Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

[THXGuru]

For those that feels MS’s confession was merely bragging to look tough to some kids..

When someone helps procure an illegal handgun, helps obtain and test “with bones” a commercial incinerator with no defendable legit purpose, is in same location of the victim at her last trackable mouments, helps test the incinerator (with what is believed to be female human bones by a top expert), gleefully documents the whole experience in pic and videos, writes a detailed rap song that corresponds with every piece of available evidence, has possession of the last known items to be on the victims person..

My opinion is that when that same person brags in detail about that exact crime to look bad *advertiser censored* to a group of high school kids it becomes pretty hard for him or his supporters to complain about unfair process and unfair assumptions. It gets to the point that even if in the 1 in a million chance he wasn’t involved in the plan and he just bragged to look cool then.. CHARGES, TRIAL AND A M1 CONVICTION.. Sorry buddy, guess that’s just part of the occupational hazard of the illegal gun buying, girl body incinerating, murder rap writing, brag confessing, badass gangsta lifestyle I suppose. Unfortunately choices do have consequences

Again “beyond reasonable doubt on the totality of the evidence” is the standard. Not “is there any far flung but remotley possible explaination that might explain away a particular piece of the key evidence”

It’s designed that way to strike a balance between the threat of wrongful convictions to innocent people and the threat of releasing dangerous criminals to prey upon more unsuspecting victims

One of the best posts I have ever read about this horrible tragedy

 

[bakingirl]

I have a couple of procedural questions, sorry if these points have been covered already!

If DM wants to call CN as a witness, then would he have been permitted to meet with her over the weekend? If so, would the conversation have been monitored?

Also, I am beginning to see a slight disadvantage to Dungey going last. If I understand correctly, he will have slim pickings for witnesses on direct exam, given that the crown and then DM got first pick at witnesses for direct exam.

 

[kovaci]

I know I saw the location of the court listed in a post before but can someone remind me? I'm considering going tomorrow. Any tips from those who have been?

I went on thursday, it was in courtroom 2-7 on the second floor. Showed up at 9:45am got in for legal arguments at 10am. That went to about 11:40am, judge called for a break, public has to leave courtroom and re-line up to get back in. The lineups vary, if a school trip is in the courthouse can be longer and depending on whats going on that day. Was suppose to be one witness on thursday but the judge re called MWJ so it was two witness plus i stayed for legal arguments before and after which went to 6pm. Tomorrow I assume it will be busy with DM’s defense if he chooses too.

 

[Boudica]

I have a couple of procedural questions, sorry if these points have been covered already!

If DM wants to call CN as a witness, then would he have been permitted to meet with her over the weekend? If so, would the conversation have been monitored?

Also, I am beginning to see a slight disadvantage to Dungey going last. If I understand correctly, he will have slim pickings for witnesses on direct exam, given that the crown and then DM got first pick at witnesses for direct exam.

I believe some of the Crown witnesses can be called back by the Defence as defence witnesses. Does any one know if this is correct??

 

[Obes99]

I went on thursday, it was in courtroom 2-7 on the second floor. Showed up at 9:45am got in for legal arguments at 10am. That went to about 11:40am, judge called for a break, public has to leave courtroom and re-line up to get back in. The lineups vary, if a school trip is in the courthouse can be longer and depending on whats going on that day. Was suppose to be one witness on thursday but the judge re called MWJ so it was two witness plus i stayed for legal arguments before and after which went to 6pm. Tomorrow I assume it will be busy with DM’s defense if he chooses too.

Thanks for that but what courthouse? Address?

 

[Boudica]

I have an interesting question that I'm hoping to get some feedback on.

Does anyone think that all these players now understand today how truly insignificant they were to DM? SS, AM, MH, CN, his own parents, and then lastly... MS? Oh, Smichy. DM didn't love you. You weren't his brother. Psychopaths lack the ability to form any real attachment. After all, he was going to try and pin every single crime, on you.

Everyone serves a purpose to DM, until essentially, they no longer do. What happens then? Is it fair to speculate that all these players have come to this understanding today? I can appreciate that this may be unsavoury, even scary, to think about, and likely requires a level of awareness, rationality or critical thought that many of them don't possess or don't want to exercise.

Thoughts?

Good question...IMO..here goes

Smich - definitely has realized especially after he was made aware of the letters that DM wrote to CN throwing him under the bus.

CN - not sure, she spent 4 months in jail protecting DM and it appeared when she was testifying in the Bosma murder trial that she was still under DM's spell and still protecting him

AM, SS - too stupid to realize

MH - He finally did realize, took him a while as I seem to remember that he made many conflicting police statements

 

[kovaci]

Thanks for that but what courthouse? Address?

361 University Avenue Toronto

 

[ABro]

I have a couple of procedural questions, sorry if these points have been covered already!

If DM wants to call CN as a witness, then would he have been permitted to meet with her over the weekend? If so, would the conversation have been monitored?

Also, I am beginning to see a slight disadvantage to Dungey going last. If I understand correctly, he will have slim pickings for witnesses on direct exam, given that the crown and then DM got first pick at witnesses for direct exam.

It's far better to cross examine a witness than call them yourself and conduct the examination-in-chief. There's way more latitude in cross examination and you can question more aggressively than in direct examination. That's the risk for the defence in calling witnesses including the defendants themselves. The Crown gets to cross examine them and so does the other defence lawyer.

Dungey actually has an advantage by going last. He gets to cross examine every witness up until he calls his own if he call his own.

 

[Satchie]

I agree 100% with your link

20 years ago right back to way beyond 200 years before that, it would have been absolutely impossible to have near the amount and variety of evidence against an accused killer that we have against MS in this trail.

Yet convictions still happened.

Please show me in your links where they advocate for “wild unprovable possible theory’s for each specific piece of key evidence” over “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt based on the totality of available evidence”

Thanks in advance

I guess I can only respond to what you appear to be labelling as 'wild unproveable, etc theories'. I assume what you mean by that, is my belief that the evidence of the garage confession does not prove MS guilty of murder, because it was in the nature of bragging rather than truth-telling.

There are currently many article/legal appeals about the use of rap lyrics/rapper attitudes to convict people of actual crimes. As the story goes, should Johnny Cash have been jailed when he sang "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die"?

Obviously not, but that points to the way everyone knows you can't just take everything literally.

I'm not trying to claim MS's rap isn't true, that the garage testimony should be thrown out, or anything extreme. But equally, I don't think it should be seen naively as some type of absolutely reliable confession, without considering the context.

Rap lyrics, particularly those of the “gangsta” variety, frequently glamorize the very criminal behavior that defendants are on trial for. If juries don’t understand the narrative traditions of boasting and exaggeration on which rap is based — or the industry conditions that push aspiring rappers to adopt a criminal persona — then they find it easy to convict, even when evidence against the defendant is scant.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/erik-nielson/prosecuting-rap-music_b_2956658.html

 

[THXGuru]

I believe some of the Crown witnesses can be called back by the Defence as defence witnesses. Does any one know if this is correct??

I don't believe the defense can recall a Crown witness. There would have to be a very extraordinary circumstance for that to happen and a judge would need to allow it.

I do believe DM will call CN.

 

[Stumper]

I guess I can only respond to what you appear to be labelling as 'wild unproveable, etc theories'. I assume what you mean by that, is my belief that the evidence of the garage confession does not prove MS guilty of murder, because it was in the nature of bragging rather than truth-telling.

There are currently many article/legal appeals about the use of rap lyrics/rapper attitudes to convict people of actual crimes. As the story goes, should Johnny Cash have been jailed when he sang "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die"?

Obviously not, but that points to the way everyone knows you can't just take everything literally.

I'm not trying to claim MS's rap isn't true, that the garage testimony should be thrown out, or anything extreme. But equally, I don't think it should be seen naively as some type of absolutely reliable confession, without considering the context.



https://www.huffingtonpost.com/erik-nielson/prosecuting-rap-music_b_2956658.html

I follow you. But, again we are hyper focusing on one piece of evidence to the exclusion of the totality of evidence.

If Johnny Cash had been the last known contact of a man shot in Reno, and video’d and selfied himself incinerating a male human body soon after, and left a trail of texts about procuring an illegal handgun and taking things to the next level and incinerating bones at the first available opportunity. Then it turns out he is in possession of many of the last known items to be in that mans possesion before his death and that he confessed to a group of high schoolers about shooting a man in Reno just to watch him die and then burning the body..

Under those circumstances I think it might be fair to say we might take a look into that song in a bit of a different light no?

Maybe give that song a bit more weight in a criminal trial for the murder of a man in Reno under those exact same circumstances and in the exact timeframe of the writing of the song

 

[winter2017]

Thanks for spelling it out very clearly. Even with the mountain of evidence in the Tim Bosma trial many were saying MS was innocent and would not be convicted. I don't know what it would take maybe an actual video of the murder, and even then I am sure some would say , well , that is not real etc. sheesh.

For those that feels MS’s confession was merely bragging to look tough to some kids..

When someone helps procure an illegal handgun, helps obtain and test “with bones” a commercial incinerator with no defendable legit purpose, is in same location of the victim at her last trackable mouments, helps test the incinerator (with what is believed to be female human bones by a top expert), gleefully documents the whole experience in pic and videos, writes a detailed rap song that corresponds with every piece of available evidence, has possession of the last known items to be on the victims person..

My opinion is that when that same person brags in detail about that exact crime to look bad *advertiser censored* to a group of high school kids it becomes pretty hard for him or his supporters to complain about unfair process and unfair assumptions. It gets to the point that even if in the 1 in a million chance he wasn’t involved in the plan and he just bragged to look cool then.. CHARGES, TRIAL AND A M1 CONVICTION.. Sorry buddy, guess that’s just part of the occupational hazard of the illegal gun buying, girl body incinerating, murder rap writing, brag confessing, badass gangsta lifestyle I suppose. Unfortunately choices do have consequences

Again “beyond reasonable doubt on the totality of the evidence” is the standard. Not “is there any far flung but remotley possible explaination that might explain away a particular piece of the key evidence”

It’s designed that way to strike a balance between the threat of wrongful convictions to innocent people and the threat of releasing dangerous criminals to prey upon more unsuspecting victims

 

[FastLikeLight]

Were phone pings of July 3 released with more detailed information? Most interesting: where did DM go for an hour on a mission?

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Yes, and maybe ​they have money put away *because* their house is small. Not everyone wants to spend 25 years paying off a mortgage, and owning a giant home isn't everyone's priority.

Yes, a very wise thing to do, Gremlingrrl.


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[Grey-St]

Were phone pings of July 3 released with more detailed information? Most interesting: where did DM go for an hour on a mission?

To answer your first question, no. The phone ping exhibits have not been released, and it seems to be the most confusing aspect to this trial so far for followers. It's difficult to reconcile the the tweets and information on the phone pings from MSM with the text messages between the accused on the 3rd and 4th. So unfortunately, to answer your second question, we don't currently know where DM went "on a mission" or if he even left Maplegate at all.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I noticed something a little jarring in the text messages. 8 days before SS noticed the rotting smell he attributed to an “incomplete burn”, DM and MS had a clearly articulated plan to pursue a Dodge 3500 the next day. I wonder if we’ll ever really know the extent of the destruction these two actually wrought.

Somehow, I don’t think we will because everything has been heavily investigated now. But, IMHO, there are other serious, harmful things that these two have executed and gotten away with, so far.


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[Satchie]

I follow you. But, again we are hyper focusing on one piece of evidence to the exclusion of the totality of evidence.

If Johnny Cash had been the last known contact of a man shot in Reno, and video’d and selfied himself incinerating a male human body soon after, and left a trail of texts about procuring an illegal handgun and taking things to the next level and incinerating bones at the first available opportunity. Then it turns out he is in possession of many of the last known items to be in that mans possesion before his death and that he confessed to a group of high schoolers about shooting a man in Reno just to watch him die and then burning the body..

Under those circumstances I think it might be fair to say we might take a look into that song in a bit of a different light no?

Maybe give that song a bit more weight in a criminal trial for the murder of a man in Reno under those exact same circumstances and in the exact timeframe of the writing of the song

Yes. But what if Johnny had sang ' I burned a body in Reno', and had a friend who he was living off, and most of the things you describe were actually done by the friend: the friend had the last known contact with the victim, moved the body alone, did the videoing and photos while Johnny posed with the incinerator, negotiated for and purchased the gun and ammo and incincerator, gave the victim's possessions to Johnny. Then to convict Johnny of first degree murder is not so clear, IMO.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I would include armed robbery in the category of "ruthless"; also killing LB would in no way help with "building an empire". JMO.

My gut is telling me that killing Laura was not specifically planned, but perhaps how to handle such a situation WAS. Same with Tim. I believe Tim was an armed robbery gone wrong, but I am struggling to find a catalyst for Laura. The robbery theory isn't ridiculous.

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May sound ridiculous, but these criminals think in a very different way than “we” do. But the empire building, along with the incinerator purchase, although speculation, tie together very much in my mind. I sincerely believe they were pondering setting up a “business” to kill and dispose of bodies for a hefty fee. Hitmen of a sort. Reading their texts, this is a very real possibility to me.

Of course Laura’s murder was premeditated — they wanted to test out their new business plan. She was the first. And I am sure, in their minds, the first in a very long line.

MOO



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[Grey-St]

I have a couple of procedural questions, sorry if these points have been covered already!

If DM wants to call CN as a witness, then would he have been permitted to meet with her over the weekend? If so, would the conversation have been monitored?

Also, I am beginning to see a slight disadvantage to Dungey going last. If I understand correctly, he will have slim pickings for witnesses on direct exam, given that the crown and then DM got first pick at witnesses for direct exam.

BBM. I have been struggling with this question for a while and am glad you brought it up. I've been researching, but can't seem to find any information to answer this question, specifically. What I have found, suggests that any good lawyer, whether for the prosecution or the defence, will want to meet with and prepare their witnesses. I suppose DM would have this right, or at least the right to request a meeting, but I can't find anything to suggest that it's enforceable. You can certainly subpoena someone to testify, but I don't know if you can subpoena them to a meeting.

I wish I knew more. Any lawyers in the crowd?

 

[Oreck]

I guess I can only respond to what you appear to be labelling as 'wild unproveable, etc theories'. I assume what you mean by that, is my belief that the evidence of the garage confession does not prove MS guilty of murder, because it was in the nature of bragging rather than truth-telling.

There are currently many article/legal appeals about the use of rap lyrics/rapper attitudes to convict people of actual crimes. As the story goes, should Johnny Cash have been jailed when he sang "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die"?

Obviously not, but that points to the way everyone knows you can't just take everything literally.

I'm not trying to claim MS's rap isn't true, that the garage testimony should be thrown out, or anything extreme. But equally, I don't think it should be seen naively as some type of absolutely reliable confession, without considering the context.



https://www.huffingtonpost.com/erik-nielson/prosecuting-rap-music_b_2956658.html

Way way off subject but when I read about Johny Cash saying I killed a man in Reno it made me think of Kenny Rogers.
When he said you have to know how to hold em and know how to fold em.
He wasn't in a gambling hall, he was in a laundromat.
You have a good nite, eh.