Sentencing and beyond- Jodi Arias General Discussion #3

[Caylee Advocate]

This just shows how nuts and evil she really is. What a treacherous, vile .




Transcription of Arias' email to Travis on June 7, 2008 - 3 days after she killed him:

"Hey You…

I haven’t heard back from you. I hope you’re not still upset that I didn’t come to see you, I just didn’t have enough time off. It’s ok, sweetie, you’re going to be here in less than two weeks – we’re going to see the sights, check things off “The List,” and all kinds of fun things. Oregon is BEAUTIFUL this time of the year. Yaaay!..... be happy!

Anyway I wanted to let you know that I’m thinking about pushing my visit up to next week, but it depends on my budget, so I’m not for sure yet. I know you’ll be in Cancun, but I’ll probably crash at your house in your cozy bed anyway… eat some of your oatmeal and frozen dinners you know, the usual – jk I know you said the door is always open, but I wanted to give you a heads up. If for any reason that won’t work, let me know and I’ll make arrangements. Your house has always been my second home, although it’s a bit more lonely without Naps around. You’re probably in California right now, but wherever you are, get a hold of me, at least before you get to Mexico.

Thanks hon, -Jodi "

 

[pocketaccent]

ugggg, shame on me for mistaking the butcheress' words for possible facts.:facepalm:

 

[Hope4More]

Again, I hear you but what you're saying is personal interpretation without evidence. unsubjective evidence, like metadata or like the fact of when her phone came back on. Not just opinions of what Travis would or wouldn't do on a given day.

I saw May 26th totally differently. If I said he "forgave her," then that's not the phrase I meant. I meant he let her back in. This is the state I believe Travis was still in when she showed up. He tells us how conflicted he is about her in the g-chat.


" I thought I might break away this time but you knew I couldnt."

"you knew one call and you'd reel me in."

"because I am addicted. you are ruining my life but I'm addicted."

"I tried to stay away this time but you called. And you made sure I heard your voice. You knew that would be enough, not how many infractions. Its obvious by anyone's reason that I should have never have anything to do with you. you just kill me. every time. I keep taking you back. I have come to terms winterestinn partial addicted to you."


He never says he "was" addicted. He never indicates it's over. In fact, he says, "let's drop the pretense. You win. I'm addicted."


This is 8 days before she showed up. I suspect this inner conflict was still there when he saw her face again for the first time in 2 months. She's addicted, too. She got herself pimped and waxed because she knew she was having sex with him when she got there. She knew it, just as he outlines above about how she knows her effect on him. If he felt that conflicted over a phone call, imagine the flood of emotions when she was there, in his presence, after two months.

I don't see any evidence that indicates that the day didn't go down very closely to what the evidence in trial lays out. I see no reason to throw Melendez's work out the window. There's no evidence contradicting the metadata.

I can't know that what was in Jodi's mind before the murder had anything to do with what was in her mind once she realized her plan to get away with it hadn't worked. We're talking about a person who went from thinking she controlled everything to realizing she controlled nothing.

If certain things didn't happen according to the evidence, I do know she has no problem saying something different. And that includes using the pictures as part of her own defense against premeditation. If Melendez couldn't figure out that all the information on the pics was wrong, Jodi would have pointed out that it was wrong. "You're wrong," she'd once said to Juan while on the stand. And I believe it was about the "shaving pics." And she wouldn't let it go because he was wrong. Her desire to be right at this point, I think, would drive her to correct them about the sex pics--especially if that correction is in her favor.

We can agree to disagree because I can't really debate a person's personal interpretation. If there is evidence that contradicts the evidence we know, that's different.

BTW, I don't know what you're doing by posting the transcripts of the interrogation. That's crazy--just as crazy as me, so thanks. I caused me to read stuff that might have just been murmurings that I ignored. What I want a transcript of are the calls between her and Flores.

The transcripts of the calls between Flores and the killer are on the timeline thread too.

(One catch from those transcripts- she tells Flores that Travis was so strict about the no-caffeine rule that he wouldn't even allow roommates to keep soda in the refrigerator.

Interesting, eh? Given her repeated lies about Travis drinking Starbucks coffee- lies obviously intended to portray Travis as a bad Mormon. The look on her face when that tape was played in court is telling too. She knew it was a problem, even wrote a note or whispered to JW right afterwards).

As to May 26 and June 4. You're right. All I have is my own opinion and my own interpretations about what was meant and felt, and by definition that is subjective. Agreeing to disagree is one of my specialities, so it's all good.

 

[Hope4More]

Putting some pieces together --

He doesn't appear to have ever dressed for the day, or put on his watch and ring, or to have eaten more than a few spoonfuls of oatmeal, or to have spent any time on his computer between 4:30ish AM and after 3PM, or on his cell phone at all, with the possible exception of sending a single very short text at 12:13pm, replying to Chris, but not to Maria with whom he has been in constant texting contact for days, nor to Regan, ditto.

Dead by early morning, IMO.

 

[wasnt_me]

The transcripts of the calls between Flores and the killer are on the timeline thread too.

(One catch from those transcripts- she tells Flores that Travis was so strict about the no-caffeine rule that he wouldn't even allow roommates to keep soda in the refrigerator.

Interesting, eh? Given her repeated lies about Travis drinking Starbucks coffee- lies obviously intended to portray Travis as a bad Mormon. The look on her face when that tape was played in court is telling too. She knew it was a problem, even wrote a note or whispered to JW right afterwards).

As to May 26 and June 4. You're right. All I have is my own opinion and my own interpretations about what was meant and felt, and by definition that is subjective. Agreeing to disagree is one of my specialities, so it's all good.

Yeah, I mean it depends, though. Wasn't she getting him some strawberry frappuccino? It's not a coffee drink, I don't think. You can get apple cider and other stuff not coffee at Starbucks.

Look--what's the deal you are talking about with this text from Chris on June 4th? Why do you think it's Mark Smith's meeting?

Chris: Urgent!! Jim Rohn Success Symposium Seminar! Mark Smith is about to send out the link, so to make sure your team has tickets... Buy now! Http://www.yoursuccessstore.com/pp. Get the word out fast!!Forward!Call!Email!!Special ppl price!67$

I don't know. The more of the pattern I see in Travis' texts is that he didn't necessarily text everyone back all the time, and he usually started texting in the afternoon. I see a VERY weird text day that begins what seems like after 5pm on June 1st. I wonder if his phone was out of batter because all the "unsent" messages there make no sense.

 

[wasnt_me]

Putting some pieces together --

He doesn't appear to have ever dressed for the day, or put on his watch and ring, or to have eaten more than a few spoonfuls of oatmeal, or to have spent any time on his computer between 4:30ish AM and after 3PM, or on his cell phone at all, with the possible exception of sending a single very short text at 12:13pm, replying to Chris, but not to Maria with whom he has been in constant texting contact for days, nor to Regan, ditto.

Dead by early morning, IMO.

I don't know why Travis is required to get "dressed" if he doesn't have a job to go to. I think I might even recall him joking about the fact h didn't have to do all that somewhere, but I can't remember where. It's also possible that Jodi took his bloody clothes with her. We don't know. We also don't know why he wasn't wearing his ring or watch. If he got up after sex, he just hadn't done it yet. Then he decided to do the floor, so why would he put them on if he did indeed decide to do the floor?

We have no idea how much oatmeal was digested already, just what was left, which might prove he got up later in the day since it was still digesting. We already established that he doesn't always text Maria or others back right away. As for replying to Maria or Reagan, I wouldn't expect him to if he's having sex or talking to Jodi. So these things don't prove he was dead when the photos show him alive at 530pm.

If he and Jodi are taking pics, filming and such at 147pm, Reagan is texting an hour later, which means they could possibly still be having sex at that time--according to Melendez's forensic testimony that has not been discredited by any other actual facts.

 

[Hope4More]

I don't know why Travis is required to get "dressed" if he doesn't have a job to go to. I think I might even recall him joking about the fact h didn't have to do all that somewhere, but I can't remember where. It's also possible that Jodi took his bloody clothes with her. We don't know. We also don't know why he wasn't wearing his ring or watch. If he got up after sex, he just hadn't done it yet. Then he decided to do the floor, so why would he put them on if he did indeed decide to do the floor?

We have no idea how much oatmeal was digested already, just what was left, which might prove he got up later in the day since it was still digesting. We already established that he doesn't always text Maria or others back right away. As for replying to Maria or Reagan, I wouldn't expect him to if he's having sex or talking to Jodi. So these things don't prove he was dead when the photos show him alive at 530pm.

If he and Jodi are taking pics, filming and such at 147pm, Reagan is texting an hour later, which means they could possibly still be having sex at that time--according to Melendez's forensic testimony that has not been discredited by any other actual facts.

Note emphasis on the " IMO " in my post. And FWIW, there is no actual evidence that Travis cleaned the floors. One of his roommates told Flores, actually, that Travis hadn't yet assembled his brand new tile cleaner.

Not sure how much sense it makes in any case that Travis would choose to whip out his floor cleaner in the middle of trysting with his killer, but not bother to return texts. Not seeing it.....

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Good posts Hope4More, you have really dove into researching this case. I don't know how you do it, but I'm glad you do. I appreciate all of your hard work!! Have a good night, I am gonna' lurk for a bit.

 

[RickshawFan]

Note emphasis on the " IMO " in my post. And FWIW, there is no actual evidence that Travis cleaned the floors. One of his roommates told Flores, actually, that Travis hadn't yet assembled his brand new tile cleaner.

Not sure how much sense it makes in any case that Travis would choose to whip out his floor cleaner in the middle of trysting with his killer, but not bother to return texts. Not seeing it.....

I can't imagine him being him being aware she was there if he was unpacking and assembling a floor cleaner.

 

[wasnt_me]

Note emphasis on the " IMO " in my post. And FWIW, there is no actual evidence that Travis cleaned the floors. One of his roommates told Flores, actually, that Travis hadn't yet assembled his brand new tile cleaner.

Not sure how much sense it makes in any case that Travis would choose to whip out his floor cleaner in the middle of trysting with his killer, but not bother to return texts. Not seeing it.....

Sorry, the post sounded like an assertion of fact.

I don't disagree about the floor cleaner as it pertains to the sex, but not the texts. It's more of a reason not to answer texts. He's assembling something and moving furniture. From what I understand, they said he'd started assembling it one day and then it was assembled in the middle of the floor the next day. It was my theory or thought that he went to working with it as a hint for her to get out and go on the rest of her trip. Just my guess, though. It's weird. Very weird for it to be there.

And I said he decided to do the floor. I wasn't saying he accomplished the task. It's my thought that she pulled him away from that task with the idea for the shower pictures.

I think there is plenty of proof in his texts of how he responded to people. For anyone who observes the pattern, they will see it's not extraordinary in his pattern.

 

[wasnt_me]

Here's something interesting, though, that I was looking at while looking for the phone transcripts. I keep saying something isn't right about the Ryan Burns supposed texts on the Helio phone. Well, then I remembered something she texted Travis in April:

04/22/08 04:32PM Sent outgoing Do you still have the text I sent you 2 weeks ago with my personal best time for the mile and a half?
04/22/08 04:33PM Read Incoming Not sure. I'll check
04/22/08 04:33PM Sent Outgoing Thank you.
04/22/08 04:57PM Read Incoming No sorry. My phone deletes older msgs to make room. I did find some mean ones that u sent me though. =( Yes, I deleted them.

So if her phone deletes texts to make room, and had deleted his texts from two weeks prior, how in the world did it manage to have texts from April 30th, May 2nd and May 3rd if it's systematically deleting texts to make room?

Travis actually texted her the mile thing 4/14/08, which is only a week prior. So if the phone was on up till 5/18, how does it still contain messages from May 2 and 3? Either she lied to Travis because she was being spiteful and actually had the text, didn't feel like looking for the text, or she told the truth, but the 4/30, 5/2 and 5/3 texts are fakes because the phone wouldn't hold texts that long.

I don't know, but the RB texts are hinky to me because I don't how how he's "almost convinced her" all the way back on 5/3, but then he testifies that he didn't get her to agree until a week prior to her visit. He barely, if at all, remembers those texts when they were shown to him. I suppose their times have to be right because they came as pics from the phone, not from Jodi or Ryan's texting service.

Her Helios are so suspicious to me because that particular one only had 43 messages on it. I wonder if a Helio really automatically deleted messages....I doubt it.

 

[wasnt_me]

People looking to review Melendez testimony in print can start on WS page 9 in the transcript area:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...media-timeline-thread-**no-discussion**/page9

 

[peedoffinny]

Was Travis expecting her? And, preplanning. From her journal (all these entries are available on Juror 13’s website; I’m paraphrasing and shortening most).


May 27. Ryan texted me. It’s been a week. Was getting worried he wasn’t really interested. Will definitely go visit him in Utah, next week or the week after, depending on budget. Will visit him and go to LA to photograph Laura’s new baby, still have to call her about that. I can go because I have off from Casa Ramos on Tues Wednesday and Thursday. Tonight was my first night working there.

May 30. Am definitely going to Utah next week. Two whole days with Ryan! Time off and budget works for me to go.

June 1. Adding Darryl and Matt to my itinerary, maybe John Dixon too. Great guy tho not a church member and talks big…like telling me my art can hang next to Monet.

Told Travis about road trip, but am trying to keep seeing Ryan a secret from Travis, because he gets so upset and jealous. T mentioned in a Gchat that he still had feelings for me everyday. Surprised me. I Just don’t want him to feel lonely. But he says he’s found the One.

Made the mistake of telling him about Dixon back in, well, August or September. He was so upset. But I wasn’t cheating on him when I was interested in Dixon, because we weren’t dating then or bf/gf. He made me tell him about Dixon. He told me I had hurt him more than he’d been hurt by the death of his father, which I believe. “Heavy.” I love him, we’re just different.

Maybe Travis will hear about Ryan through the grapevine, which might be good for him because it will “give him incentive…to getting his marriage on,” no more messing around or getting naughty with me or whoever else he’s been “doing his thing with.”

He did begin to sweet talk/guilt trip me into going to AZ instead of Utah. I almost relented, but then stayed strong. He was hurt and upset but I “gently declined, gently refused," I could tell he was still bothered. Persuaded him it was OK by reminding him he was coming here soon, and of all the things we planned to do here. He eventually said Ok, whatever.

June 2-3.

Left early, from Yreka (…..) napped at my brother’s til 2pm, then left at 3-3:30 “or something.”

(……) had breakfast with Darryl, hung out a little, ran errands- bank, then went back to Matt’s house, took nap and shower, then to Walmart , Ross, to get nails done for Utah but the wait was too long. Was supposed to see Gus the day before but had to sleep in mickey D parking lot, even after my nap at Carl’s.

I waited around in Pasadena, “killed time “ waiting for Laura to call, but she didn’t.

Note: She made no mention of ever calling Travis or speaking with Travis after June 1. This is her story before her arrest, obviously. Will post related post-arrest interrogation excerpts shortly. I can understand why she refused to answer EF's repeated questions about when she decided to go to Mesa and whether or not Travis was expecting her. She had a lot of lies to sort through and get straight.

Remember the guy Paul Stern who loaned JA money? According to him, it was the day before she left and she was in a panic because Travis was seeing other women. This certainly doesn't match her diary at all, especially her budget comment on May 30.
[video=youtube;sLUizc-cklg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLUizc-cklg[/video]

 

[Val1]

People looking to review Melendez testimony in print can start on WS page 9 in the transcript area:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...media-timeline-thread-**no-discussion**/page9

Thanks, I'd just refound that myself(can't find my own post where I had everything laid out with links and quotes!) to reply to this latest rehash... My whole issue is that all the sex pics were from unallocated spaces and as Det.M said as per this post:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...hread-**no-discussion**&p=8722903#post8722903

"Unallocated clusters - unable to locate a date and time."

That's where I first started with my belief that sex had nothing to do with this murder.

 

[wasnt_me]

According to Heather Connor's testimony on day 2, in the washer and dryer were ample clothes for travis to have put on and worn June 3rd and 4th.

Dryer--along with the bedding was a large pair of sweat pants.

Washer--

towel
socks
bleached t shirt med
another tee shirt dark
white tee shirt large
mens shorts
sweat pants mens large
white underwear

If there's no size, she didn't give a size.

 

[EquallyDivided]

This just shows how nuts and evil she really is. What a treacherous, vile .




Transcription of Arias' email to Travis on June 7, 2008 - 3 days after she killed him:

"Hey You…

I haven’t heard back from you. I hope you’re not still upset that I didn’t come to see you, I just didn’t have enough time off. It’s ok, sweetie, you’re going to be here in less than two weeks – we’re going to see the sights, check things off “The List,” and all kinds of fun things. Oregon is BEAUTIFUL this time of the year. Yaaay!..... be happy!

Anyway I wanted to let you know that I’m thinking about pushing my visit up to next week, but it depends on my budget, so I’m not for sure yet. I know you’ll be in Cancun, but I’ll probably crash at your house in your cozy bed anyway… eat some of your oatmeal and frozen dinners you know, the usual – jk I know you said the door is always open, but I wanted to give you a heads up. If for any reason that won’t work, let me know and I’ll make arrangements. Your house has always been my second home, although it’s a bit more lonely without Naps around. You’re probably in California right now, but wherever you are, get a hold of me, at least before you get to Mexico.

Thanks hon, -Jodi "

Eat some of his "yummy oatmeal and frozen dinners" (sorry, unable to bold that portion). I guess this was her way of making a point (to inestigators that she knew would read this) that she knew the weight-loss plan he was using to trim down. It very much fits her pattern of showing how familiar she was with Travis' daily life or intimate knowledge.

IMO, the preponderence of the evidence suggests that they were intimate that day. I do fully believe that JM'S book will enlighten all of us, and detail many points that are currently fuzzy.

I enjoyed reading the transcripts of the DF interview, taking out the theatrical diversionary tactics really helped me to see a much clearer picture!



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[wasnt_me]

Thanks, I'd just refound that myself(can't find my own post where I had everything laid out with links and quotes!) to reply to this latest rehash... My whole issue is that all the sex pics were from unallocated spaces and as Det.M said as per this post:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...hread-**no-discussion**&p=8722903#post8722903

"Unallocated clusters - unable to locate a date and time."

That's where I first started with my belief that sex had nothing to do with this murder.

I understand that seeming troubling, but it really isn't. If the metadata from most of them, save two, hadn't been overwritten, and there's KY jelly in the exact same location of a picture with metadata still intact as one with deleted metadata, then it becomes apparent that they are from the same time period.

1:42.53pm a pic of Jodi's leaning back (face barely shown)
1:44pm--a pic of Jodi's behind in the air.
1:44.50pm-a pic of Travis with KY.
1:47:15pm--Travis with KY and peace sign

Meta data deleted--Jodi on bed with KY beside her in the exact same spot as it was in Travis' pics.
Her vagina shot, I can't tell if that has metadata on it.

I'm gonna assume those two came before 1:42 since their metadata might be deleted already. It seems that Travis took pics first of her, and then she took them of him. This is more logical for me than believing some involved process that Jodi undertook to somehow make a camera put the wrong metadata on the other ones, especially when there's no motive or need to do it right then and there.

I personally believe she bought KY at the CVS. She always claimed she had to buy it, so she made sure to pick it up.

I also am starting to think that white thing at the end of her braid is a tassel from the pillows and it somehow got ripped off in the right along with her hair and that's how her hair got in the bathroom with the threads meshed with them. Looks like she had one black thing on one braid, which could be a rubber band. I don't know.

Remember the guy Paul Stern who loaned JA money? According to him, it was the day before she left and she was in a panic because Travis was seeing other women. This certainly doesn't match her diary at all, especially her budget comment on May 30.

I have to watch it again, but I think he was getting his years confused. She was in a panic about that in both June 2007 and apparently it was still a problem for her in June 2008. I was thinking he gave her money to help her move. I don't believe Travis or her parents did it. So how did she afford to move?

I think I concluded that because he was a customer at one of those hotels she'd stay at and work at, and she was at one of them in June 2007 when Travis broke up with her for snooping through his stuff again and possibly pushing too hard for marriage because she needed somewhere to live. (my view of the breakup.)

 

[Val1]

I understand that seeming troubling, but it really isn't. If the metadata from most of them, save two, hadn't been overwritten, and there's KY jelly in the exact same location of a picture with metadata still intact as one with deleted metadata, then it becomes apparent that they are from the same time period.

1:42.53pm a pic of Jodi's leaning back (face barely shown)
1:44pm--a pic of Jodi's behind in the air.
1:44.50pm-a pic of Travis with KY.
1:47:15pm--Travis with KY and peace sign

Meta data deleted--Jodi on bed with KY beside her in the exact same spot as it was in Travis' pics.
Her vagina shot, I can't tell if that has metadata on it.

I'm gonna assume those two came before 1:42 since their metadata might be deleted already. It seems that Travis took pics first of her, and then she took them of him. This is more logical for me than believing some involved process that Jodi undertook to somehow make a camera put the wrong metadata on the other ones, especially when there's no motive or need to do it right then and there.

I personally believe she bought KY at the CVS. She always claimed she had to buy it, so she made sure to pick it up.

I also am starting to think that white thing at the end of her braid is a tassel from the pillows and it somehow got ripped off in the right along with her hair and that's how her hair got in the bathroom with the threads meshed with them. Looks like she had one black thing on one braid, which could be a rubber band. I don't know.



I have to watch it again, but I think he was getting his years confused. She was in a panic about that in both June 2007 and apparently it was still a problem for her in June 2008. I was thinking he gave her money to help her move. I don't believe Travis or her parents did it. So how did she afford to move?

I think I concluded that because he was a customer at one of those hotels she'd stay at and work at, and she was at one of them in June 2007 when Travis broke up with her for snooping through his stuff again and possibly pushing too hard for marriage because she needed somewhere to live. (my view of the breakup.)

Could you please show me where you got that info? I've listened to the testimony so many times and I keep coming back to Det.M. saying that Images #164-169(allthe nude pics) were recovered from the unallocated space.

 

[Val1]

I understand that seeming troubling, but it really isn't. If the metadata from most of them, save two, hadn't been overwritten, and there's KY jelly in the exact same location of a picture with metadata still intact as one with deleted metadata, then it becomes apparent that they are from the same time period.

1:42.53pm a pic of Jodi's leaning back (face barely shown)
1:44pm--a pic of Jodi's behind in the air.
1:44.50pm-a pic of Travis with KY.
1:47:15pm--Travis with KY and peace sign

Meta data deleted--Jodi on bed with KY beside her in the exact same spot as it was in Travis' pics.
Her vagina shot, I can't tell if that has metadata on it.

I'm gonna assume those two came before 1:42 since their metadata might be deleted already. It seems that Travis took pics first of her, and then she took them of him. This is more logical for me than believing some involved process that Jodi undertook to somehow make a camera put the wrong metadata on the other ones, especially when there's no motive or need to do it right then and there.

I personally believe she bought KY at the CVS. She always claimed she had to buy it, so she made sure to pick it up.

I also am starting to think that white thing at the end of her braid is a tassel from the pillows and it somehow got ripped off in the right along with her hair and that's how her hair got in the bathroom with the threads meshed with them. Looks like she had one black thing on one braid, which could be a rubber band. I don't know.



I have to watch it again, but I think he was getting his years confused. She was in a panic about that in both June 2007 and apparently it was still a problem for her in June 2008. I was thinking he gave her money to help her move. I don't believe Travis or her parents did it. So how did she afford to move?

I think I concluded that because he was a customer at one of those hotels she'd stay at and work at, and she was at one of them in June 2007 when Travis broke up with her for snooping through his stuff again and possibly pushing too hard for marriage because she needed somewhere to live. (my view of the breakup.)

Could you please show me where you got that info? I've listened to the testimony so many times and I keep coming back to Det.M. saying that Images #164-169(allthe nude pics) were recovered from the unallocated space.

Edit: Also, that would explain why the time difference if she had been hiding either in the office or in his car in the garage figuring out his camera and finding a card that would work in it while waiting for the coast to be clear/hear him in the shower. Would explain the 1:44 time thing too.

 

[b_lab7410]

There is one mistake I think many of us keep making. We believe that messages marked from Travis were really from Travis. Given that Juan proved on the stand that she could have been the one sending some of the messages that were attributed to Travis, how can we not believe that it is quite possible that she sent many of them, especially the ones that seem so off from his character and regular speech patterns?

I for one am reserving my opinion until I read Juan's book.

I have known two people in my life that were devious multi-planners and that peppered some truths in with their lies. JA reminded me of both of them early on.

These people, unlike most of us who have a plan "A" and a backup plan B, these types have plans A thru Z. Like JA, neither one of them did anything good with their lives and were experts at ducking responsibilities. Both of them tried to be sex pots too!

Sorry to hear that, ICit, hope you didn't know those two for any lengthy duration of time. I'm personally convinced that pathological liars ARE psychotic and narcissist. If not during that period, in the transition stages/learning phases (adapting their plans, learning from environmental responses, mistakes, bodily triggers, etc etc).