IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #78

[Tricia]

Any off topic posts will receive an automatic time out

 

[Sleuthin' n TX]

Carried over from the previous thread...



I don't watch Dr. Phil, either, but I watch a lot of other TV. Yes, it's common, especially if it's a name or a face that has become synonymous with the case. Holeman, Carter, Riley, Leazenby...these are names that we are familiar with. The show would've worked hard to get them on there. I think the other thing, too, is that this case has blown up in social media. With so many rumors, fabrications, theories, etc, floating around it would've been prudent to have an "authority" figure of sorts on there to help lend credence to whatever information or facts they presented.

I have tiny amount of experience of being on television (and one experience of appearing on an national television show-I mean, it was the Syfy channel, but it still kind of worked the same way). In each instance, they worked VERY hard to include "professional" or people to create the atmosphere of an official conversation. This helps keep the conversation from turning into sensationalism.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but Sgt. Carter said he wanted people to "trust" their institution when trying to get that particular someone to give them a tip. Very interesting to think of that one word and how it may translate to the public. Why would he say that? Does that indicate potential illegal activity by that particular individual? IMO, yes. What about everyone else? TIA

 

[Boxer]

I can think of another reason. If there was someone close to me that I could believe might be capable of murdering someone for no apparent reason, I wouldn't turn them in unless I was absolutely sure he was guilty. I'd hate to think about what he might do if he found out that I'd falsely accused him of something like this. MOO

Whether or not DN is involved, IMO this would be the dilemma KN was in - if she saw the sketch.
It looks like him, he is terrifying and will injure you in a rage, but she can expect an endless death threat if she contacted the police and he gets out.

 

[No it's not]

By chance I think I saw KN yesterday while I was out running errands. She must have a set of wheels now and she's about as gangsta looking as DN. Blood red hair and mean looking. They are a pair. I bet if LE charged her with providing a weapon to a felon she would fill in those blank spots quick.

Always remember that LE is under no obligation to tell the public the truth. Think about that when referring to anything they have said.

I would also like to point out that DN has spent a good amount of time behind bars in IN prisons which are a breeding ground for the Saxon Knights. I'm bringing this up because it wasn't long ago that here in CO we had our state prison chief assassinated by a white supremacist gang member who was released from prison and given orders to kill him as part of a much larger plot. In fact the assassin was the son of the good friend of our Governor, and who by all accounts never should have been out of prison in the first place. Not only was the prison chief executed, but an innocent pizza delivery driver was also, simply to obtain his uniform. So motives for the murders in Delphi may not be what they appear to be. (In fact this assassination occurred less than 10 miles from where DN is suspected of killing TW at Mt Herman.)

The point is, if DN was in prison, was unemployed and in need of cash, there is no telling what he was up to in IN and it very well could be that he was in Delphi on that day perhaps fulfilling some obligation he had to other people. Until he and KN provide an alibi you cannot rule DN out and don't be afraid to think outside the box that LE, media and web mods tell you exists.

With all that said, after studying the area, watching videos, etc.... I would have to agree that whoever did this probably knew the area well enough to know where they could take the girls and get away with something like this, or they are just damn lucky because that's about the only spot where someone could have taken those girls and not have been near a home or seen from a road.
My thoughts are:

• The suspect waited and watched until the time was right. He saw his victims and knew there were no witnesses returning from the other end of the bridge.
• The girls were herded to the end of the bridge where the suspect knew they would be trapped and could not turn around.
• There most likely was another suspect waiting "down the hill", else the girls would have had the opportunity to run down the driveway that they would have had to have crossed before reaching the creek. The house at the end of that driveway is not that far away.
• The murder occurred in a very small window of time, possibly 30-45 minutes.
• There is a large bridge under a highway not far away, on the other side of the nature preserve, that looks livable and could be home to vagrants not regularly seen in Delphi.
• There are 4 homeless shelters not far from Delhi.
• BG was not overweight, those are items stuffed into his jacket. Probably duct tape, trash bags, change of clothes and weapons.
• The BG hat is just a camo baseball hat turned backwards.
• How does someone who is wet possibly with blood all over themselves walk back to a car at a parking lot where people are looking for lost girls? they don't.
• DN is the prime suspect in the murder of TW and he is hatchet man.
• DN could be guilty of many other murders we are not aware of.
• Even KN says BG looks like DN, but so do a lot of other homeless white men.
• The Nations were in Denver May 14th according to KN's FB posts, but left Indiana in late April. Where were they those missing 2-3 weeks and are there more victims along their travel path to Colorado?
• In the same May FB post KN says they were robbed of all their money on their way to CO. Another lie? probably.
• DN was arrested after returning to the scene of his crime in SC, and now CO. It is his pattern.
• There is the lingering question of what is similar between the two cases. I believe that to be the COD, and if it is what I suspect then DN would be a prime suspect in the Delphi killings as well.

That scenario would be based on the assumption, that it was a MFH (who and why?). Also, the girls' decision to go to the bridge that Monday seems to have come out of the blue, or at least that's what's being reported by family members. Understandably we cannot go there. We have to also weigh the possibility, that the decision to go out to the bridge may have been planned by the kids in advance, but had been kept from family members.

We - the public- just don't know.

All IMO of course.

-Nin

 

[MistyWaters]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but Sgt. Carter said he wanted people to "trust" their institution when trying to get that particular someone to give them a tip. Very interesting to think of that one word and how it may translate to the public. Why would he say that? Does that indicate potential illegal activity by that particular individual? IMO, yes. What about everyone else? TIA

JMO but trusting ones intuition expresses the same sort of feeling as having a hunch, sneaking suspicion, or sixth sense - an uneasy sort of niggling feeling that arises from time to time in everyday life about something that just doesn't seem right. For example sometimes people sense something is just off in a relationship but they can't put their finger on it. Later they learn their partner is seeing someone else. That early instinctive feeling, without any actual evidence is an example of trusting ones intuition.

So LE is asking to talk to people who personally know somebody else in a similar manner, who might've been involved in this case, without the expectation that the tipster is aware of any other concrete evidence.

 

[Jerrod]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but Sgt. Carter said he wanted people to "trust" their institution when trying to get that particular someone to give them a tip. Very interesting to think of that one word and how it may translate to the public. Why would he say that? Does that indicate potential illegal activity by that particular individual? IMO, yes. What about everyone else? TIA

JMO but trusting ones intuition expresses the same sort of feeling as having a hunch, sneaking suspicion, or sixth sense - an uneasy sort of niggling feeling that arises from time to time in everyday life about something that just doesn't seem right. For example sometimes people sense something is just off in a relationship but they can't put their finger on it. Later they learn their partner is seeing someone else. That early instinctive feeling, without any actual evidence is an example of trusting ones intuition.

So LE is asking to talk to people who personally know somebody else in a similar manner, who might've been involved in this case, without the expectation that the tipster is aware of any other concrete evidence.

"Institution", not "intuition". ISP Carter said this:

“What I need for people to do is trust who we are. There are lots of reasons not to - and I understand that - but trust who we are.”

I believe it's because there's a general mistrust of LE, especially after they did a drug sweep under the pretense of looking for the girls' killer.

 

[MistyWaters]

Something I wonder about.....

My scenario is purely speculative. Someone suspects somebody is BG but has no real evidence. Someone could be a wife, mother, brother, child, coworker, neighbour, anybody, doesn't really matter. But say that someone is somewhat fearful of the person whom they suspect and they realize it is not likely LE will have enough evidence to immediately lay charges. They are extremely concerned that if LE comes knocking on the door just to talk to him, he will suspect who tipped off LE. As a result of their suspicion they fear at the very least an extremely difficult relationship going forward, if not outright malicious retaliation.

So that same fear is expressed to LE who in turn becomes equally concerned about a way to approach the situation in order to ensure the confidentiality of the tipster.

How would that play out? Would LE watch and patiently wait until an opportunity arose for the POI to be arrested for some sort of unrelated minor infraction and then question him about the Delphi case as a matter of investigative routine?

Does anybody else know or wonder how LE would proceed in such a scenario?

 

[Boxer]

under his coat, to free both hands

. MOO

That might mean the white objects visible from his jacket might be the white webbing handles of a small duffel.

 

[MistyWaters]

"Institution", not "intuition". ISP Carter said this:

“What I need for people to do is trust who we are. There are lots of reasons not to - and I understand that - but trust who we are.”

I believe it's because there's a general mistrust of LE, especially after they did a drug sweep under the pretense of looking for the girls' killer.

Thanks, I misread while thinking about something different.

 

[Boxer]

Sorry if it's been discussed, but if IN LE claim to have DN's DNA, despite DN saying he did not give it, is it possible they got DNA from his children who are in CO state custody?

1.) http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...swers-soon-delphi-double-homicides/713451001/

He (Riley) said police also have obtained samples of Nations' DNA, which has become a common procedure over the course of the seven-month-long investigation. He added that the samples will be compared to evidence gathered at the crime scene.

"We check DNA on everybody that has been investigated," Riley said. "Every person that we have talked to, we've gotten a DNA swab from."

2.) http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-familial25-2008nov25-story.html (article about familial DNA testing)

(2008) Since then, however, Denver investigators tested their new familial software by running DNA from all unsolved crimes through a local database. Such repositories, often administered by municipal l law enforcement agencies, are not subject to the rules that govern state and federal databases.

Without leaving their desks, investigators used the relatives to trace a handful of suspects.

- edited for formatting issues

DN said his public defender turned LE away, this does not seem too far fetched. It may or may not be true.

According to DN, he turned the Indiana police away (blamed his attorney) -no way to know if a truthful statement.
However it its likely that he did turn them away, and likely he didn't talk to the CO police either.
DN probably has calculated it is best to wait to be charged and then wrangle the best plea deal he can. He has lots of experience with the system, delaying and evading consequences.

By law since 2009 all felony arrests in CO have a DNA taken.
IMO we can reasonably assume the DNA was taken during DNs CO felony menacing arrest.
The DNA by procedure should have been followed and DN entered into the CO state database. CODIS is combination of state and federal databases and available to all LE.

Familial databasing is a good idea -- and I hope it can be of help here sometime.

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/new-colorado-law-requires-dna-tests-in-felony-arrests/

 

[TheVisual]

Something I wonder about.....

My scenario is purely speculative. Someone suspects somebody is BG but has no real evidence. Someone could be a wife, mother, brother, child, coworker, neighbour, anybody, doesn't really matter. But say that someone is somewhat fearful of the person whom they suspect and they realize it is not likely LE will have enough evidence to immediately lay charges. They are extremely concerned that if LE comes knocking on the door just to talk to him, he will suspect who tipped off LE. As a result of their suspicion they fear at the very least an extremely difficult relationship going forward, if not outright malicious retaliation.

So that same fear is expressed to LE who in turn becomes equally concerned about a way to approach the situation in order to ensure the confidentiality of the tipster.

How would that play out? Would LE watch and patiently wait until an opportunity arose for the POI to be arrested for some sort of unrelated minor infraction and then question him about the Delphi case as a matter of investigative routine?
Does anybody else know or wonder how LE would proceed in such a scenario?

I would be interested in any responses to this scenario.

 

[mtnlites]

"Institution", not "intuition". ISP Carter said this:

“What I need for people to do is trust who we are. There are lots of reasons not to - and I understand that - but trust who we are.”

I believe it's because there's a general mistrust of LE, especially after they did a drug sweep under the pretense of looking for the girls' killer.

This is what I believe they were saying as well-to trust LE and to trust the system because it WILL work.

 

[Boxer]

This is what I believe they were saying as well-to trust LE and to trust the system because it WILL work.

I think the statement that "definitely not blue eyes" points to the suspect being on a pupil dilating substance making it hard to see specifics of any darker color of iris at the time he was seen. This would mean BG was a drug user and on the substance at the time. It also means he gets drugs from somewhere, some other drug users and is known to them.

Popular drugs that enlarge pupils are THC, Meth, and cocaine.

 

[TeaTime]

Logansport had a mental hospital? Hmmm.

HIPPA?

Chewing on this one.

 

[newredtabby]

I think the statement that "definitely not blue eyes" points to the suspect being on a pupil dilating substance making it hard to see specifics of any darker color of iris at the time he was seen. This would mean BG was a drug user and on the substance at the time. It also means he gets drugs from somewhere, some other drug users and is known to them.

Popular drugs that enlarge pupils are THC, Meth, and cocaine.

“Definitelt not blue” would mean they were another color. Another color would be hard to see with dilated eyes as well, so I don’t follow your logic.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ocgrad]

I think that is likely. The coat looks well oversized for the BG to me.... the overly bunched up sleeves appear too long for him. Possibly not his coat? Most people likely don’t wear a coat large enough to fit their person and a duffel bag inside. Could the BG also have stashed the bag along his getaway route or at the scene where he would eventually take the victims? If bag is in his coat, that suggests to me a lack of planning... that this was an impulsive act. If the bag was purposefully placed elsewhere, i.e. the crime scene, then this was pre-planned and the BG knew the area well. All speculation of course.

MOO

Maybe a coat BG took out of someone's nearby barn.

 

[Boxer]

“Definitelt not blue” would mean they were another color. Another color would be hard to see with dilated eyes as well, so I don’t follow your logic.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I mean with dilated pupils any other color than blue (mid to light blue at that) would be very hard to see. Meaning the witness would say something to the effect "I dont know the eye color, but it was not blue"

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo but LE finally says something definitive (that they have DN's DNA) and folks question it.

 

[pillywiggin]

That scenario would be based on the assumption, that it was a MFH (who and why?).

RSBM : Please tell me what MFH stands for. I looked on the Lingo thread, but did not find it. Thanks for your help.

 

[ocgrad]

By chance I think I saw KN yesterday while I was out running errands. She must have a set of wheels now and she's about as gangsta looking as DN. Blood red hair and mean looking. They are a pair. I bet if LE charged her with providing a weapon to a felon she would fill in those blank spots quick.

Always remember that LE is under no obligation to tell the public the truth. Think about that when referring to anything they have said.

I would also like to point out that DN has spent a good amount of time behind bars in IN prisons which are a breeding ground for the Saxon Knights. I'm bringing this up because it wasn't long ago that here in CO we had our state prison chief assassinated by a white supremacist gang member who was released from prison and given orders to kill him as part of a much larger plot. In fact the assassin was the son of the good friend of our Governor, and who by all accounts never should have been out of prison in the first place. Not only was the prison chief executed, but an innocent pizza delivery driver was also, simply to obtain his uniform. So motives for the murders in Delphi may not be what they appear to be. (In fact this assassination occurred less than 10 miles from where DN is suspected of killing TW at Mt Herman.)

The point is, if DN was in prison, was unemployed and in need of cash, there is no telling what he was up to in IN and it very well could be that he was in Delphi on that day perhaps fulfilling some obligation he had to other people. Until he and KN provide an alibi you cannot rule DN out and don't be afraid to think outside the box that LE, media and web mods tell you exists.

With all that said, after studying the area, watching videos, etc.... I would have to agree that whoever did this probably knew the area well enough to know where they could take the girls and get away with something like this, or they are just damn lucky because that's about the only spot where someone could have taken those girls and not have been near a home or seen from a road.
My thoughts are:

• The suspect waited and watched until the time was right. He saw his victims and knew there were no witnesses returning from the other end of the bridge.
• The girls were herded to the end of the bridge where the suspect knew they would be trapped and could not turn around.
• There most likely was another suspect waiting "down the hill", else the girls would have had the opportunity to run down the driveway that they would have had to have crossed before reaching the creek. The house at the end of that driveway is not that far away.
• The murder occurred in a very small window of time, possibly 30-45 minutes.
• There is a large bridge under a highway not far away, on the other side of the nature preserve, that looks livable and could be home to vagrants not regularly seen in Delphi.
• There are 4 homeless shelters not far from Delhi.
• BG was not overweight, those are items stuffed into his jacket. Probably duct tape, trash bags, change of clothes and weapons.
• The BG hat is just a camo baseball hat turned backwards.
• How does someone who is wet possibly with blood all over themselves walk back to a car at a parking lot where people are looking for lost girls? they don't.
• DN is the prime suspect in the murder of TW and he is hatchet man.
• DN could be guilty of many other murders we are not aware of.
• Even KN says BG looks like DN, but so do a lot of other homeless white men.
• The Nations were in Denver May 14th according to KN's FB posts, but left Indiana in late April. Where were they those missing 2-3 weeks and are there more victims along their travel path to Colorado?
• In the same May FB post KN says they were robbed of all their money on their way to CO. Another lie? probably.
• DN was arrested after returning to the scene of his crime in SC, and now CO. It is his pattern.
• There is the lingering question of what is similar between the two cases. I believe that to be the COD, and if it is what I suspect then DN would be a prime suspect in the Delphi killings as well.

Good post IMO. It is good to hear how KN is perceived when out and about. I didn't realize DN was caught in SC returning to the scene.
I can't find the article now but it was reported that ISP went to his hotel to interview him, I believe when they were canvassing the state checking with virtually all RSO, I think that first visit was May 1 or 2nd but it could have been the end of April, he didn't answer, they called the office to confirm he lived there and the landlord told them yes he did. They came back on May 12 and again no answer and the landlord said he had moved out. We don't know when he left, but I have always thought he got spooked when he found out LE had come by to talk to him and he used his brother's murder as an excuse.
I completely agree about BG walking back to a vehicle along the trail after wading the creek and committing a double murder. The statement that the sketch came from witnesses who saw BG leaving the area has been rattling around in my head. We tend to think in normal terms that people leave by walking back down the trail and back to their vehicle in the parking lot. But this can't be what was meant. Perhaps someone remembered a hitchhiker, someone in a vehicle on the road under the bridge, a man they saw leaving the Mears property across the road. Even if he took off the coat he had borrowed I don't see him just walking back down the trail.
And I have also wondered about their trip from IN to CO. In a normal trip you would expect KN to post pictures of the sights or of them on the way there since they were going to start fresh.
The only thing I might disagree with you on is the COD connection to TW. He was killed with a .22, right? Of course we don't know the girls COD. But LE spokesperson said there are many similarities.
So you are in CO. I don't understand the charge of having the weapon at a college. Is there a college adjoining the camping area so that if he just drove around a bit he would have inadvertently been on campus without even realizing it? Or was he seen on surveillance doing something with his weapon on a college campus? Thanks in advance for any insight you have for that scenario.