Burke Ramsey Files 750 Million Dollar Lawsuit Against CBS

[Heyits_tay04]

I know what circumstantial evidence is. My hobby is true crime and has been for over 30 years.

I also know you cannot have a plea bargain without the defendant admitting to a crime. Thereby lies the problem.

I don't honestly think that using initials instead of the actual name of the R's son would have fooled anyone.

This is assuming BR is guilty of course.

And in any case what exactly would have been the point in going to trial, or even plea bargaining anyway? The Ramseys did not murder anyone or even hurt their daughter that night. They were simply trying to save their son.

It wasn't as if they were hardened criminals who deserved to be severely punished, as some people (on other forums) seem to think.

They still needed to be tried for their involvement regardless of the "reason"


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[kanzz]

https://soundcloud.com/freespeechbroadcasting/hour-2-010817

@44:25
LW mentions news article, 'JonBenet Inc.':

http://www.acandyrose.com/02002000NEWS-jonbenet-inc.htm

Amounts of money that various media entities had made on JBR case:

LW: I supect now, 20 years later, that the amount of money that has been made by the media off of the tradgedy of this family is probably approaching a trillion dollars.
It could be more.

Lots of good stuff, Tadpole12.. Thanks!

from the link, this was good:

Dan Abrams, NBC News's legal correspondent, defends the media's coverage of the JonBenét murder case. Not only are unsolved murders fascinating in and of themselves, Abrams argues, but the Ramsey case includes substantive legal issues, most notably how a crime scene that is not immediately secured -- as in this case -- can forever taint an investigation. "There are intricacies of the legal system that can be learned" from this case, Abrams says. "I think there is a legitimate argument that the public has learned something from the coverage of JonBenét's murder."

 

[BoldBear]

There is no evidence that JBR was violated sexually. The autopsy report states that 'foreign bifringement material', i.e. microscopic pieces of wood, was found in her vagina and that could have been the result of the wiping. I understand there were tiny fragments of (whittled) paintbrush handle lying around on the floor of the basement.

JBR would not have had anything sexual done to her without her making a fuss. I believe Patsy had not gone to bed that night but was busy packing for the trip the next day. Don't you not think she would have heard something if her daughter was being 'violated'?

Most of us have been over the autopsy reports, read the reports from some of the experts and have had long discussions here about the possibility of sexual abuse. You left out details from the autopsy. If you want to believe there was no evidence that JBR was violated sexually, that's fine. I disagree with that statement. There is evidence that she could have been sexually abused. I don't want to go back, reread and rehash the old arguments. I'm not going to do that, but your statement is not accurate.

I don't know how you can say that "JBR would not have had anything sexual done to her without her making a fuss." There is no way you could KNOW that. You don't know what she would or wouldn't have done. You also just implied that Patsy was up all night and would have heard something. If Patsy was up all night wouldn't she have heard her child being murdered? Patsy said she was asleep and didn't hear anything.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Most of us have been over the autopsy reports, read the reports from some of the experts and have had long discussions here about the possibility of sexual abuse. You left out details from the autopsy. If you want to believe there was no evidence that JBR was violated sexually, that's fine. I disagree with that statement. There is evidence that she could have been sexually abused. I don't want to go back, reread and rehash the old arguments. I'm not going to do that, but your statement is not accurate.

I don't know how you can say that "JBR would not have had anything sexual done to her without her making a fuss." There is no way you could KNOW that. You don't know what she would or wouldn't have done. You also just implied that Patsy was up all night and would have heard something. If Patsy was up all night wouldn't she have heard her child being murdered? Patsy said she was asleep and didn't hear anything.

Yes, that's right "Patsy said". We must always believe what Patsy said.

I only quoted a few words from the autopsy report so yes, obviously I left a lot out.

We should remember that the autopsy report stands as it is, and cannot be added to. Nothing beyond the four corners of that report can be stated as fact. People writing books or posting on forums have their own theories and most have their own interpretations of what Dr. Meyer 'meant' by his observations.

If you have read something within that autopsy report that I have missed, regarding definite evidence of sexual abuse from that night, then please point it out to me and I will apologize.

As for my saying that JBR would not have had anything sexual done to her without making a fuss, I stand by that. We are talking about what happened Christmas night.

You ask me how I would know that. I am now asking you - how would you know she wouldn't have made a fuss?

However, as neither of us know the answer, then I think we will have to agree to disagree.

If you are going to say she was too terrified to make a sound because somebody was holding a knife, then that is ridiculous imo.

 

[Annapurna]

Yes, that's right "Patsy said". We must always believe what Patsy said.

I only quoted a few words from the autopsy report so yes, obviously I left a lot out.

We should remember that the autopsy report stands as it is, and cannot be added to. Nothing beyond the four corners of that report can be stated as fact. People writing books or posting on forums have their own theories and most have their own interpretations of what Dr. Meyer 'meant' by his observations.

If you have read something within that autopsy report that I have missed, regarding definite evidence of sexual abuse from that night, then please point it out to me and I will apologize.

As for my saying that JBR would not have had anything sexual done to her without making a fuss, I stand by that. We are talking about what happened Christmas night.

You ask me how I would know that. I am now asking you - how would you know she wouldn't have made a fuss?

However, as neither of us know the answer, then I think we will have to agree to disagree.

If you are going to say she was too terrified to make a sound because somebody was holding a knife, then that is ridiculous imo.

That first part isn't entirely true. Dr. Myers called in a group of experts to examine the evidence he collected to determine whether there was evidence of sexual abuse. They concluded that she had been abused, both chronically and acutely (aka before and that night). So we're not simply relying on what Myer said, he called in people who are experts on child abuse, not just pathologists. I think that carries more weight than his word alone (or the ever so easy dismissal of the idea from Dr. Spitz et al on the cbs special).

I believe Kolar went into this info about the committee, though I might be mistaken. I will find a source once I'm out of work unless someone beats me to it.

Out of curiosity, how do you think the injury and the bleeding occurred if not abuse? She didn't break her hymen wiping. I doubt she just so happened to make herself bleed on the same night she just happened to be murdered, in the giant clean panties she just happened to have on that night. Suggesting she did it to herself seems like a cop out. Like "I can't explain it so it didn't happen and if it did she did it" is how it comes across to me.


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[HarmonyE.]

Out of curiosity, how do you think the injury and the bleeding occurred if not abuse? She didn't break her hymen wiping. I doubt she just so happened to make herself bleed on the same night she just happened to be murdered, in the giant clean panties she just happened to have on that night. Suggesting she did it to herself seems like a cop out. Like "I can't explain it so it didn't happen and if it did she did it" is how it comes across to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure about the level of sexual abuse she sustained before that night, if any. I do know that the general consensus was she was never raped by a man, but there has always been debate among experts as to whether she was sexually abused previously. Personally, I think it is very possible her brother may have been hurting her, possibly with threats if she told anyone, but that's just my speculation.

As for your question above which I believe refers to the old damage to her hymen, "straddle injuries" are not uncommon in active young girls and can result in damage to the hymen. The 5 year old daughter of a friend of mine partially tore her hymen landing the wrong way on monkey bars. I'm not suggesting this is what happened to her, but it's not impossible for two separate things to have occurred here.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Well my theory was that the rough cloth that was used to vigorously wipe JBR had fragments of the paintbrush on it and these could have got inside her.

Hypothetical theories and hearsay are all very well but it's what is written in Dr. Meyer's report that is important.

Mine is just a theory. I know no more than anyone else here, and definitely less than some.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, that's right "Patsy said". We must always believe what Patsy said.

I only quoted a few words from the autopsy report so yes, obviously I left a lot out.

We should remember that the autopsy report stands as it is, and cannot be added to. Nothing beyond the four corners of that report can be stated as fact. People writing books or posting on forums have their own theories and most have their own interpretations of what Dr. Meyer 'meant' by his observations.

If you have read something within that autopsy report that I have missed, regarding definite evidence of sexual abuse from that night, then please point it out to me and I will apologize.

As for my saying that JBR would not have had anything sexual done to her without making a fuss, I stand by that. We are talking about what happened Christmas night.

You ask me how I would know that. I am now asking you - how would you know she wouldn't have made a fuss?

However, as neither of us know the answer, then I think we will have to agree to disagree.

If you are going to say she was too terrified to make a sound because somebody was holding a knife, then that is ridiculous imo.

Miz Adventure,
Linda Hoffman Pugh, the housekeeper said she walked in on JonBenet and Burke Ramsey in her bedroom playing doctor under the bed covers.

Patsy in interview stated that JonBenet and Burke Ramsey regularly shared a bedroom, last on Christmas Eve.


JonBenet: Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation, by Steve Thomas

Detective Harmer presented a surprising anatomy lesson on vaginas to a meeting primarly attended by men. She showed a picture of the vagina of a normal healthy six-year-old girl and contrasted it with a photo of the vagina of JonBenet. Even to the uninformed the visual difference was apparent, and Harmer cited the experts who said there was evidence of chronic sexual abuse, although the detectives referred to it only as Prior Vaginal Trauma

Robert Kirschner, MD. University of Chicago, Department of Pathology.

1. 1997 Statement. "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."

2. Alternative Version of Statement. www.stewwebb.com contains a different wording for what Dr. Kirschner is alleged to have said: "Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department went even further, pointing out that her vaginal opening was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. He stated, "The genital injuries indicate penetration, not only (previously) by a penis, but by another instrument and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation." "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, her father would have been arrested" [highlighting of word differences added].

December 29, 1996
Search Warrant
In the County Court
County of Boulder
The People of the State of Colorado
Before the Honorable Diane R. MacDonald, Judge

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed the Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in that area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's pubic area having been wiped by a cloth.

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 27, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury constant with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact. For further details on the autopsy see the attached document entitled Addendum To Search Warrant.

With JonBenet having an enlarged, i.e. abnormal vaginal opening, blood stains in her underwear, along with the Coroner citing an acute Digital Penetration and Sexual Contact as he examined JonBenet, all that sounds like Sexual Assault to me?

Why was JonBenet bleeding internally, and why was her pubic area wiped clean of blood?

BPD themselves make the case for Chronic Sexual Abuse and Coroner Meyer after examining JonBenet concludes there was an Acute Sexual Assault

The only thing missing, which I'm certain will appear online one day, are the photographs Detective Harmer used to display JonBenet's abnormally enlarged vaginal opening.


.

 

[BBB167893]

https://soundcloud.com/freespeechbroadcasting/hour-2-010817

@44:25
LW mentions news article, 'JonBenet Inc.':

http://www.acandyrose.com/02002000NEWS-jonbenet-inc.htm

Amounts of money that various media entities had made on JBR case:

LW: I supect now, 20 years later, that the amount of money that has been made by the media off of the tragedy of this family is probably approaching a trillion dollars.
It could be more.

BBM

He'd know, the dirty SOB. No, I'm sorry I said that. It's not fair to the dirty SOB's of the world!

 

[kanzz]

Thought I’d just post the pertinent sections of the AR for reference here:

On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1×1 cm hymenal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violet discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified.

Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen.

Key words of concern:
Blood
Hyperemia
Abrasion
Vascular congestion
Focal Interstitial chronic inflammation
Epithelial erosion
Birefringent foreign material

Regarding the “1×1 cm hymenal orifice”, and the “Alternative Version of Statement. www.stewwebb.com..” for Robert Kirschner MD. University of Chicago, Department of Pathology (which I finally tracked to the pbworks site ). Oh stew, I couldn't get onto your site. "The owner of this website (www.stewwebb.com) has banned your IP address". gah.

Anyway, I suspect stew has taken quite a bit of liberty with Dr. Kirschner's original statement. Let me re-phrase that. stew twisted what Dr. Kirschner said to make it sound more salacious.

A cm is approximately half the width of my index finger.
So, I’m just going to go out on a limb here and make a bold statement: Not a penis.

 

[Cranberry]

Thought I’d just post the pertinent sections of the AR for reference here:



Key words of concern:
Blood
Hyperemia
Abrasion
Vascular congestion
Focal Interstitial chronic inflammation
Epithelial erosion
Birefringent foreign material

Regarding the “1×1 cm hymenal orifice”, and the “Alternative Version of Statement. www.stewwebb.com..” for Robert Kirschner MD. University of Chicago, Department of Pathology (which I finally tracked to the pbworks site ). Oh stew, I couldn't get onto your site. "The owner of this website (www.stewwebb.com) has banned your IP address". gah.

Anyway, I suspect stew has taken quite a bit of liberty with Dr. Kirschner's original statement. Let me re-phrase that. stew twisted what Dr. Kirschner said to make it sound more salacious.

A cm is approximately half the width of my index finger.
So, I’m just going to go out on a limb here and make a bold statement: Not a penis.

kanzz, here is a quote from the Vanity Fair 10/97 article:

The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."

 

[BoldBear]

Yes, that's right "Patsy said". We must always believe what Patsy said.

I only quoted a few words from the autopsy report so yes, obviously I left a lot out.

We should remember that the autopsy report stands as it is, and cannot be added to. Nothing beyond the four corners of that report can be stated as fact. People writing books or posting on forums have their own theories and most have their own interpretations of what Dr. Meyer 'meant' by his observations.

If you have read something within that autopsy report that I have missed, regarding definite evidence of sexual abuse from that night, then please point it out to me and I will apologize.

As for my saying that JBR would not have had anything sexual done to her without making a fuss, I stand by that. We are talking about what happened Christmas night.

You ask me how I would know that. I am now asking you - how would you know she wouldn't have made a fuss?

However, as neither of us know the answer, then I think we will have to agree to disagree.

If you are going to say she was too terrified to make a sound because somebody was holding a knife, then that is ridiculous imo.

The corner did not speculate on sexual abuse just as the corner did not speculate on what created the bruises on JB's back or what created the bruises on her shoulders or face. That does not imply that there's no evidence of sexual abuse; instead, the coroner simply reported on the findings.

My objection about what JB would or wouldn't do is that it is speculation. It cannot be stated for fact because we don't know. We also didn't know what Patsy did or didn't do as well.

Had you presented it as "I don't believe Patsy would have done ______ because ______," I wouldn't have an objection. But please don't read more into the corner's report than is actually there. And don't state what people would or wouldn't do as fact if it's based on speculation.

 

[Teresa]

kanzz, here is a quote from the Vanity Fair 10/97 article:

The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."

I have leaned to JonBenets vaginal injuries being caused by Patsy using a douche. The housekeeper said she heard screams coming from the bathroom after accidents and friends claimed Patsy was. I'm thinking if Patsy put her in the tub, stood over her to douche, the internal injury could be possible.The erosion on one side might be caused by the wand being held more on that side.I had another thought, what if JonBenets was fighting her and Patsy was holding her by the arm and her feet slipped out from under her. The top of her head, backishpart could have hit the faucet hard.
Could her injury fit? By the way I do think John was up to things with his daughter but this isn't what led to JonBenets death to me. Maybe the cover up. What do you think?

 

[BoldBear]

Miz Adventure,

My personal opinion about the possibility of sexual abuse that that I'm on the fence and will always be. The autopsy and her history showed signs of possible abuse, but because of the murder and the Ramseys lawyering up, a sexual abuse investigation couldn't be done. LE bungled that too. There is no way to definitively tell if she was sexually abused because the other half of a sexual abuse investigation, the interviewing possible witnesses, was never done. The interviews that were done were to find the killer. I believe that possible sexual abuse was only viewed as a motive for the murder. There could have been two separate crimes here. There's also the possibility that she was never sexually abused. All those possibilities have been repeatedly discussed in these threads. It all boils down to what theory you believe, but I don't think we'll ever know for a fact if she was abused or not.

 

[HarmonyE.]

The only thing missing, which I'm certain will appear online one day, are the photographs Detective Harmer used to display JonBenet's abnormally enlarged vaginal opening.

Let's hope this never happens. The poor child does not deserve this final indignity.

 

[UKGuy]

Let's hope this never happens. The poor child does not deserve this final indignity.

HarmonyE,
ITA. Yet the case continues to fascinate people, have you noticed images and inside facts starting to percolate out?

The Documentaries require injections of new stuff, so they can keep the production line running.

If JonBenet's internal injuries were the result of staging, why bother wiping her down and redressing her in clean underwear?

Looks to me like JonBenet was sexually assaulted then there was an attempted cover up?

if there had been staging by the parents, who thinks they would have thought: Lets leave her wearing Burke's long johns?

I'll bet BPD thought Burke's long johns, and over sized underwear would Patsy have sanctioned that?

Internally Burke Ramsey would have been prime suspect, externally for legal and political reasons one of the parents or an intruder would be prime suspect.

The case screams BDI to me in a manner it never in the past. We really need Kolar to come clean and list the salacious details he reckons surround JonBenet's death.

Since he reckons it was no accident and likely premeditated, that's some call for a nine year old!

.

 

[Miz Adventure]

The corner did not speculate on sexual abuse just as the corner did not speculate on what created the bruises on JB's back or what created the bruises on her shoulders or face. That does not imply that there's no evidence of sexual abuse; instead, the coroner simply reported on the findings.

My objection about what JB would or wouldn't do is that it is speculation. It cannot be stated for fact because we don't know. We also didn't know what Patsy did or didn't do as well.

Had you presented it as "I don't believe Patsy would have done ______ because ______," I wouldn't have an objection. But please don't read more into the corner's report than is actually there. And don't state what people would or wouldn't do as fact if it's based on speculation.

BB - You are basically stating exactly what I have said in the post you so severely criticized.

And I'd like to remind you of my exact words................

We should remember that the autopsy report stands as it is, and cannot be added to. Nothing beyond the four corners of that report can be stated as fact. People writing books or posting on forums have their own theories and most have their own interpretations of what Dr. Meyer 'meant' by his observations.

If you have read something within that autopsy report that I have missed, regarding definite evidence of sexual abuse from that night, then please point it out to me and I will apologize.

As for my saying that JBR would not have had anything sexual done to her without making a fuss, I stand by that. We are talking about what happened Christmas night.

You ask me how I would know that. I am now asking you - how would you know she wouldn't have made a fuss?

However, as neither of us know the answer, then I think we will have to agree to disagree.

My last sentence says it all.

I don't know why you want to get your knickers in a twist over something you think I said as though it was fact instead of speculation. In the past you yourself have said a number of things as though they were fact but, like most people, I have ignored them because it is NOT important.

I have stated many times on this forum that I am as much in the dark with this case as other posters.

Regarding JBR struggling (or crying out) if she was taken from her bed by a stranger, I stand by what I said because I think she would have. If you disagree with that, it is fine by me. If you are taking issue with my phraseology that is also fine. Petty, but fine.

 

[akh]

what if JonBenets was fighting her and Patsy was holding her by the arm and her feet slipped out from under her. The top of her head, backishpart could have hit the faucet hard.
Could her injury fit? What do you think?

I think they would've just called it an accident. She was clowning around in the tub and fell. Or she wasn't wanting to take her bath and struggling and fell. Something along those lines would be the reason given. But that assumes they thought she was dead.
I think they'd call an ambulance actually, not go ahead and finish her off or assume she was dead or as good as dead. But even if they did, why not just call it an accident? Why take away any chance of calling it an accident?

And why would either parent support the other if the other had killed her?

It's right back to IMO: Because neither parent killed her but someone they'd both want to protect killed her. And did it in a way that left no possibility of claiming it was an accident.

 

[BoldBear]

BB - You are basically stating exactly what I have said in the post you so severely criticized.

And I'd like to remind you of my exact words................



My last sentence says it all.

I don't know why you want to get your knickers in a twist over something you think I said as though it was fact instead of speculation. In the past you yourself have said a number of things as though they were fact but, like most people, I have ignored them because it is NOT important.

I have stated many times on this forum that I am as much in the dark with this case as other posters.

Regarding JBR struggling (or crying out) if she was taken from her bed by a stranger, I stand by what I said because I think she would have. If you disagree with that, it is fine by me. If you are taking issue with my phraseology that is also fine. Petty, but fine.

You quoted a different one of your posts. The post I was referring to was where you opened with, "There is no evidence that JBR was violated sexually." Then you quoted three words from the autopsy to support your claim leaving out the other details from the autopsy that didn't support it.

I'm also ready to drop this and move on.

 

[Teresa]

I think they would've just called it an accident. She was clowning around in the tub and fell. Or she wasn't wanting to take her bath and struggling and fell. Something along those lines would be the reason given. But that assumes they thought she was dead.
I think they'd call an ambulance actually, not go ahead and finish her off or assume she was dead or as good as dead. But even if they did, why not just call it an accident? Why take away any chance of calling it an accident?

And why would either parent support the other if the other had killed her?

It's right back to IMO: Because neither parent killed her but someone they'd both want to protect killed her. And did it in a way that left no possibility of claiming it was an accident.

I can see Patsy not wanting to be reponsible in her mind, with John or the authorities. When a child dies at home there is an investigation. Mothers can and have done horrible things to their child and murdered them. Being well off does ñot make her immune.