneakers]

It's disturbing to me someone would show up here and question the language used to describe an alleged rapist and offer up "He's not even old enough for consensual sex" as some kind of ... twisted defense? Or what? I don't get it.

But the kid is a .

JMO.

 

[katydid23]

It's disturbing to me someone would show up here and question the language used to describe an alleged rapist and offer up "He's not even old enough for consensual sex" as some kind of ... twisted defense? Or what? I don't get it.

But the kid is a .

JMO.

BBM

See, every once in a blue moon, we do agree on something. :wink:

 

[Madeleine74]

I've never seen people refer to a 15 year old as a "baby" before, here or anywhere else. (Except in the case of special needs.) I would never call a 15 year old a baby.

Well I have seen the terms "baby," "little girl/boy" and "young girl/boy" used. Various cases covered on WS; it's actually quite common. Just a few I can list off the top of my head. I note it because I've always found it interesting that a victim even up to age 16 is sometimes seen as a "baby" or "little girl/boy" and a perp at the same or near the same age never is. Just one of those things...

- 16 yr old Hannah Anderson
- 20 yr old Heather Elvis
- 14 yr olds Austin Stephanous & Perry Cohen
- 12 yr old 'Slenderman' case, girl who was stabbed by two of her 12 yr old friends. She has been called 'baby' and the other 2 girls the same age are just "the monsters." And, the two 12 yr olds will be tried as adults.

 

[LinasK]

It's disturbing to me someone would show up here and question the language used to describe an alleged rapist and offer up "He's not even old enough for consensual sex" as some kind of ... twisted defense? Or what? I don't get it.

But the kid is a .

JMO.

BBM. Agreed. I just don't understand this mentality. It's minimizing what he did. Even if someone knew him in real life, they obviously didn't know him as well as they thought...

 

[LinasK]

It's ironic that Maddy's mother has compassion for the evil monster killer of her own daughter, and far beyond those whose only connection to this case is through news reports. The mother is demonstrating a level of forgiveness or at least empathy & compassion I've rarely seen. I don't know her religious beliefs, but what she's displaying appears to be the living embodiment of Christian-type values of forgiveness, the very ones espoused in Sunday sermons all across the land.

I'm not religious, and I don't think I could be as gracious or compassionate, but I think Maddy's mom is an amazing example and a miracle of human spirit, and if people pay attention and take their cues from her, they may find some peace eventually.

Just because Maddy's mother is exhibiting forgiveness doesn't mean I have to:snooty:- in this case or another!

 

[Madeleine74]

Just because Maddy's mother is exhibiting forgiveness doesn't mean I have to:snooty:- in this case or another!

Where did anyone say you or anyone else on WS "have to" exhibit forgiveness? In fact, I noted that Maddy's mother is a rare exception and I specifically pointed out that most people could never do that, including people whose only link to the case is through news reports.

 

[katydid23]

I totally understand feeling compassion and empathy for the killer's mother. As far as we know, she tried to be a good mom and she worked hard to make a nice home for her son. If she had abused him and mistreated him, I would hold her partially responsible. Or if she refused to get him mental help. But it seems that he was good at hiding under the radar. And just because she struggled as a single mom, and had some instability at times, it does not mean she is responsible for his monstrous, evil ways. JMO

But him, NO, I cannot forgive him at this time.

 

[blue22]

Well I have seen the terms "baby," "little girl/boy" and "young girl/boy" used. Various cases covered on WS; it's actually quite common. Just a few I can list off the top of my head. I note it because I've always found it interesting that a victim even up to age 16 is sometimes seen as a "baby" or "little girl/boy" and a perp at the same or near the same age never is. Just one of those things...

- 16 yr old Hannah Anderson
- 20 yr old Heather Elvis
- 14 yr olds Austin Stephanous & Perry Cohen
- 12 yr old 'Slenderman' case, girl who was stabbed by two of her 12 yr old friends. She has been called 'baby' and the other 2 girls the same age are just "the monsters." And, the two 12 yr olds will be tried as adults.

Referring to a child/teen/etc as someones baby, is different than saying the person IS or WAS just a baby. Not that I want to argue about semantics. When someone is a victim, they get met with compassion and sadness. The same is not usually extended to a perpetrator who rapes and murders another human being. It makes complete sense that a victim would be called something and a perpetrator would not. How could a human who CHOOSES to lure, rape, and murder a child ever be called a "baby?" Why are you so confused about that? A victim is always seen as their age. A perpetrator does not get the same privilege. They are seen as he law chooses to see them, based on their crime. AJ and the slenderman perpetrators are no longer juveniles, they are adults in the eye of the law. When you kill other people, you don't get the privilege of diminutive titles. A victim always does. Why should we lump victims and perpetrators together in what we call them? The law doesn't and neither will I. Ever. You do something like he did to sweet Madyson, you get called a murderer, rapist, evil, etc...that's what he is.

 

[T4Tide]

It's really not as much about the numerical age as it is the positions that only one side of a crime get to "choose." Regardless of their age, victims deserve the utmost respect, dignity, and compassion. This is why we call them terms of endearment.....baby girl, baby boy, precious, angel, etc. These words describe the lost souls of WS with the innocence they possessed.

What do perpetrators deserve?

Just the opposite.

It was the perps CHOICE to put themselves in a position to be described with the only language we can muster that even comes close to what they did to their precious, innocent victims. I'm not a fan of bad language at all, but in my opinion, actually seems a little mild compared to the atrocities acted out upon a dear, sweet BABY, whose tiny, undeveloped entrance to her womb was defiled, ripped, and mutilated by a much older, very much adult sized body in adult like ways.

Yep....when I think about it that way, it's kind of offensive to s#%t, which isn't nearly as evil.

 

[katydid23]

Well I have seen the terms "baby," "little girl/boy" and "young girl/boy" used. Various cases covered on WS; it's actually quite common. Just a few I can list off the top of my head. I note it because I've always found it interesting that a victim even up to age 16 is sometimes seen as a "baby" or "little girl/boy" and a perp at the same or near the same age never is. Just one of those things...

- 16 yr old Hannah Anderson
- 20 yr old Heather Elvis
- 14 yr olds Austin Stephanous & Perry Cohen
- 12 yr old 'Slenderman' case, girl who was stabbed by two of her 12 yr old friends. She has been called 'baby' and the other 2 girls the same age are just "the monsters." And, the two 12 yr olds will be tried as adults.

In the cases of Hannah and Heather, they had the extreme misfortune of being mixed up in relationships with older messed up individuals. So in comparison, they are BABIES. Babies in relation to the older perps they were trying to relate to emotionally. I think the term baby is given IN CONTEXT.

Austin and Perry were 'babies' in the context of being alone in the wide open wicked sea. They were inexperienced and unable to make mature decisions, imo.

I do not think the two 12 yr old perpetrators should be tried as adults in this Slenderman case. I think they are babies and immature and mentally ill, most likely.

 

[Madeleine74]

Referring to a child/teen/etc as someones baby, is different than saying the person IS or WAS just a baby.

Yes, that was my exact point. If AG had been a victim instead of the perp, he might have (and probably would have at some point) been referred to as that poor baby or just a young boy. Of course none of these teens and young adults are actually babies. And as the perp, teens of or around the same age are seen as adult (mastermind) criminals.

I notice the dichotomy and perhaps I'm the only one, but what it seems to do is serve a way to infanticize a victim, even if that victim is of legal age, and make a similarly aged perp a full-on adult even if they are not. Now in this case the perp and victim are not close in age, but both are/were legally minors.

And again, that doesn't give a pass to any perp who brutalizes another person, no matter the age of the perp or the victim, and it doesn't excuse the crime in any way, shape, or form. But a perp who is under the age of 18 (or lets say 16) is still a minor even if their case causes them to be charged as if they are an adult.

 

[Ladylub]

Does anyone else cringe a little when reading terms like "evil piece of ****" used on a fifteen year old boy? I acknowledge that what he did was tremendously awful and that the people involved will never be the same - but does some part of anyone feel that awkward twinge when realizing that young man isn't even old enough to consent to have sex, legally? Overall very conflicted - and I'm friends with a good friend of Mady's mother, so that makes it even harder. At least in their memorial photographs she's smiling. So strong. I wouldn't be able to do it.

More then likely called him something close on the threads I'm sorry it makes you cringe but its honestly how I feel. In fact I normally sugarcoat what I really think of them. If I spoke about these murders how I truly want the MODs would give me a permanent seat outside the threads. Once they commit a crime like this they all become less then human, regardless of age.

 

[blue22]

Yes, that was my exact point. If AG had been a victim instead of the perp, he might have (and probably would have at some point) been referred to as that poor baby or just a young boy. Of course none of these teens and young adults are actually babies. And as the perp, teens of or around the same age are seen as adult (mastermind) criminals.

A victim is always seen in the opposite light of a criminal who rapes and murders. I'm sorry if you can't intellectualize that, wrap your head around that, or accept it. I'm moving on.

 

[Madeleine74]

A victim is always seen in the opposite light of a criminal who rapes and murders. I'm sorry if you can't intellectualize that, wrap your head around that, or accept it. I'm moving on.

That's fine. I can intellectualize it and in fact that's exactly what I do as I look at the dynamics of a case because I want to understand the legal issues and sometimes there are sociological issues at play as well, and that is often the situation when a perp is also a minor. What I don't do as much as others on WS is get superEmo (i.e. emotional) and look at a criminal case through an emo lens. Of course these cases are horrific and terribly sad and tragic on every level and the desire for revenge is strong.

I also can look at a case like this and see that there's a 15 yr old who not only ended the life of an innocent girl horribly, but at the same time he also threw his own life away and destroyed his mother (and family members) in addition to all the people who know and love Maddy & her family. I see the tragedy all around.

 

[katydid23]

I find it kind of hard not to get 'super emo' about murdered children.

 

[Madeleine74]

Notice I was specifically talking about cases and how I look at them. I was not saying I don't feel rage, anger, sadness for the victim. I certainly do. However, there is a tendency to take words out of context and twist them to mean something else in order to suggest it was a personal insult. What does that gain?

 

[Lilibet]

Just for the record, as some seem confused, the OP did not say she knows AJG or his mother. She is friends with someone who knows Maddy's mother. I can imagine in that particular circle of friends, in a more "alternative" community like Santa Cruz, attitudes would be different and more conflicted than they are here on WS. They aren't as familiar with evil actions as we are. This may be their first experience with someone that age committing atrocities, whereas we've seen it before and have already processed this type of situation (Gabe Gaeta/Jenise Wright for example).

It's the type of community that is more inclined to believe that everyone has value and is capable of good, so I can understand her cringing about crude expressions used about AJG, even while knowing what he's done. She probably can't yet bring herself to imagine that he is as irredeemable as many here believe. She's certainly entitled to her struggle and her feelings. It obviously was not a wise first post, but I do understand where she was coming from because I live in a similar community.
JMO

 

[T4Tide]

That's why we have so many threads filled with these heinous crimes.

With the passing of time, we lose the humans with emo and gain three narcissists in his or her place.