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A quick question that I should probably already know the answer to - but alas, I don't.

The 'garrote', i.e. the broken paintbrush stick - was it actually used in the strangulation itself - employed to tighten the cord? Or was it just used as part of the staging?
 
Serenity - it really saddens me that every day of life was just horrible for you because of your son's propensity for violence and that you had to exclude yourself from the world in order to manage him. I can not imagine. Can you share with us how he is doing now? Is there any good news for you?

He is an adult now and works in a profession that allows him to use his "unique" interests and talents. They are celebrated, in fact. He is currently out of the country and will be for about another year.

He is still the same as always but now he has an outlet for it. When he comes to visit, we don't sleep. We go back to locking ourselves and our pets into our master bedroom at night. When he's away, we get a lot more rest.

This is the longest he'll have ever been away so I don't know yet what it will be like when he gets back to the states but for now, we feel relieved.

He still struggles to maintain relationships but he has learned to say, "I love you too," and to return a hug when one is offered. We worked for years on getting those things instilled in him. If he's going to be a part of society, he has to pass himself off as being a part of it. It's not easy for him but he does it because in the end, it pays off.


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He is still the same as always but now he has an outlet for it. When he comes to visit, we don't sleep. We go back to locking ourselves and our pets into our master bedroom at night. When he's away, we get a lot more rest.

OMG. You poor thing. My heart goes out to you. I hope things work out for you and your son.
 
Hi AndHence, here is an exchange about when JR unloaded the camera, (per LE request for photos of the 12/23 party), in the early hours of 12/26, per JR 6/98 interview.

5 LOU SMIT: That's kind of
6 coincidental, isn't it, to have a
7 picture --
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it is.
9 You think this came off my camera or
10 you're not sure?
11 MIKE KANE: I am pretty sure it
12 came off your camera.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: They asked if we had
14 any pictures of the Christmas party and I
15 literally -- well, it's possible, because we
16 had an unusual, an uncompleted roll of film in
17 the camera and I think I clicked off some
18 pictures fairly quickly just to finish up the
19 roll, handed it to the policeman, one of the
20 uniform fellows that was there, and they took it
21 to get developed.
22 LOU SMIT: Okay. So this
23 picture here with the pad --
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Could have
25 been when I was just burning up pictures.
0512
1 LOU SMIT: At the scene?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
3 LOU SMIT: That morning?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
5 LOU SMIT: So it could have been
6 taken just shortly before?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, it's
8 possible. That I think I remember they wanted
9 pictures of the party and I said yeah, we got
10 'em, there was wasn't complete.
11 LOU SMIT: So then that would
12 show the pad in its spot that morning?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
14 LOU SMIT: Prior to you giving it
15 to the police officer?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
17 LOU SMIT: That explains that then.
18 BRYAN MORGAN: If that's what --
19 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
20 BRYAN MORGAN: I think when did you
21 do that?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty early on.
23 I mean, I think we very early on were concerned
24 about the cleaning lady and the fact that she,
25 you know, asked to borrow money and called Patsy
0513
1 all upset and had a big fight with her sister
2 the day before. I mean this was just kind of
3 like coming out, I didn't know about it, and you
4 know, Officer French was there, we very quickly
5 focused on the cleaning lady. I think they had
6 a wire tap put in place, they got hold of the
7 police in wherever she lives, Lafayette or
8 something like that, and they got involved.
9 So I think they wanted pictures of
10 the party because I think she was -- she was at
11 that 23rd party. Is I think the reason why they
12 wanted that roll of film. As well as they had
13 pictures of JonBenet on it. I don't remember if
14 that was the reason or not, but...
15 LOU SMIT: So then when this
16 photograph was taken you think you clicked
17 some off?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 LOU SMIT: That's why it
20 shows the pad there and then later you
21 gave the pad to the officer?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
23 LOU SMIT: Now it's a short time
24 later then that these photographs are taken and
25 trying to figure out why they would have moved
0514
1 the bag?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there is
3 something else laying there too.
4 LOU SMIT: So that's a
5 question we have to answer.
6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I don't know.
7 There is no reason I would have moved it.
8 LOU SMIT: So that wouldn't
9 have been three days prior that this thing
10 was taken, but it could have just been
11 taken hours prior--
12 JOHN RAMSEY: It could have been
13 that morning. Yeah, it could have been.
14 BRYAN MORGAN: Could I see the
15 photograph? Lou, is there any way to tell where
16 in the sequence of the roll it was taken?
17 LOU SMIT: On the roll of John --
18 I am sure there is. I am sure the negatives
19 would be available.
20 VOICE: (INAUDIBLE).
21 LOU SMIT: That would show what
22 number, that's absolutely true. Now if you
23 remember doing that?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: I do, I think I did
25 it, because I had to finish the roll up to get
0515
1 it out of the camera.
2 LOU SMIT: Makes sense.
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Because it was
4 one of those electric rewinds and all that.
5 MIKE KANE: What kind of camera
6 was it?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I -- it's a --
8 well, I am stretching if I try and remember. We
9 got a new camera, but I think that was after --
10 after that.
11 VOICE: But it had an auto winder?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I am pretty
13 sure it did. Yeah, I am sure it rewound or --
14 it was one of those cartridge (INAUDIBLE).

Thanks for this. If John took those photos on the 26th in order to give the film to investigators, that's more innocuous. However, it's a mystery why certain objects were moved in the small time between his photos and the crime scene photos.
 
I agree.

I believe John was more involved. I believe either BDI and/or JDI. I stated long ago that I believe John set up Patsy. Before the BDI came to light (GJ indictments of JR and PR) and a third un-named person obviously Burke alot felt PR all the way. I believe John was JonBenet's abuser all along. Burke hit her with the flashlight and John strangled her implicating Patsy. I think John threw Patsy under the bus. Knowing Patsy's personality and over-the-top -ness John knew Patsy would look like the guilty one. John was the main controller and manipulator imho. And it worked most believed it was/is Patsy. I believe Patsy was in shock and insurmountable grief. I believe John dictated the ransom novel to her to write. John was holding all the cards and pulling Patsy along on puppet strings.

I believe JR also kept Patsy heavily medicated and dictated her script on CNN, too. She certainly seemed guilty, but JR was feeding her all her words, too, imho.

Imho JR is a master at controlling everything and everyone. Patsy seemed to be the one calling all the shots, but I believe she was just a fragile, scared, unhealthy person who thought she needed the security she felt JR gave her.

(I feel JR was even behind Patsy's comment to her parents about not seeing their grandchild even though she was not yet pregnant IF THEY did not give JR money to start his business. She was his puppet all along.) MOO.

Corey, I agree with you there are some things about JR’s behavior which indicate considerable talent in manipulating and controlling the aftermath. I try not to draw any conclusions beyond observing the manner in which JR has led others to certain conclusions.

From Kolar’s book and from BR’s TV interview, it is simple to believe BR did it all, except for the crime scene clean-up and RN; though like others I’ve always had questions about what happened after the head blow. (Did someone in the family bring a pillow down for her, e.g. , what is it doing on the kitchen counter in the photos taken after the 911 report?)

Whether JR was a ‘master liar/manipulator’ has been a question which has really not been evaluated very well. To rephrase this: Was JR an innocent victim in the development of the RN and the crime scene clean-up, until he purportedly joined the cover-up at 11:00 am that morning when he stated he found JB. Even Douglas only minimally glanced at the idea JR was a master liar, or as he stated, “If he was, he was one of the best.” For me the answer lies in his statements. It’s just an impression that he seems to know how to lead people he considers of inferior intellect to the conclusion he wants them to have, a little a la Hansel and Gretel dropping bread crumbs, only these are perplexing comments he has dropped.

-On June 6, 1997, three months into his work on the case, Smit did his daily drive to the Ramsey house to sit and think. This time, though, he bumped into the Ramseys themselves, who were staying with nearby neighbors.

“Smit and the couple waved to one another, and both parties pulled over. After some chatting, John asked Smit if he would pray with them. Smit suggested they do it inside his van. Smit said Ramsey's prayer was to the point: ‘I pray that someday this nightmare will end and we will find the killer of our daughter.’ Smit then wrote up a report of the encounter.”

-Another situation was described by Hodges who wrote about JR’s ascent in Access Graphics. Paraphrasing a bit - Of the three companies, John brought the fewest clients to the merger and was originally named vice president of sales. Shortly into the venture, John and the other ”junior” person in a two-on-one power play moved the older man aside. Then is a follow-up maneuver, equally as slick, John arranged for his contemporary to be scapegoated as the ruthless one for moving the “old bull” out of the way—while John gained support from the rest of the company’s power structure. John Ramsey was named company president in 1991.

-JR tells Gary Mann in his book DOI that he did not see it coming his job would end. From some Boulder comments of long ago, allegedly several employees at Access Graphics claimed that it was well-known within the company that JR would not have a job after January 1, 1997. This is before JB’s death. In fact in the spring of 1996 the “old bull” described in the situation of JR’s ascent in AG was brought back by LM to handle the European and Canadian territories of AG.

And at the time of the crime there were plenty of instances of leading people to reach certain conclusions.

- A broken window. JR leads FW to view, note and, he may hope, tell the detectives. A second party disclosure gives more credibility.

- When his older kids showed up at the home, whatever he said had to have led JAR to conclude the perpetrator should be forgiven. One assumes he hinted that the underage male in the home had done something.

- To Detective Arndt he states, “It was an inside job” when he places JB on the floor. If he is wanting to point to someone on the inside, it is handy to consider this person had a key and may have needed money. The detectives followed these suggestions to the housekeeper’s door.

-That night at the F home, JR is heard saying, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. When asked why, he said because he didn’t protect JB. JR leads his friends to know that he felt terrible he did not protect JB. However, usually people don’t apologize in immediate aftermath of a home invasion and killing as to what they didn’t do. They are angry at a killer. Or terrified. Who knows what impression his friends had of this apology.

And I can only draw the most obvious conclusion that JR wants those personally close to him, like Rev. Holverstock and his older kids, to grasp the underage male was involved. Yet with the authorities he seems to help build suspicion towards Santa, the housekeeper, folks like JM, a disgruntled employee.

My takeaway is that JR was pretty good at manipulative deception. Way before he purportedly ‘discovered JB’ at 11:00 am, he has mentally calculated how to use a broken window, a suitcase, the housekeeper’s knowledge of the home, etc., to his advantage. As I said, just my impression.
 
A quick question that I should probably already know the answer to - but alas, I don't.

The 'garrote', i.e. the broken paintbrush stick - was it actually used in the strangulation itself - employed to tighten the cord? Or was it just used as part of the staging?
This will probably always be a question that has no answer, imo.

However, the ligature strangulation would not have required the broken paintbrush. jmo
 
-JR tells Gary Mann in his book DOI that he did not see it coming his job would end. From some Boulder comments of long ago, allegedly several employees at Access Graphics claimed that it was well-known within the company that JR would not have a job after January 1, 1997. This is before JB’s death.
.

And throwing almost everyone who worked at the company 'under the bus' wouldn't have helped JR's popularity.
 
-JR tells Gary Mann in his book DOI that he did not see it coming his job would end. From some Boulder comments of long ago, allegedly several employees at Access Graphics claimed that it was well-known within the company that JR would not have a job after January 1, 1997. This is before JB’s death. In fact in the spring of 1996 the “old bull” described in the situation of JR’s ascent in AG was brought back by LM to handle the European and Canadian territories of AG.


Just as a footnote….. This would make it even stranger that on Jan. 1, 1997 an American Girl doll was ordered by and shipped to JonBenet Ramsey at Access Graphics.
 
Just as a footnote….. This would make it even stranger that on Jan. 1, 1997 an American Girl doll was ordered by and shipped to JonBenet Ramsey at Access Graphics.

JonBenet ordered an American Girl doll 6-7 days after she was killed? That is strange.
 
I assume you are referring to this video?

[video=youtube;kOfATfILHys]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOfATfILHys[/video]


This always pisses me off. They were refusing to cooperate and be interviewed by the police in order to find out who/how/why their daughter was killed and instead they do a TV publicity stunt to elicit sympathy. That scripted BS coming out of Patsy's mouth, considering how they didn't seem to give a **** about Burke's safety sending him off to the White's (because there was no psycho pedo-killer on the loose and they knew it) just always makes my blood boil. Seeing JR mouth the words he and Patsy rehearsed beforehand just makes it all the more obvious that it's a facade, damage control not a heartfelt plea.
 
JonBenet ordered an American Girl doll 6-7 days after she was killed? That is strange.


Truly.

More info at FFJ:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...l-in-the-Name-of-JonBenet-on-January-1st-1997

Many follow-up questions suggest themselves. Right now I'm struck again by the timing, not only a week after JBR's death, but also in terms of JR's rumored ousting from AG on the same day as the order.

This ties in with JR's powers of deception/manipulation but will not, I hope, distract from qft's excellent and more comprehensive post at #1285.
 
The question I'd like answered here is what it would take to close this case if LE concludes BDI. We all know that when this crime happened Burke was just shy of 10 years old and thus couldn't be charged. I would think in the case of a minor committing a crime, that LE would come to agreement with the parents that the child had in fact committed the crime and that appropriate counselling/therapy would be provided. Then the case would be closed. In this case it is now 20 years later and the case is high profile. To close the case with no charges and no public explanation would draw huge suspicion, primarily towards Burke. I would assume that in Boulder the laws regarding minors is similar to what it is in Canada in that their names are protected and are not allowed to be published, and that their records are cleared once they reach adulthood? So closing the case as BDI would likely violate Burke's rights as a minor, as it would be quite obvious what had happened.

It makes me wonder if this case wasn't solved in the early stages but because the case was so high profile, there was simply no way to close it AND protect Burke's rights as a minor?

They may one day "close" the case, but it will be nothing more than a technicality and semantics.

No one will ever be charged in this case.

No persons will ever be officially named as the perpetrators by anyone in any official capacity. Ever.

Each subsequent DA, including the current one, will gladly enjoy the headlines and publicity the case may bring them, and will play along for their own benefit.

Every 5-10 years public interest will increase with the "anniversary", but never again as large as this 20th.

Which of you is bringing refreshments for the 2021 reunion?
 
They may one day "close" the case, but it will be nothing more than a technicality and semantics.

No one will ever be charged in this case.

No persons will ever be officially named as the perpetrators by anyone in any official capacity. Ever.

Each subsequent DA, including the current one, will gladly enjoy the headlines and publicity the case may bring them, and will play along for their own benefit.

Every 5-10 years public interest will increase with the "anniversary", but never again as large as this 20th.

Which of you is bringing refreshments for the 2021 reunion?
BBM

They can just "close" an unsolved homicide case in the state of Colorado when nobody has ever been charged? This would be like nothing I've ever heard before.

HarmonyE. - what say you?
 
BBM

They can just "close" an unsolved homicide case in the state of Colorado when nobody has ever been charged? This would be like nothing I've ever heard before.

HarmonyE. - what say you?
There is no statute of limitations for murder, so the case isn't going to be closed as in "shut down forever, evidence tossed out". It's a cold case and I'm sure its not actively worked on, but this could change if there is new evidence that needs to be investigated.

I am inclined to agree that no one will ever be arrested, although I do think someday there will be more consensus regarding what happened. As we get further away in time from the crime, the Ramseys' story looks more and more nonsensical. Heck, we may even find out the truth if a certain someone who was in the house that night decides to come clean someday. Not holding my breath because it can't be a secret if you tell someone, but you never know.
 
-JR tells Gary Mann in his book DOI that he did not see it coming his job would end. From some Boulder comments of long ago, allegedly several employees at Access Graphics claimed that it was well-known within the company that JR would not have a job after January 1, 1997. This is before JB’s death. In fact in the spring of 1996 the “old bull” described in the situation of JR’s ascent in AG was brought back by LM to handle the European and Canadian territories of AG.
Great post, particularly about JR's manipulations, but I wanted to clarify something. Did you mean he knew he wouldn't have a job after January 1, 1998?
According to a Nov. 1997 article:
Ramsey - who has received national attention because of the murder of his daughter, JonBenet Ramsey, in Boulder last December - moved to Atlanta this past summer. He will be leaving Access at the close of the transaction, which is expected to be some time before the end of the year, said Laurie Wagner, vice president of corporate business development for Access.

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/11/04-1.html
The article says it was due to a trade with GE, which I assume would not have come suddenly and unexpectedly. And the article points out that it's expected for a change in management to accompany a change in ownership, so again, he shouldn't have been surprised. It wasn't John's first rodeo.
 
OMG. You poor thing. My heart goes out to you. I hope things work out for you and your son.

Well, he's almost 21 now so we'll know how permanent it'll be sometime between 25-27 so we're getting closer! Plus he's out of the country for the next year so that's definitely a load off.

It sucks to fee this way about one's own child but it is the reality of it. I love him with my entire being so as you can imagine, sometimes my feelings seem to complex to overcome. Therapy for 20+ years has definitely helped.

But when my son was BR's age when JB died, I was still somewhat in denial
about the reality. I imagine most families are. So I could see how JR being gone a lot on business probably kept him in the dark and my theory is that PR used the pageants as a way to keep herself and JB away from BR. It's easier to pretend it's not happening if you are around the child as little as possible.


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Great post, particularly about JR's manipulations, but I wanted to clarify something. Did you mean he knew he wouldn't have a job after January 1, 1998?
According to a Nov. 1997 article:

The article says it was due to a trade with GE, which I assume would not have come suddenly and unexpectedly. And the article points out that it's expected for a change in management to accompany a change in ownership, so again, he shouldn't have been surprised. It wasn't John's first rodeo.

Yes, I agree, it is routine to see executives shift in a company sale, though in this case the only two who were not retained were DP and JR. I'm sure that JR had to know his position might come to an end, but I'll bring up some other thoughts in regard to his employment.

LM was talking about divestiture of their subsidiaries in the spring of 1996. It isn’t verifiable that LM was looking to allow JR to ‘move on’ to another venture sometime in 1997, but this was the word which FFJ poster Zapata received in Boulder. The link is to a post from back in 2003. http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?3699-Ramseys-Flee-Atlanta&p=44120#post44120 Post #8 (There’s one inaccuracy in it, but it would take a bit to explain, and I’m not sure it’s substantial enough to go into detail here.)

Patsy moved to Charlevoix with BR right at the end of the Boulder school year. JR most likely was back and forth between Boulder and Charlevoix or Atlanta until they purchased a home in Atlanta in late summer of ’97. I’ve seen another article in which JR touts that he’s going to be a consultant to LM on behalf of AG, but I believe that to be a public relations pose. Whether LM kept him on the payroll after JR’s physical relocation, IDK, but he wasn’t carrying out the duties of the President of AG, most likely from onwards of the summer of ’97.

It’s known that in a company sale, the books are combed through in detail by buyers. My opinion, speculation here, is that LM was beginning to look into JR’s performance more deeply after ethics questions were reported to LM (http://www.acandyrose.com/s-mike-glynn.htm ), and after CFO C had to inform JR that the Atlanta office (which had Patsy’s entire family on the payroll) was being viewed as undisguised nepotism. There were some other questionable business practices I won’t go into, but these improprieties have led me to believe there may have been some reasons for JR to be under additional stress regards his position with the company.

If LM were seeing some issues with their 'star' AG Pres., it's my hunch JR knew before JB's death, that he might be cut loose sooner than the AG sale date. And this is pointed out in Zapata's post. As you say :), it wasn't his first rodeo.
 
BBM

They can just "close" an unsolved homicide case in the state of Colorado when nobody has ever been charged? This would be like nothing I've ever heard before.

HarmonyE. - what say you?

IMO the case has already been solved. It can't be closed because the media would want answers, answers that can't be given without infringing upon the rights of a (then) minor. So the case will remain unsolved and open until all parties are dead and gone.


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Oh! yes ditto. My word. I said earlier that BKY boy was probably molesting her. Could that be the blood? the fact that she had to give in to his will? She was probably used to it. It could be used in both ways. If I can do this...you can do that! Could it be that mommy dearest came down on this "picture" and straight away grabbed and yanked JB for her own sake and THEN SEND THE BROTHER UP TO BED..BUT THERE IS STILL THE TAPE WHERE HE ASKS A QUESTION:shame: So momma knew this will be coming to light coz the school nurse might not have been so stupid? THIS WAS A HUGE ACCIDENT AND WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN TO THE R'S. How can someone be so coldhearted? Or rather - it must have been traumatizing for who ever was the leading adult factor. Maybe one day B key will ask an amount of money to give his own details about that night. My children can remember LONG AGO very well:thinking:
 
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