VA - Bethany Stephens, 21, mauled to death by her 2 dogs, Dec 2017

[Jennifer17]

And that makes sense with an animal attack. The most recent statement makes no sense to me.

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It may mean that it was an external injury not an internal injury like choking would produce. They may not have bitten through her oesophagus, just the flesh on her throat. I can't believe I typed that.

 

[Jax49]

And that makes sense with an animal attack. The most recent statement makes no sense to me.

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I'm wondering if the recent statement just means she was not strangled. Not that there wasn't ANY damage in that area? moo

 

[JaneEyre]

In a situation like this, can we link to the dog's trainer's website? I'm trying to find out what training methodology was used. I saw it mentioned somewhere that she did dominance training, which IMO is dangerous and inhumane. It could be part of the puzzle here, along with the recent neglect, and the fact that one of the dogs came from an abusive home.

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[JaneEyre]

It may mean that it was an external injury not an internal injury like choking would produce. They may not have bitten through her oesophagus, just the flesh on her throat. I can't believe I typed that.

I don't see how a pit bull bites the throat and does no more than superficial damage. Pardon the graphic here, but it's also the most logical place for them to tear open first as well, as it's most likely exposed with no clothing covering it, and it's the perfect size to get a grip on. I'm ill thinking about it, but I have seen dogs attack one another and this is what they do rather than tear a stomach open first.

I am not drawing any specific conclusions from this, but just stating why this confuses me more.

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[JaneEyre]

I'm wondering if the recent statement just means she was not strangled. Not that there wasn't ANY damage in that area? moo

Well, they're making a mess of the situation the more they talk because it's not just unclear, it's completely contradictory.

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[Lilibet]

I'm wondering if the recent statement just means she was not strangled. Not that there wasn't ANY damage in that area? moo

That’s how I took the recent statement. He was listing the kinds of injuries a human would likely have inflicted and it seemed he was saying she was not strangled...that she didn’t have strangling type injuries to her throat area. LE had already said she had injuries to her neck and face from the dogs. So this was to make sure people understood that a human had not attacked her.

 

[Jennifer17]

I'm wondering if the recent statement just means she was not strangled. Not that there wasn't ANY damage in that area? moo

Blood in the oesophagus from strangling would be capillary blood, blood from an attack would be flowing blood from arteries. They can tell the difference.

 

[JaneEyre]

http://via.wtvr.com/tVQu5

ETA Also in this article, a neighbor heard screams in the woods but blew it off!

On the official Facebook page for this trainer, she's now saying she did not train the dogs. I don't know if I believe her, though, given previous statements. She may just be trying to save her business.

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[Jennifer17]

On the official Facebook page for this trainer, she's now saying she did not train the dogs. I don't know if I believe her, though, given previous statements. She may just be trying to save her business.

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Ultimately, it is up the owner. You can train dogs as much as you like, but if the owner doesn't follow through, it is not the trainers fault.

 

[JaneEyre]

Ultimately, it is up the owner. You can train dogs as much as you like, but if the owner doesn't follow through, it is not the trainers fault.

Absolutely. But I do wonder about the entire picture - the type of training and the level of neglect they were experiencing among other things.

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[Jennifer17]

My daughter took her dog (Border Collie) to training school and he was trained well...................but, he did it like tricks, he wouldn't do it when he had the adrenaline running. She never used it in a real life situation.

 

[DevilDogMoM]

http://via.wtvr.com/tVQu5

ETA Also in this article, a neighbor heard screams in the woods but blew it off!

Both red flags IMO.
First, If her dad didn't want to care for the dogs, why not just have them removed from his property & placed in a fostering situation vs. refusing to provide basic care? Nobody should have to take responsibility for something in which they are not obligated, however, it takes a certain kind of effort to willingly neglect a living being in need. Just a thought...

Second, I would explore the neighbor who heard the screams. This would not have been a kind, nor a speedy death. It would be helpful to know if any words were mixed in with those screams: like "HELP" or "NO, PAC-MAN" (for example)... Also helpful to know if animal fighting of sorts was heard or seen. Would expect instinct to be to look outside when hear cry for help. If not, then that's a red flag to me.

Third, I get that the Sheriff might have thought in his head they "look like fighting type dogs" but to say it out loud so early in an investigation almost seems like an intentional finger in the other direction, only to come out & have to correct himself soon after. Sort of the same feeling I got when he made reference to her menstrual cycle, but quickly followed with how it likely didn't play a part in the dogs attacking. ? Why are we talking about it then, other than to throw everyone off? IMO

 

[NightOwlDetective]

I'm sure my opinion will not be the popular one, but I do think it's important to see both sides of the coin.
I, unfortunately, do think her dogs may have killed her, especially if they were trained to fight. Things happen, and aggressive dogs tend to be aggressive in any stressful type situation.
BUT: Not all pits are mean and aggressive. I own a mixed doggie who is mostly pit. I got him when he was 1 1/2 yrs old. He's a rescue dog who was in a tornado that happened a few years ago. He is the sweetest dog I have ever met. Not only is he loving and caring, but I have been able to train him to be a therapy and service dog for myself and my autistic daughter. (He is a [in order of highest concentration] pit, lab, german shepherd, and mastiff mix) I had him trained once I discovered that he was very in tune with my illnesses, and he was able to stop me from falling one day when my knee gave out. After that, I had him trained. He now goes everywhere with me, knows how to bring my phone to me, can detect anxiety and panic attacks, and can let me know when my daughter is overstimulated and needs some time in her closet. (That's her safe nook. She takes a book in with her, and I've put a bunch of pillows and blankets in there for her. She literally will stay in there for an hour or two with the door shut just reading her books.) I know my dog may be the minority within the breed, but I have never seen him be aggressive. He allows my two daughters (8&10) to pile pillows and blankets on top of him with his head sticking out. He's so patient with my youngest, especially when she is having a hard time and ends up on the floor screaming her head off because she doesn't know how else to express her frustration and need for soothing/calm activities due to overstimulation.
Anyway, I don't want people to read this thread and immediately think that pits are dogs that have to be feared. Especially when so many of them really aren't aggressive. Are the non-aggressive dogs rare? Probably. But they are out there. My doggo is absolutely incredible, and I'd be seriously hurt if I didn't have him around to help me out, notify my neighbors of emergencies, and to help my daughter stay calm so she can verbally express frustration.

That's just my two cents about my experience with pits. Not everyone will have this same experience. I really think that they can be raised to be very good dogs. They are extremely loyal and caring. (And maybe it's the lab that my dog gets this from? Maybe he only got the boxy head and broad shoulders from the pit and nothing else?)

I've enjoyed reading and learning on this thread! I feel so sorry for that girl's family. I couldn't even imagine how they feel, especially towards those dogs! Thankfully, those dogs have been put down. Any animal that attacks someone should be put down, IMO. If my dog bit someone, I would put him down. I'd be sad, of course, but that's what you have to come to terms with when you are the owner of a large dog. :beagle:

 

[Lilibet]

I'm sure my opinion will not be the popular one, but I do think it's important to see both sides of the coin.
I, unfortunately, do think her dogs may have killed her, especially if they were trained to fight. Things happen, and aggressive dogs tend to be aggressive in any stressful type situation.
BUT: Not all pits are mean and aggressive. I own a mixed doggie who is mostly pit. I got him when he was 1 1/2 yrs old. He's a rescue dog who was in a tornado that happened a few years ago. He is the sweetest dog I have ever met. Not only is he loving and caring, but I have been able to train him to be a therapy and service dog for myself and my autistic daughter. (He is a [in order of highest concentration] pit, lab, german shepherd, and mastiff mix) I had him trained once I discovered that he was very in tune with my illnesses, and he was able to stop me from falling one day when my knee gave out. After that, I had him trained. He now goes everywhere with me, knows how to bring my phone to me, can detect anxiety and panic attacks, and can let me know when my daughter is overstimulated and needs some time in her closet. (That's her safe nook. She takes a book in with her, and I've put a bunch of pillows and blankets in there for her. She literally will stay in there for an hour or two with the door shut just reading her books.) I know my dog may be the minority within the breed, but I have never seen him be aggressive. He allows my two daughters (8&10) to pile pillows and blankets on top of him with his head sticking out. He's so patient with my youngest, especially when she is having a hard time and ends up on the floor screaming her head off because she doesn't know how else to express her frustration and need for soothing/calm activities due to overstimulation.
Anyway, I don't want people to read this thread and immediately think that pits are dogs that have to be feared. Especially when so many of them really aren't aggressive. Are the non-aggressive dogs rare? Probably. But they are out there. My doggo is absolutely incredible, and I'd be seriously hurt if I didn't have him around to help me out, notify my neighbors of emergencies, and to help my daughter stay calm so she can verbally express frustration.

That's just my two cents about my experience with pits. Not everyone will have this same experience. I really think that they can be raised to be very good dogs. They are extremely loyal and caring. (And maybe it's the lab that my dog gets this from? Maybe he only got the boxy head and broad shoulders from the pit and nothing else?)

I've enjoyed reading and learning on this thread! I feel so sorry for that girl's family. I couldn't even imagine how they feel, especially towards those dogs! Thankfully, those dogs have been put down. Any animal that attacks someone should be put down, IMO. If my dog bit someone, I would put him down. I'd be sad, of course, but that's what you have to come to terms with when you are the owner of a large dog. :beagle:

What a lovely post. Your dog sounds like a gem and your family is fortunate to have found such a great dog.

 

[JaneEyre]

I'm sure my opinion will not be the popular one, but I do think it's important to see both sides of the coin.
I, unfortunately, do think her dogs may have killed her, especially if they were trained to fight. Things happen, and aggressive dogs tend to be aggressive in any stressful type situation.
BUT: Not all pits are mean and aggressive. I own a mixed doggie who is mostly pit. I got him when he was 1 1/2 yrs old. He's a rescue dog who was in a tornado that happened a few years ago. He is the sweetest dog I have ever met. Not only is he loving and caring, but I have been able to train him to be a therapy and service dog for myself and my autistic daughter. (He is a [in order of highest concentration] pit, lab, german shepherd, and mastiff mix) I had him trained once I discovered that he was very in tune with my illnesses, and he was able to stop me from falling one day when my knee gave out. After that, I had him trained. He now goes everywhere with me, knows how to bring my phone to me, can detect anxiety and panic attacks, and can let me know when my daughter is overstimulated and needs some time in her closet. (That's her safe nook. She takes a book in with her, and I've put a bunch of pillows and blankets in there for her. She literally will stay in there for an hour or two with the door shut just reading her books.) I know my dog may be the minority within the breed, but I have never seen him be aggressive. He allows my two daughters (8&10) to pile pillows and blankets on top of him with his head sticking out. He's so patient with my youngest, especially when she is having a hard time and ends up on the floor screaming her head off because she doesn't know how else to express her frustration and need for soothing/calm activities due to overstimulation.
Anyway, I don't want people to read this thread and immediately think that pits are dogs that have to be feared. Especially when so many of them really aren't aggressive. Are the non-aggressive dogs rare? Probably. But they are out there. My doggo is absolutely incredible, and I'd be seriously hurt if I didn't have him around to help me out, notify my neighbors of emergencies, and to help my daughter stay calm so she can verbally express frustration.

That's just my two cents about my experience with pits. Not everyone will have this same experience. I really think that they can be raised to be very good dogs. They are extremely loyal and caring. (And maybe it's the lab that my dog gets this from? Maybe he only got the boxy head and broad shoulders from the pit and nothing else?)

I've enjoyed reading and learning on this thread! I feel so sorry for that girl's family. I couldn't even imagine how they feel, especially towards those dogs! Thankfully, those dogs have been put down. Any animal that attacks someone should be put down, IMO. If my dog bit someone, I would put him down. I'd be sad, of course, but that's what you have to come to terms with when you are the owner of a large dog. :beagle:

I actually think your dog is not in the minority for the breed. The majority of pits are very good dogs, in my experience. We also had one go on to become a certified therapy dog. Their main problem is that many tend to have aggression towards other dogs. The majority I have rescued have not, but I see a lot in need of rescue who have this issue, making them very hard to place. Still, I'd sooner trust a pit around my cats than a coon hound. My primary reason for not having one now is my back issues and their high energy level and strength on a leash.

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[gitana1]

I had a cat like that. Most of the time he was the sweetest boy, but sometimes at night, when he wanted to go out and was not allowed out at night and he knew that he wasn't allowed, just when I would get up to go to bed, he would get the big dilated pupil, evil look and get between me and the doorway into the hall and attack my legs. I could usually get past him, but he used to scare me.

Baggins is insane. He loves his mama but he's just crazy. If he was a dog he'd be the type to turn on me I fear. He has so much testosterone. Even after getting him fixed. He is desperate to fight. He has gotten out a few times and is fearless. Just tears through the neighborhood on a panting, manic rampage. Jumps over fences and onto roofs with no caution at all. And instantly attacks any cat he sees.

Hes the worst cat I've ever had but he's also super funny and cuddly and I love him to bits.

But our pets will always have some of the wild in them. And they can have instincts that overcome their love for us. It's unusual but it can happen.

 

[bears10]

The issue with there being no injury to the throat confuses me even further. When dogs attack to kill, they go for the throat, at least with other animals from what I have personally seen. It is very odd to me that at some point they did not even touch the throat.

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LE said the dogs went straight for her jugular and she didn’t experience any pain bc of it. Jugular is throat IMO


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[gitana1]

In a situation like this, can we link to the dog's trainer's website? I'm trying to find out what training methodology was used. I saw it mentioned somewhere that she did dominance training, which IMO is dangerous and inhumane. It could be part of the puzzle here, along with the recent neglect, and the fact that one of the dogs came from an abusive home.

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Can you link to a site that discusses dominance training just so I know what it is? It doesn't have to be related to this case.

 

[Jennifer17]

Baggins is insane. He loves his mama but he's just crazy. If he was a dog he'd be the type to turn on me I fear. He has so much testosterone. Even after getting him fixed. He is desperate to fight. He has gotten out a few times and is fearless. Just tears through the neighborhood on a panting, manic rampage. Jumps over fences and onto roofs with no caution at all. And instantly attacks any cat he sees.

Hes the worst cat I've ever had but he's also super funny and cuddly and I love him to bits.

But our pets will always have some of the wild in them. And they can have instincts that overcome their love for us. It's unusual but it can happen.

Does he come home with wounds? We are not allowed to let our cats out at night because they kill wildlife.

 

[gitana1]

I'm sure my opinion will not be the popular one, but I do think it's important to see both sides of the coin.
I, unfortunately, do think her dogs may have killed her, especially if they were trained to fight. Things happen, and aggressive dogs tend to be aggressive in any stressful type situation.
BUT: Not all pits are mean and aggressive. I own a mixed doggie who is mostly pit. I got him when he was 1 1/2 yrs old. He's a rescue dog who was in a tornado that happened a few years ago. He is the sweetest dog I have ever met. Not only is he loving and caring, but I have been able to train him to be a therapy and service dog for myself and my autistic daughter. (He is a [in order of highest concentration] pit, lab, german shepherd, and mastiff mix) I had him trained once I discovered that he was very in tune with my illnesses, and he was able to stop me from falling one day when my knee gave out. After that, I had him trained. He now goes everywhere with me, knows how to bring my phone to me, can detect anxiety and panic attacks, and can let me know when my daughter is overstimulated and needs some time in her closet. (That's her safe nook. She takes a book in with her, and I've put a bunch of pillows and blankets in there for her. She literally will stay in there for an hour or two with the door shut just reading her books.) I know my dog may be the minority within the breed, but I have never seen him be aggressive. He allows my two daughters (8&10) to pile pillows and blankets on top of him with his head sticking out. He's so patient with my youngest, especially when she is having a hard time and ends up on the floor screaming her head off because she doesn't know how else to express her frustration and need for soothing/calm activities due to overstimulation.
Anyway, I don't want people to read this thread and immediately think that pits are dogs that have to be feared. Especially when so many of them really aren't aggressive. Are the non-aggressive dogs rare? Probably. But they are out there. My doggo is absolutely incredible, and I'd be seriously hurt if I didn't have him around to help me out, notify my neighbors of emergencies, and to help my daughter stay calm so she can verbally express frustration.

That's just my two cents about my experience with pits. Not everyone will have this same experience. I really think that they can be raised to be very good dogs. They are extremely loyal and caring. (And maybe it's the lab that my dog gets this from? Maybe he only got the boxy head and broad shoulders from the pit and nothing else?)

I've enjoyed reading and learning on this thread! I feel so sorry for that girl's family. I couldn't even imagine how they feel, especially towards those dogs! Thankfully, those dogs have been put down. Any animal that attacks someone should be put down, IMO. If my dog bit someone, I would put him down. I'd be sad, of course, but that's what you have to come to terms with when you are the owner of a large dog. :beagle:

Great, balanced post. Thanks for that.