FL - 17 killed in Stoneman Douglas H.S. shooting, Parkland, 14 Feb 2018 #2 *Arrest*

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Mental illness in itself doesn't prevent someone from being found guilty, regardless of whether it can be treated or not. He'd have to be found legally insane, which isn't the same as mentally ill.

That's true. It would be safe to say that most people who commit murders are mentally ill in some form or fashion. This guy even thought he would get away with his crime by sneaking out the door with crowds of students.
 
Mental illness in itself doesn't prevent someone from being found guilty, regardless of whether it can be treated or not. He'd have to be found legally insane, which isn't the same as mentally ill.

No, but the question was that if he was found to be mentally ill, could he be rehabilitated and eventually released back into society.

And the answer is "it depends". Of the three conditions so far mentioned in connection with Cruz only one (the OCD) is clearly recognised, AFAIK, as a mental illness so only that one would be considered in connection with whether he is mentally ill or not.
 
No, but the question was that if he was found to be mentally ill, could he be rehabilitated and eventually released back into society.

And the answer is "it depends". Of the three conditions so far mentioned in connection with Cruz only one (the OCD) is clearly recognised, AFAIK, as a mental illness so only that one would be considered in connection with whether he is mentally ill or not.

He'd have to be found not guilty by reason of insanity, not just mentally ill. There are lots of people in prison with mental illness.
 
What term do you hear then that covers "profound" or "severe" autism? Because since the condition is a spectrum there must by definition be individuals at either end of it.



Define "good grades" please, because everything I've seen and read about autism is that it is a developmental delay, one in which the individual falls behind his or her peers and never catches up because they cannot catch up, even though they may make progress measured against themselves.

The profoundly or severely autistic individual I am personally aware of is the son of a friend of mine who was permanently hospitalised as a young teenager and remains doubly incontinent, non-verbal, prone to violent tantrums and self harm and has an intellectual age of 5 or 6. He happens to be 30 this year.

The idea of this man getting good grades at school is so far wide of reality that it's tragic.

You need to read more then. My niece is Autistic and is a student at the top engineering university in NJ. She is incredibly bright.

I’m so surprised at the misconceptions of autism in this thread. It’s honestly cringey to read.
 
I just learned that Chris Hixon, the athletic director who died has a sister in our school district here in Michigan. The community is pulling together to get her and other family down to Florida for the funeral.

:rose:

http://www.monroenews.com/news/20180216/florida-shooting-victim-had-sister-at-bedford-schools
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Chris Hixon, the athletic director at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, was the brother of Natalie Hixon, a teacher in Bedford Public Schools.[/FONT]
 
You need to read more then. My niece is Autistic and is a student at the top engineering university in NJ. She is incredibly bright.

I’m so surprised at the misconceptions of autism in this thread. It’s honestly cringey to read.

Yes, autism is a wide umbrella and a lot of people are included. Some could be very highly functional and get good grades. And some are non-verbal.
 
I know what you mean and agree 1000%. There are so many pockets of safety that are lost to our children. I will say that the lives of many children have not been so easy over time--- in the 1960s and 1970s we had our neighborhood pedophile who abused little girls and was the great neighbor that lent those same girls parents his garden tools--whenever he was caught he cried to the parent and the police--- and everyone was silent letting future little girls get fondled and abused by him. I am sad that it is just one more thing but there have been lots of things for kids over time.

Been there - ours was a next door neighbor who liked to lift us little girls up to "look into his boat" and with parents standing right there managed to get his finger inside us. Telling our parents back in the day did no good, just as you describe. Oh Pete wouldn't do that- he's such a *nice* man. And that took care of that.
 
Sorry to take this thread off track- will be good now and comment only on related topics!
 
Been there - ours was a next door neighbor who liked to lift us little girls up to "look into his boat" and with parents standing right there managed to get his finger inside us. Telling our parents back in the day did no good, just as you describe. Oh Pete wouldn't do that- he's such a *nice* man. And that took care of that.

Grotesque. I am so sorry that happened.
 
I agree with the above about working parents. I feel every home should have one parent there, be it dad or mom. JMO. I have been fortunate to be able to be that parent in my house.

I have to weigh in. Both my sons went to ‘day care’. I had to work. No choice. Neither one turned out to be anything but productive wonderful adults. Children can be loved by others, not just their parents. IMO


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I have to weigh in. Both my sons went to ‘day care’. I had to work. No choice. Neither one turned out to be anything but productive wonderful adults. Children can be loved by others, not just their parents. IMO


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Well, exactly. I don't think one parent working or not working has anything with this.
 
Since he is still alive, maybe they can study him and learn more about the (why).
Not only him, but others who have committed similar mass killings.
THERE is a diagnosis there and it goes WAY beyond "Autistic" or "Aspergers" or "Attachment Disorder" IMO.
They are EVIL and homicidal... I can't even begin to understand what drives them to want to kill innocent people.
Moo

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It appears that no matter what label or diagnosis is put on N.C., there will be defenders of such regardless of the carnage because of their defense of their own limited experiences.
What I’m concerned with is the process of protecting our society at large from identified and reported harmful, threatening, or hostile individuals (regardless of their labels/diagnosis). If a person causes self harm, makes threats to others, bleeds himself on Snapchat, openly bangs his head on cement walls, harms animals, threatens to shoot people openly on social media, calls his own mother & siblings horrendous names......this individual must be put into the hands of authorities to investigate & take further action upon. There is a point where ones civil liberties must be removed for the sake of society. Fact. And it needs to be spoken about, plan formulated, action taken. No more Lanza or Cruz’s for us to be living amongst open society to be afraid of. Nope. We’re done....quite honestly, we’ve been victimized and held hostage by the lack of resolution whereby our well-being is being jeopardized daily. We are all victims.
We need a process of identification, reporting, findings, and action taken. It’s simple solution seeking.
We must find a protocol....we must find a solution. We must protect our rights of living in our society. We must identify dangers and action taken appropriately by the authorities mandated to do such. We have a right to feel reasonably safe.
 
You need to read more then. My niece is Autistic and is a student at the top engineering university in NJ. She is incredibly bright.

I don't think anyone, me included, has ever suggested that autism manifests in a single manner or that all autistic people have the same experience with autism.

The young man I mentioned above is one of three brothers who are all autistic but all affected to different degrees. One is very mildly affected, obtained a degree from a good red brick university, has held down various jobs and has recently broken up with his girlfriend. The third is moderately affected and lives at home. He has never been able to complete further education, lives in his room as a techie hermit, has never had a girlfriend and will probably never be able to live independently.

Three brothers, all very differently affected by autism.

Their mother is ridiculously bright (probably an IQ of 160+), has a diagnosis of Asperger's and a degree in maths. I could say more about her but it could be rather outing.
 
It appears that no matter what label or diagnosis is put on N.C., there will be defenders of such regardless of the carnage because of their defense of their own limited experiences.
What I’m concerned with is the process of protecting our society at large from identified and reported harmful, threatening, or hostile individuals (regardless of their labels/diagnosis). If a person causes self harm, makes threats to others, bleeds himself on Snapchat, openly bangs his head on cement walls, harms animals, threatens to shoot people openly on social media, calls his own mother & siblings horrendous names......this individual must be put into the hands of authorities to investigate & take further action upon. There is a point where ones civil liberties must be removed for the sake of society. Fact. And it needs to be spoken about, plan formulated, action taken. No more Lanza or Cruz’s for us to be living amongst open society to be afraid of. Nope. We’re done....quite honestly, we’ve been victimized and held hostage by the lack of resolution whereby our well-being is being jeopardized daily. We are all victims.
We need a process of identification, reporting, findings, and action taken. It’s simple solution seeking.
We must find a protocol....we must find a solution. We must protect our rights of living in our society. We must identify dangers and action taken appropriately by the authorities mandated to do such. We have a right to feel reasonably safe.

well said. Why should one unstable persons rights superceed everyone else's?
 
You need to read more then. My niece is Autistic and is a student at the top engineering university in NJ. She is incredibly bright.

I’m so surprised at the misconceptions of autism in this thread. It’s honestly cringey to read.


I may be misunderstanding your reply, but are you meaning to say that all/most with a diagnosis of autism can become highly educated like your niece? Surely you do recognize not all autistic children are going to be educable, any more so than other students, yes? What “misconceptions” are you referring to, if you don’t mind answering. I am interested.

We have a cousin’s child who was diagnosed with autism @ age 4 and his level of control seems to have never curbed his violence toward others. You cannot look him in the eye nor speak to him without upsetting him. He grew into adulthood as a large man, and family could no longer handle him when he became angry and lashed out, at himself or others. I do not know what educational level he may have achieved, he could not attend “regular classroom settings”, but he now, at age 30s, lives in residential care with 24-hour supervision.
 
How things that have changed...

1. Breakdown of the nuclear family - many, many causes... Levittown, the first modern suburb, with houses too small for extended family members, prior it was not uncommon for multiple generations to live under one roof, and Levittown was only possible because the automobile became ubiquitous. Increasing numbers of women in the workforce, not only because it pulled women out of the home and role of primary caregiver, but because it made divorce more affordable, more common, and less stigmatized. It also made it economically possible for women to support children without ever marrying, and for fathers to ignore their responsibilities to their children. The rise of welfare and other social programs, many of which prioritized the needs of single mother households, thus disincentivising marriage. The war on drugs, which gave long sentences to otherwise nonviolent offenders, and contributed to the high incarceration rate of inner-city males, taking fathers away from families. Mostly good, or at least well-intended, changes, but changes which nonetheless undermined the family structure. Children need strong and stable families.

2. The decline of blue collar jobs - through most of the 20th century, a troubled young male could drop out of school and enter the working world and make enough to support himself and a family, often also gaining a sense of purpose, accomplishment, and belonging. Those types of jobs are largely gone now, so young people who may not be a good fit for our educational model must stay in school; there is no realistic alternative.

3. Changes in the treatment of the mentally ill - at one time, people could be easily committed to a mental hospital. Treatments like electroshock therapy and frontal lobotomies offered permanent solutions for out of control patients. Parents were encouraged to institutionalize children who had physical or mental disabilities. The rising awareness of the rights of the mentally ill brought troubled people back into the communities. When funding was cut off for mental hospitals, it became very difficult to hospitalize those who truly needed to be away from society, whether temporarily or permanently. Outpatient treatment also became less available.

4. The shrinking size of the world - it wasn't that long ago that a large percentage of people spent their entire lives in a single community. Telegraphs, then telephones, then faxes, then emails, then FaceTime decreased the perceived distance between people, as did trains, cars, and planes. There is an artificial sense of increasing problems in the world, because we hear about events we never would have even a generation ago. The internet not only brings news instantly from even the most remote parts of the world, it also creates a permanent record of our lives. It used to be a family with a troubled young person could send him off to live with a relative, providing an opportunity for a new start. Now, a person can't leave their past behind in the same way. At the same time, it's easier for people to move long distances, further eroding the sense of family and community. And of course there's the attraction of the echo chamber... Online it's easy to find like-minded people, as well as people who are damaged in similar ways to us. Thus, less incentive to interact with those whose opinions differ, and less incentive to conform to societal norms, and an increasing tendency for people of all sorts to move toward extremes.

5. Decreasing physical activity - hard to believe (sarcasm), but families did not always have three or four cars. People walked to school and to stores. Housework was a lot more physical before dishwashers and washing machines. We warm our homes with a click on an app, no need to shovel coal or chop wood, no need to even walk across the room. Socializing required people to get off their butts and go to wherever other people were; now, one can socialize all day and night without even getting out of bed. Physical activity is important. It's more effective than current medications for treating depression.

6. Population changes - the ever increasing size of classes and schools make personal and meaningful interaction between teachers and students much more difficult. Personal interactions between students are certainly very different. I grew up with everyone I graduated with, now schools are so large many classmates are complete strangers. Over twelve years, a child who has difficulty socializing can get to know and make friends with classmates if they are together every year. How does a child like that make friends when there are a thousand kids in his class? So many strangers, and so much easier to marginalize a misfit when you haven't known them since kindergarten.

These are the major sociological changes that I've come up with. I'm sure there are many more.

Many/most of the changes we've gone through are positives; (I certainly would not want to live in 1950s America), but collectively, I think there have been unanticipated and unintended negatives. But progress marches on. It's not possible to turn back the clock. The world is a very different place than it used to be.

How do we fix the bad without taking away the good? And, perhaps the more important question, how do we ensure our solutions don't give rise to other problems that we can't even conceive of now?

MOO

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Good insight. Lot of things changed after World War II. People are more isolated and alienated nowadays. Higher populations tend to put more stress on humans.
 
Cruz was adopted, along with his younger brother Zachary, by Lynda and Roger Cruz after the couple moved from Long Island, N.Y., to Broward County.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/1...ths-leading-up-to-massacre-attorney-says.html

Lewis told the Sun Sentinel that Cruz and his brother were living with a family in Palm Beach County, but Cruz was not happy and asked a friend from the Parkland high school if he could move in.

Lewis said Cruz was allowed to move in after Thanksgiving and was encouraged to take adult education classes. Cruz also got a job at a dollar store.

.....

He added that Lynda Cruz and her late husband, Roger Cruz, who died in 2004, adopted Nikolas and his half-brother, Zachary, at a young age.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-nikolas-cruz-20180215-htmlstory.html

.....

That afternoon, Cruz hailed an Uber, using the online car-service app. In the car on the way to Douglas, he was texting with the friend whose family had taken him in. That friend was a junior at Douglas. He was in class as Cruz neared the school. But Cruz's texts to him gave no reason for alarm.

"Hey yo, hey whatcha doin?" was the last text Cruz sent, Lewis recounted.

That was 2:18 p.m.

At 2:19 p.m., the gunman arrived, according to a police timeline released Thursday.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-82-minutes-florida-shooting-20180215-story.html

....


Idk just seems odd that she got Nik the day he was born and then got his younger half brother.


I do find it a little odd that family in ny only met them once for funeral. I have a feeling that mom did not tell family the truth about how bad Nik had become.

I wonder who are Nikolas Cruz's biological parents. I know his brother, Zachary, is a half brother. Both had same mother, but different fathers.
 
I may be misunderstanding your reply, but are you meaning to say that all with a diagnosis of autism can become highly educated like your niece? What “misconceptions” are you referring to, if you don’t mind answering.

We have a cousin’s child who was diagnosed with autism @ age 4 and his level of control seems to have never curbed his violence toward others. You cannot look him in the eye nor speak to him without upsetting him. He grew into adulthood as a large man, and family could no longer handle him when he became angry and lashed out, at himself or others. I do not know what educational level he may have achieved, he could not attend “regular classroom settings”, but he now, at age 30s, lives in residential care with 24-hour supervision.

People seem to be assuming that all Autistic kids are violent and slow educationally. It’s a shame. Like someone else stated. You meet one autistic person, you met one Autistic person. You can’t lump all Autistic people into one narrow description.
 

I read Elliot Rodger's manifesto. There is a theme of extreme envy and resentment.

I read that Nikolas Cruz was very obsessed about his girlfriend. He got expelled because he got in a fight the ex-girlfriend's boyfriend.

Alleged school shooter was abusive to ex-girlfriend: classmate
https://nypost.com/2018/02/15/alleged-school-shooter-was-abusive-to-ex-girlfriend-classmate/

Alleged school shooter Nikolas Cruz threatened to kill his ex girlfriend — and was expelled after fighting with her new boyfriend, classmates revealed Thursday.

“The reason he got expelled was because he was fighting with his ex-girlfriend’s new boyfriend,” Connor Dietrich, 17, a junior at Florida’s Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, told The Post.

“He stalked her and threatened her. He was like, ‘I’m going to kill you,’ and he would say awful things to her and harass her to the point I would walk her to the bus just to make sure she was OK. We all made sure she was never alone.”


Cruz is very jealous and likely is pathologically envious. He very well likely engaged in bullying. Pathological envy is a common characteristic of rampage killers and terrorists.
 
f a person causes self harm, makes threats to others, bleeds himself on Snapchat, openly bangs his head on cement walls, harms animals, threatens to shoot people openly on social media, calls his own mother & siblings horrendous names......this individual must be put into the hands of authorities to investigate & take further action upon. There is a point where ones civil liberties must be removed for the sake of society. Fact. And it needs to be spoken about, plan formulated, action taken. No more Lanza or Cruz’s for us to be living amongst open society to be afraid of. Nope. We’re done....quite honestly, we’ve been victimized and held hostage by the lack of resolution whereby our well-being is being jeopardized daily. We are all victims.
We need a process of identification, reporting, findings, and action taken. It’s simple solution seeking.
We must find a protocol....we must find a solution. We must protect our rights of living in our society. We must identify dangers and action taken appropriately by the authorities mandated to do such. We have a right to feel reasonably safe.

I think that we in the Anglosphere have profound problems with the idea of the person who reports another person to the authorities and are deeply uneasy about the sort of person who does that. In the UK the usual terms for such a person are "snitch" and "grass" - both highly perjorative. We associate it with totalitarianism and the police state, or with criminals betraying one another to the police. It's deeply dishonourable.

It's also a problem which works against the drive to embed a culture of whistleblowing in our corporate and government spheres. The experience here in the UK is that even when a company has a formally adopted whistleblowing policy which on paper guarantees an honest reporter will not be penalised if they get it wrong, and a route to report wrongdoing, in reality whistleblowers are penalised because of a very deeply engrained culture which is hostile to the "snitch" even when their claims are well founded.
 
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