OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[adeedra]

One of the questions I have from the pre trial testimony is the fact that right after the murders, the same day. The counselors and the kids said they didn't see anyone or hear anything. But then later you learn that someone peered into tent 6 and one girl saw it.and the person left. Surely this person would have told LE about this the day of. And it being only 10 feet away she would had have to have heard some pretty bad noises.

Why surely? People sometimes are in shock and can't think about it clearly, they don't really know if they heard or saw anything or if it was a dream - especially if they have no bad experiences. And more than that - they do remember but they are too scared to talk and need at least few hours to deal with it.
There is also effect of the group - one person said that she didn't heard anything, second, third... so fourth said the same.

Do you really think that being 10 feet away from another tent, middle of the night, could be the very first camping ever (and girls were probably tired and stressed just because of that camp, woods, new faces, darkness etc,), during the storm, with thunders and later with rain, being 8-10 years old you would hear and able to say what's happening in another tent?

 

[missgulfsouth]

That's chilling. I wonder if they'd been watching y'all for a while and heard your aunt or cousin call out to you or holler at you for dinner. So freaky!

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Possibly so. I was a city kid, I lived at least 20 miles from my aunt who lived on a very rural dirt road in the country with only a few neighbors spread far apart. No one knew me out there.

 

[Ven]

Which begs the question. When GLH drove the pregnant women to remote area and did his brutal rapes, did he leave the women to be found for the shock factor? If not, then he probably wasn't the leader of these murders. In this picture the arrow points to the tree under which the women were left to die.

After he had raped them, he may have found himself psychologically unable to kill them with his own hands. Maybe that's why he just left them there to die.

 

[missgulfsouth]

Wow that is a very scary story and so glad you both were ok.

Just had a thought about it which you may have already thought of long before now.

Is it possible the Aunt and the adults wrote the letter to scare you two into stopping some of what you both were doing at that age?

Probably not because i would have hoped they would have told you by now if they had done that.

If they knew your names then it may have been a relative of the Aunts who was trying to get you girls to stop being risky out alone like that.

It is scary to think about who could have wrote the letter.

I know what you mean though at that age we dont always think about all the dangers of the world. I shared a story on another thread that this reminds me of and to this day I cannot believe how dangerous of a situation I got myself into.

I was riding my motorcycle near a highway as the trails went near there. I decided to let my engine cool and so I pulled into the rest area which was just a dirt road rest area pull off the highway. There was already a car there and so I didnt think much of it. I pulled way too close to this car and got off my motorcycle and took off my helmet and was just resting and this guy rolls down his window and calls me over to ask directions. I was 14. And STUPID.

Im a male but still there are so many creeps that I should have never pulled that close to that vehicle. Thankfully all he needed was directions and I quickly left after that and for days afterwards and even to this day I think of how bad that could have gone if the guy was a creep and pulled a gun on me.

We just dont always think clearly at young ages. Which is why I agree with being overprotective of our youth. I would much rather have our kids mad at us for being so protective of them rather than them being abducted or killed. They will grow up to love us and respect that we were just looking out for them.

Yes, at 14 we are so naive and don't know what truly goes on in the world. Most of us at that age are still innocent, we don't imagine hurting people in horrific ways (some 14 year olds do, though!) It never occurred to us that a smiling adult could be planning our death. Kids are so vulnerable. I've studied homicides since my college days over 20 years ago. I've always shared true stories (warnings) with my kids about people, as well as danger from freak accidents, to be mindful and careful, not take huge risks, not be adrenaline junkies, practice wisdom and caution. I have a special discernment and can read people very quickly, I warn my kids to stay away from certain people who raise the hair on my neck.

My aunt didn't write it. First of all, she didn't have to ... she would tell us directly. The letter was mailed to her home with no return address. Second, she was terrified about it. My aunt was a hippie free spirit who loved us exploring and getting grubby and dirty. She wanted us outside. In fact, all she would have had to do with me is tell me not to dare go up on that hill into the woods, and I would have listened, I've always loved my Aunt Sherry. No. She didn't mind us exploring the hill and woods. I'm not exactly sure she knew we crossed I-75 to see Aunt Em, that may not have been okay. There were only a couple of neighbors on the entire road, far apart. She did go to their houses to ask them about the letter but no one knew what she was talking about, and they would have been at work when we were out wandering in the early afternoons. Everyone we knew was shocked and terrified about the letter and felt that it was a direct threat to "little girls". I will add, we only climbed that hill and went into the woods maybe three times, on random separate occasions. It was a long, tiresome hike for us, so we only did it when we really wanted to and there was nothing else to do that interested us. So three times ... before my aunt got the letter. Who was in the woods that last time, when we heard the strange noises?

 

[Betty P]

People who spend much time out in the woods, especially after dark rarely use flashlights. If he/they were hunters, that wouldn't be so hard to sense where to go and what's happening around. Also - there was a storm coming, lightenings could "help" with taking things from tents (were those glasses taken to make sure that counselors will not be able to clearly see, what's happening?)

Good question for those new to reading about this terrible tragedy. GLH, the main suspect, had poor eyesight and frequently didn't have eyeglasses to correct his vision (in this case, he had been an excaped convict for 3 years).

One of the signatures of GLH's crimes was the theft of eyeglasses and sunglasses from his victims. He would take them, then later try them on and discard them if they weren't close to the prescription he needed. He usually did this when burglarizing people's homes.

One of the men who had previously escaped prison with GLH testified that Gene was "night blind", had a hard time seeing in the dark. When they wandered the woods in that area at night, he said GLH sometimes needed help getting through the woods. Another reason why it seems likely GLH needed an accomplice at Camp Scott..

 

[missgulfsouth]

Good question for those new to reading about this terrible tragedy. GLH, the main suspect, had poor eyesight and frequently didn't have eyeglasses to correct his vision (in this case, he had been an excaped convict for 3 years).

One of the signatures of GLH's crimes was the theft of eyeglasses and sunglasses from his victims. He would take them, then later try them on and discard them if they weren't close to the prescription he needed. He usually did this when burglarizing people's homes.

One of the men who had previously escaped prison with GLH testified that Gene was "night blind", had a hard time seeing in the dark. When they wandered the woods in that area at night, he said GLH sometimes needed help getting through the woods. Another reason why it seems likely GLH needed an accomplice at Camp Scott..

And it was reported that that night was BLACK, no stars or moonlight, you couldn't tell if your eyes were open or closed. Plus, no lights at the camp except for lanterns on the latrines. I'm surprised anyone could see a thing to commit the murders. Did they have a flashlight in one hand and a weapon in the other? Did they use one hand to tie the girls up, and a flashlight in the other in order to see what they were doing? Nah. There was more than one person. Someone had to hold the light.

 

[Betty P]

And it was reported that that night was BLACK, no stars or moonlight, you couldn't tell if your eyes were open or closed. Plus, no lights at the camp except for lanterns on the latrines. I'm surprised anyone could see a thing to commit the murders. Did they have a flashlight in one hand and a weapon in the other? Did they use one hand to tie the girls up, and a flashlight in the other in order to see what they were doing? Nah. There was more than one person. Someone had to hold the light.

They had probably been roaming around the area for some time, too. Their eyes had adjusted to the dark. GLH was living outdoors for part of the time as an escaped convict, so he was used to being in the dark out in the woods. There were also some burglaries of local businesses that night - a grocery store, etc. They were used to getting around in the dark. But, yeah, the flashlight helped in the woods and in helping find the victims.

 

[adeedra]

Was that possible that someone around there had access to some kind of night vision device?

 

[huxley72]

Was that possible that someone around there had access to some kind of night vision device?

Thats it you broke the case wide open.

 

[flourish]

Thats it you broke the case wide open.

What's the point of this post? It comes across very snarky...?

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[Hatfield]

Yes, at 14 we are so naive and don't know what truly goes on in the world. Most of us at that age are still innocent, we don't imagine hurting people in horrific ways (some 14 year olds do, though!) It never occurred to us that a smiling adult could be planning our death. Kids are so vulnerable. I've studied homicides since my college days over 20 years ago. I've always shared true stories (warnings) with my kids about people, as well as danger from freak accidents, to be mindful and careful, not take huge risks, not be adrenaline junkies, practice wisdom and caution. I have a special discernment and can read people very quickly, I warn my kids to stay away from certain people who raise the hair on my neck.

My aunt didn't write it. First of all, she didn't have to ... she would tell us directly. The letter was mailed to her home with no return address. Second, she was terrified about it. My aunt was a hippie free spirit who loved us exploring and getting grubby and dirty. She wanted us outside. In fact, all she would have had to do with me is tell me not to dare go up on that hill into the woods, and I would have listened, I've always loved my Aunt Sherry. No. She didn't mind us exploring the hill and woods. I'm not exactly sure she knew we crossed I-75 to see Aunt Em, that may not have been okay. There were only a couple of neighbors on the entire road, far apart. She did go to their houses to ask them about the letter but no one knew what she was talking about, and they would have been at work when we were out wandering in the early afternoons. Everyone we knew was shocked and terrified about the letter and felt that it was a direct threat to "little girls". I will add, we only climbed that hill and went into the woods maybe three times, on random separate occasions. It was a long, tiresome hike for us, so we only did it when we really wanted to and there was nothing else to do that interested us. So three times ... before my aunt got the letter. Who was in the woods that last time, when we heard the strange noises?

Thanks for adding the extra details. Yes very scary and someone definitely was watching that last time at least.
Its no wonder it still creeps you out.

 

[4SAM]

Just wanted to say that you guys have done a really good job breaking this crime down, sifting through pages and pages of documents. I believe it is people like ya'll that has kept this crime front and center and it would not surprise me that it doesn't get solved one of you. GOOD JOB.

 

[MaryG12]

Do you think they parked a vehicle out at the gate and walked in on foot? Otherwise, it would take 2 people to carry the bodies some distance. I think they planned to leave Doris, correct?

MOO if the perps were outsiders, they probably could have passed through the power line trail, and across the fence or gate nearby Kiowa to access Tent #7. The main trail that led out to the front gate - The Cookie Trail - was pretty long IIRC.

Quoting my own post here because I forgot to add the most frightening detail ... the person who wrote the letter knew our names. No one knew me way out there in the country, except my aunt and her family.

OMG :O :O :O

Good Points.


JMO
One possible motive I continually go back to for consideration.


Is it possible that people that lived in the area got tired of this annual influx of over 100 people and got tired of being disruptive to their quiet woods. And so they wanted to commit a horrendous and terrifying crime with the hopes that it would stop the camping each season.


Just a theory about a possible motive that I keep wondering about.


People who enjoyed those woods were probably not too happy about the annual influx of girl scout campers coming each year to "their woods".

Not a bad theory at that, I know it is hard to place a motive on this case outside of GLH, am not even sure he would actually commit this, although I am open to the possibility that a relative or two of his helped.


Camp Scott is on a large chunk of land, over 400 acres, if it was an inside job...what would the motive be? That is what leaves me scratching my head.

Was that possible that someone around there had access to some kind of night vision device?

That opens a whole new set of questions.


Would such a device been accessible to the general public in 1977? If not, who would be most likely to use one (outside of a military person)? Did anyone at Camp Scott serve in the military? What about the surrounding neighboring ranch owners?


Plus any other questions I forgot.

 

[MaryG12]

Im with you.

I just recently learned about this case for the first time and the more I read about it the more horrifying it gets.

I was in the Boy Scouts growing up and so I can relate to camping and some of the aspects of the scouts.

This case is one of the scariest cases I have ever learned about. Its the stuff nightmares are made of. Only its real and really happened which makes it more frightening.

Bless all the families and others who were impacted by what happened.

I am with you 100% + when I first started reading about this case, primarily online, and of course late at night, no background noise going on, my husband would be asleep, and I'd be glancing around, especially if I had to go to the bathroom at night.

And it takes a lot to put me in that frame of mind.

Truly terrifying.

 

[HoneyWest]

One of the questions I have from the pre trial testimony is the fact that right after the murders, the same day. The counselors and the kids said they didn't see anyone or hear anything. But then later you learn that someone peered into tent 6 and one girl saw it.and the person left. Surely this person would have told LE about this the day of. And it being only 10 feet away she would had have to have heard some pretty bad noises. Also the killer or killers seemed to know that tent 7 was gonna have 3 campers. Could have been lurking all night around the tents to see how many were there. Would the attack had not taken place if there were 4 in the tent? I also think if Hart were around the week before with all those counselors he would have acted then. Why wait til camp started after 4 years of being on the run to murder for your first time and rape very young girls? It just doesn't seem like his thing, hes a bad dude not doubt but it just doesn't seem to fit. I think while chasing Hart other evidence and clues have been neglected and passed over.

Yes, one of the girls said she saw a man lift the flap of the tent and look in. She was questioned and she gave a description to LE but her description didn't match Hart.

Why do you say the killer/killers seemed to know that there would only be 3 girls in tent 7?

I totally agree with you that Weaver fixated on Hart too quickly and other people/clues were put on the back burner.

 

[HoneyWest]

Yes, at 14 we are so naive and don't know what truly goes on in the world. Most of us at that age are still innocent, we don't imagine hurting people in horrific ways (some 14 year olds do, though!) It never occurred to us that a smiling adult could be planning our death. Kids are so vulnerable. I've studied homicides since my college days over 20 years ago. I've always shared true stories (warnings) with my kids about people, as well as danger from freak accidents, to be mindful and careful, not take huge risks, not be adrenaline junkies, practice wisdom and caution. I have a special discernment and can read people very quickly, I warn my kids to stay away from certain people who raise the hair on my neck.

My aunt didn't write it. First of all, she didn't have to ... she would tell us directly. The letter was mailed to her home with no return address. Second, she was terrified about it. My aunt was a hippie free spirit who loved us exploring and getting grubby and dirty. She wanted us outside. In fact, all she would have had to do with me is tell me not to dare go up on that hill into the woods, and I would have listened, I've always loved my Aunt Sherry. No. She didn't mind us exploring the hill and woods. I'm not exactly sure she knew we crossed I-75 to see Aunt Em, that may not have been okay. There were only a couple of neighbors on the entire road, far apart. She did go to their houses to ask them about the letter but no one knew what she was talking about, and they would have been at work when we were out wandering in the early afternoons. Everyone we knew was shocked and terrified about the letter and felt that it was a direct threat to "little girls". I will add, we only climbed that hill and went into the woods maybe three times, on random separate occasions. It was a long, tiresome hike for us, so we only did it when we really wanted to and there was nothing else to do that interested us. So three times ... before my aunt got the letter. Who was in the woods that last time, when we heard the strange noises?

Thanks for sharing this. What a terrifying thing, to get an anonymous letter like that. Someone really put some effort into that.

 

[adeedra]

That opens a whole new set of questions.

Would such a device been accessible to the general public in 1977? If not, who would be most likely to use one (outside of a military person)? Did anyone at Camp Scott serve in the military? What about the surrounding neighboring ranch owners?

Plus any other questions I forgot.

Now I checked it out a bit and it seems to be possible to get night vision device, but I don't know what are the odds.
At that time US Army was still changing old night vision devices from first generation used during WW2 to second. I think that it could be possible to get these if not legally then on black market pretty easily - but it would be pricy either way.
Maybe they couldn't afford that purchase, but they surely could steal it.
Someone in that area could have that at house illegally, and got burglarized - that person most likely wouldn't report that to not police.

I don't know about probability of this, maybe this theory it's too naive, but that could explain so much...

 

[adeedra]

Possibly so. I was a city kid, I lived at least 20 miles from my aunt who lived on a very rural dirt road in the country with only a few neighbors spread far apart. No one knew me out there.

Some people are really really chatty and they are talking about anything to anyone not even realizing what they are doing.
They wouldn't answer to direct question "where are these kids from? how are they called?" but during one hour chat they will share that and bunch of other details about their new washmaschine, their last visit at hairdresser saloon and some funny stories about these kids visiting in neighbourhood.

My aunt is like that, she will tell EVERYTHING she know to everyone who will ask, and later swear that she didn't. Someone in that neighbourhood could be that chatty, or "caring", especially if he/she was finding your aunt's methods and attitude as "inappropriate". For some people is unimaginable, for some other just a great idea to get what their sick mind wants.
Why would some creeper who wanted to hurt you did something to scare and "protect" you from him? But maybe someone who knew about creep tried to send some warning?

I'm curious how often these things happen that in this case they just dismiss that note and throw it away... so scary.

 

[missgulfsouth]

Some people are really really chatty and they are talking about anything to anyone not even realizing what they are doing.
They wouldn't answer to direct question "where are these kids from? how are they called?" but during one hour chat they will share that and bunch of other details about their new washmaschine, their last visit at hairdresser saloon and some funny stories about these kids visiting in neighbourhood.

My aunt is like that, she will tell EVERYTHING she know to everyone who will ask, and later swear that she didn't. Someone in that neighbourhood could be that chatty, or "caring", especially if he/she was finding your aunt's methods and attitude as "inappropriate". For some people is unimaginable, for some other just a great idea to get what their sick mind wants.
Why would some creeper who wanted to hurt you did something to scare and "protect" you from him? But maybe someone who knew about creep tried to send some warning?

I'm curious how often these things happen that in this case they just dismiss that note and throw it away... so scary.

Yes, it's odd to send a note threatening us ... telling what you intend to do. All I know is it terrified all of us, we took the threat very seriously and never went back into those woods. I probably didn't spend the night there again for quite a while, either. It's a small, sleepy town of about 5,000 people, I lived right in the city. Nothing bad really happens there, a few murders, but nothing like we were threatened with. May have been some old curmudgeon who just likes scaring people.

 

[Betty P]

Was that possible that someone around there had access to some kind of night vision device?

Possible, but unlikely. Most of the people in this area were pretty low income. When I read some old news stories from back in the day, it wasn't unusual for someone to borrow a fishing rod & reel to go fishing because they didn't have one. I doubt people had much in the way of extra cash to spend on something like that. Back then, that kind of equipment would have been pretty difficult to find and expensive. This was before personal computers or the internet. A pair of binoculars for hunting would have been a luxury item. Guns didn't seem to be plentiful, either, judging by a lot of the pretrial testimony. Thinking back on it, though, it seemed interesting that when LE asked Jack Shroff about the property stolen from his cabin, he mentioned having a gun there, but the burglars didn't steal it. They just took food, beer and household-type items.