Gun Control Debate #2

[KaaBoom]

How many armed security guards at each school? Who pays?

Already teachers buy supplies for their classrooms. I used to spend $2000 a year out of pocket as I taught in a poverty school.

There are no after school programs. No after school tutoring, Many places do not have recreation programs for kids. No quality daycare.

Art and music are cut,

But there will be money for security guards.

Insanity.

I'm all for it, as long as it's 100% paid for by a tax on firearms and ammunition. The armed guards won't do anything to solve the problem, but the massive tax sure will. :thumb:

 

[ohreally]

I am on the fence about arming staff at schools. I have grown up with guns. I target practice, own guns, and I am pro second amendment. That being said I would not be one volunteering to carry at school. IMO it is quite different to protect from an intruder coming into my home than a school shooter situation.
I do feel that in the latest school shooting that if the coach and the athletic director had a gun they could of saved of saved lives. The one (was a school security officer and coach)was unlocking a gate made it to where the shooter was and was getting students into a classroom. He had time to confront the shooter if he had a gun, but was killed instead. The other one was a military reservist and also ran to help the students. He had time to get to where the shooter was and was protecting students and was killed. Maybe if he had a gun it would of saved lives including his own.
The discussion is usually about arming teachers. I don't think the laws are looking to specifically arm teachers. I think they are talking about training staff includi g administrators and unarmed security. Many staff are former military and even law enforcement.
I think that if they are going to allow staff to carry a concealed weapon they need to be highly trained. With years of experience with a gun not just someone that has taken a concealled weapons course.
IMO the last shooting might of ended quicker if staff was allowed to be armed, then there is the flip side of unqualified staff having a gun. Scary either way.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Copying this from prior thread.

Transcript and video: Stoneman students' questions to lawmakers and the NRA at the CNN town hall

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...nn-town-hall-full-video-transcript/index.html

“We're here tonight to facilitate your desire to speak directly to your leaders, students, and family members, and faculty will get to ask questions to Florida's two US senators, Republican Marco Rubio and Democrat Bill Nelson, as well as their Congressman, Democrat Ted Deutch.

“And later tonight these students and their families will get to ask questions of the road County Sheriff, Scott Israel, and a national spokesperson for the NRA.”

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

From town hall link.

Rep. Ted Deutch:

A lot of people have told this community, people from all around the world, that it's too soon -- it's too soon to get together to have this kind of forum; it's too soon to talk about preventing another tragedy like the one that struck our community from happening anywhere again; it's too soon to talk about getting weapons of war out of our communities.

It is —

(APPLAUSE)

DEUTCH: — it is not — it is not too soon; it is too late for the 17 lives that are lost.

(APPLAUSE)

DEUTCH: It is too late for the grieving families, too late for the injured, too late for the 3,300 survivors of what happened.

Senator Rubio and Senator Nelson, we represent these fine people; we will not be judged by what we say here tonight, by the quality of our answers or by any back-and-forth in words.

DEUTCH: And Senator Nelson, we represent these fine people. We will not be judged by what we say here tonight by the quality of our answers or by any back and forth in words. The folks in our community don't want words, they don't want thoughts and prayers, they don't want discussions, they want action and we owe it to them.

(APPLAUSE)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/cnn-town-hall-full-video-transcript/index.html

 

[Ambitioned]

Bringing this over from the other thread:

Sorry but your last sentence is so wrong on so many levels. First, you are clearly stereotyping. Second, statistically you have very little worry of a middle age American woman with children from a middle class background committing active shooting events. It’s obvious she would have a gun in her possession to defend herself from violence, stalkers, rapists, child predators, batterers, burglars, etc.

I understand the bigger point you’re trying to make but I take offense. Would it be more fitting to you if a big, burly guy in his 4x4 pickup truck drinking a Budweiser had an AK47 in the back of his cab? See what I mean.......?

RBBM ~ That was beautiful and so succinctly put.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

More from town hall:

SEN. BILL NELSON:

We're all grieving. Your hope gives me hope. Your determination gives me more determination, and what we're facing is what's going to be done. Now there ought to be some common sense solutions like getting the assault rifles off the streets.

(APPLAUSE)

Another --

(APPLAUSE)

Another common sense solution -- having criminal backgrounds on every acquiring of a gun.

(APPLAUSE)

So, you have been so strong. Keep it up and keep hope alive.

(APPLAUSE)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/cnn-town-hall-full-video-transcript/index.html

 

[bobcat]

How many armed security guards at each school? Who pays?

Already teachers buy supplies for their classrooms. I used to spend $2000 a year out of pocket as I taught in a poverty school.

There are no after school programs. No after school tutoring, Many places do not have recreation programs for kids. No quality daycare.

Art and music are cut,

But there will be money for security guards.

Insanity.

Who pays? How about the federal government, by using the money they plan to use for foreign aid, which was 2.5 Billion in 2017 and 1.3 Billion in 2018.

We can’t afford to help other countries if we can’t even afford to protect our school children.

https://www.foreignassistance.gov/categories/Economic-Development#Funding

 

[watergirl62]

I'm all for it, as long as it's 100% paid for by a tax on firearms and ammunition. The armed guards won't do anything to solve the problem, but the massive tax sure will. :thumb:

Love this idea.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

More from town hall transcript.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO:

(snip)

I did not grow up in a school or in an era in which children were shot in classrooms, and even as we watch this pain and the nation suffers with you our -- we can never know the feeling. I can tell you this. There is a message that's come through loud and clear, and that is that beyond simply the pain -- mixed with that pain is a demand for action and...

(APPLAUSE)

-- while in that realm, I want to be honest with you. I think all of us would like to see action, but I want to tell you what we're going to struggle with. We are a nation of people that no longer speak to each other. We are a nation of people who have stopped being friends with people because who they voted for in the last election.

We are a nation of people who have isolated ourselves to only watch channels that tell us that we're right. We're a nation of people that have isolated ourselves politically and to a point where discussions like this have become very difficult. I'm here tonight, and I'm here tonight to answer any question anyone has, explain anything you want to know about what I stand for, what I've done and what I plan to do. And to the students that are here tonight, the ones on the stage, the ones in the audience, I want you to know that I'm actually extremely excited about your engagement, and ill tell you why. I'll tell you why, because I think you have a chance to do a lot more then change gun laws.

You should push for that. You have a chance to do a lot more than that. You have a chance to change the way we talk about politics in this country, and the reason why this event here is so important tonight -- the reason why this event is so important -- none of us wish we were here.

Eight days ago none of you thought you'd be here, but we are here and it's important that we are because tonight people who have different points of view are going to talk about an issue that I think we all believe and that is that this should never of happened and it can never again.

(APPLAUSE)

And if we want to truly ensure that it doesn't -- if we want to ensure that it doesn't then we are going to have to find the way of the nation -- as a nation to work with people that may not agree with us on certain things, without accusing one another of being evil people and my side is as guilty is that of any.

And, here's what I hope for the students, do not make the mistakes that my generation is making. It may not be - - I hope it's not too late for my generation, but it most certainly is not for yours.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/cnn-town-hall-full-video-transcript/index.html

 

[Blef]

Bringing this over from the other thread:



RBBM ~ That was beautiful and so succinctly put.

However the middle class American woman's disaffected teenager would be able to get hold of that gun, as has happened in so many cases, and then you get a tragedy like the others. I really wonder how many people who are victims of rape, home invasion etc actually have successfully thwarted that attack because they have a gun?

I couldn't include the quote in that post which I was replying to.

 

[Tricia]

Thank you for your well thought out post. I understand what you are saying.

I would think that Fox New, bloggers, and the NRA could hopefully get the students who disagree with what others are saying some airtime to voice their opinions.

If you come across any of those students who do stand up and voice their opposing opinions and you can link to a mainstream media source please do so. If the student is not on a mainstream media source please send me the link in a PM. If I can I will post it.

Thank you very much.

Tricia

I do not mean any disrespect to the students that are speaking out about gun control. No way do I believe they are crises acters. This is my state it happened and these students are genuine.
What I have a problem with is the media not giving all students that were at the school an equal opportunity to speak. Regarding the CNN discussion a student from the school states that he was not allowed to talk about security guards on campus. I believe him. I don't believe that those in attendance had scripted answers but I do believe that CNN determined what would be discussed.
Again, I have great respect for all the students speaking out it takes a lot of courage on thier part. I wish we had the statistics on how all 4000 students feel about gun control. We will never know since 100 cannot speak for 4000, and if those with opposing view points are not heard.
I feel for these students when they go back to class. I worry that instead of coming together as a school that there will be big problems on campus if not all are allowed to speak about how they feel.
Tricia, if you find my post any way offensive please delete because I am not in any way meaning to disrespect the students that were on CNN or that went to Tallahassee. I just feel the media needs to let every student speak equally.
I don't always explain myself well and this hits close to home working in a school in Florida.

 

[Tillicum]

However the middle class American woman's disaffected teenager would be able to get hold of that gun, as has happened in so many cases, and then you get a tragedy like the others. I really wonder how many people who are victims of rape, home invasion etc actually have successfully thwarted that attack because they have a gun?

I couldn't include the quote in that post which I was replying to.

I have.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

The question Rubio dodges about accepting financial backing from the NRA.

(I’m still digesting all of this. I watched last night, but I find it fascinating to read via transcript.)

Toooonnnnnnnnns more a link, as the town hall lasted close to two hours.

And I give Rubio props for participating in this discussion. He showed up and really took some hits to the chin. But he participated. I think he also learned a lot last night.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/cnn-town-hall-full-video-transcript/index.html

KASKY: Thank you. And guys, look, this isn't about red and blue. We can't boo people because they're democrats and boo people because they're republicans. Anyone who is willing to show change, no matter where they're from, anyone who is willing to start to make a difference is somebody we need on our side here. And this is about people who are for making a difference to save us and people who are against it and prefer money. So Senator Rubio, can you tell me right now that you will not accept a single donation from the NRA in the future?

(APPLAUSE)

KASKY: I wish I could have -- I wish I could have spoken -- I wished I could have asked the NRA lady a question. I would ask her, how she can look in the mirror, considering the fact she has children, but maybe she avoids those.

RUBIO: I'm sorry, what was that?

KASKY: I don't freaking know.

RUBIO: That's okay --

TAPPER: The question is about NRA money.

RUBIO: -- so number one, the positions I hold on these issues of the second amendment -- I've held since the day entered office in the city of West Miami as an elected official.
Number two -- no. The answer to the question is that people buy into my agenda. And I do support the Second Amendment. And I also support the right of you and everyone here to be able to go to school and be safe.
And I do support any law that would keep guns out of the hands of a deranged killer. And that's why I support the things that I have stood for and fought for --

KASKY: No more -- no more NRA money?

RUBIO: -- during my time here.

KASKY: More NRA money?

RUBIO: I -- there -- that is the wrong way to look -- first of all, the answer is, people buy into my agenda.

KASKY: You can say no.

RUBIO: Well -- I -- I -- the influence of any group --

KASKY: Guys, come on , be quiet. We're gonna be here all night.
RUBIO: The influence of these groups comes not from money. The influence comes from the millions of people that agree with the agenda. The millions...

KASKY: See, I see...

RUBIO: -- of Americans that support the NRA, and who...

TAPPER: All right.

RUBIO: -- support gun rights...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Sorry, Senator.
Guys.

KASKY: Guys, guys, if you..

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Cameron is having a conversation with Senator Rubio. Let's let them talk.

RUBIO: But I -- I -- listen. I respect -- you can ask that question, and I can tell you that I -- people buy into my agenda. I will answer any questions you guys have about any policy issue...

(CROSSTALK)

KASKY: Right -- right -- right now --
Guys, be quiet, be quiet. You know we're gonna be here all night.

RUBIO: And I -- and I just think that, ultimately, that is not our goal here. Our goal here is to move forward...

KASKY: Wait, so, hold on. So -- so right now...

RUBIO: ... and prevent -- and prevent this from ever happening again.

KASKY: ... in the name -- in the name of 17 people, you cannot ask the NRA to keep their money out of your campaign?

(APPLAUSE)

RUBIO: I think in the name of 17 people, I can pledge to you that I will support any law that will prevent a killer like this from getting a gun.

KASKY: No, but I'm talking about NRA money.

(OFF-MIKE)

RUBIO: No, no. Because I -- matter of fact, I bet we can get people in here to give you exactly as much money as the NRA would have...

(APPLAUSE)

RUBIO: But it's not -- I understand. And you're right.

KASKY: Can you stand up and put your name to that real quick? OK. Not a lot. But we'll get it.

(LAUGHTER)

KASKY: I'll do it...

(CROSSTALK)

RUBIO: You're -- you're right about that.

KASKY: ... you know, we've raised quite a bit of money so far.

RUBIO: Well, you're right about that. There is money on both sides of every issue in America. And where that leaves us in policymaking, is to look at the issues and make a decision based on what we think is right.

But ultimately, look. The First Amendment is as -- is as important as the Second. And therefore, you have every right to ask that question of me, and I...

(CROSSTALK)

KASKY: Are you gonna be accepting money from the NRA in the future?
RUBIO: I -- I've always supported...

(APPLAUSE)

RUBIO: -- I will always accept the help of anyone who agrees with my agenda. But my agenda is -- I'll give you a perfect example...

(CROSSTALK)

KASKY: Your agenda is protecting us, right?
RUBIO: Well, I'll give you an example, this very evening. I have told you that I support lifting the age from 18 to 21 of buying a rifle. My understanding, before I walked out here, is that that organization is not in favor of that. But I think that's the right thing to do.
I don't know what their position is, on teachers being armed. But I don't think they should be. Because that's what I think the right thing to do is.
When I offered my bill to restrict people on the terrorist watch list, or that have been on the list for the last 10 years from purchasing a weapon, they didn't take a stand. I don't think they -- they certainly didn't support my -- but I offered it.
I will do what I think is right. And if people want to support my agenda, they're welcome to do so. But they buy into my ideas. I don't buy into theirs.
KASKY: OK. So I knew that was gonna happen. NRA, please just keep the money out of Rubio, OK? If he wants to run again, you guys can...
(CROSSTALK)

 

[Chelly]

I think our generation will talk itself to the brink of insanity on gun control. Honestly, I believe that no one over the age of 40 will change his/her opinion on gun ownership

The children will lead. Only our youth, our future generations will change the quagmire we find ourselves in.

In a short period of time, our millennials changed the laws and philosophy of gay marriage. Our teens will soon be reaching voting age, they will be college bound and will become our future leaders, our representatives, our senators, and yes...a future president.

I have hope for the future. Until then, my generation will continue to spin its wheels and feud.

 

[Hatfield]

I am on the fence about arming staff at schools. I have grown up with guns. I target practice, own guns, and I am pro second amendment. That being said I would not be one volunteering to carry at school. IMO it is quite different to protect from an intruder coming into my home than a school shooter situation.
I do feel that in the latest school shooting that if the coach and the athletic director had a gun they could of saved of saved lives. The one (was a school security officer and coach)was unlocking a gate made it to where the shooter was and was getting students into a classroom. He had time to confront the shooter if he had a gun, but was killed instead. The other one was a military reservist and also ran to help the students. He had time to get to where the shooter was and was protecting students and was killed. Maybe if he had a gun it would of saved lives including his own.
The discussion is usually about arming teachers. I don't think the laws are looking to specifically arm teachers. I think they are talking about training staff includi g administrators and unarmed security. Many staff are former military and even law enforcement.
I think that if they are going to allow staff to carry a concealed weapon they need to be highly trained. With years of experience with a gun not just someone that has taken a concealled weapons course.
IMO the last shooting might of ended quicker if staff was allowed to be armed, then there is the flip side of unqualified staff having a gun. Scary either way.

JMO
I agree with everything you stated.

I think the requirement of having a certified shooting and safety training course would have to be required if school staff members volunteer to want to carry a concealed weapon to work.

They could make a requirement where each year a person would have to retake the training and pass the course before a certificate would be granted that allowed them permission. And its only for people that want to do that. Nobody would be forcing anyone to participate. Its an option if they want to pursue that.

One thing I am pretty sure of is a good well trained public person can do just as good a job if not better than some of the LE people I have seen in the news shoot unarmed people for no reason at all other than the LE person freaked out.

One option I have not seen mentioned yet is instead of allowing staff to have a weapon on their person what if there would be a rule that only the top qualified 1 2 or maybe up to 5 people in the school would be allowed this certification.

 

[KaaBoom]

Best gun control solution.

1. Require states to regulate firearms exactly as they do motor vehicles. Including firearms licenses for all gun owners. Registration and proof of liability insurance for each gun. Failure to comply would result in firearms and or motor vehicles being impounded.

2. Universal free health care services for everyone, with a requirement that everyone get a check up, at least once a year with a medical doctor and once a year with a psychiatrist. The check ups would include the doctors certifying that the patients are well and fit to operate a motor vehicle or use a firearm. Failing to get that certification would immediately result in suspension of driver's license and firearms license, and motor vehicles and firearms would be impounded until the person is certified well enough to operate a motor vehicle or use a gun.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

From town hall link.

Rep. Ted Deutch:

A lot of people have told this community, people from all around the world, that it's too soon -- it's too soon to get together to have this kind of forum; it's too soon to talk about preventing another tragedy like the one that struck our community from happening anywhere again; it's too soon to talk about getting weapons of war out of our communities.

It is —

(APPLAUSE)

DEUTCH: — it is not — it is not too soon; it is too late for the 17 lives that are lost.

(APPLAUSE)

DEUTCH: It is too late for the grieving families, too late for the injured, too late for the 3,300 survivors of what happened.

Senator Rubio and Senator Nelson, we represent these fine people; we will not be judged by what we say here tonight, by the quality of our answers or by any back-and-forth in words.

DEUTCH: And Senator Nelson, we represent these fine people. We will not be judged by what we say here tonight by the quality of our answers or by any back and forth in words. The folks in our community don't want words, they don't want thoughts and prayers, they don't want discussions, they want action and we owe it to them.

(APPLAUSE)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/cnn-town-hall-full-video-transcript/index.html

From your link -

LOESCH: True. True. But specifically where it relates to long guns, because it's 21 for handguns, 18 for long guns. But I also think of young women and you've had a previous town hall where you spoke with a young woman named Kim Corbin (ph) who was a college student who was brutally raped in her dorm. And she was under the age of 21 and one of the things that she speaks out about loudly now is how she wished she would have had the ability to be able to have some sort - - a shotgun, whatever it was to be able to defend herself.

I would like to add that the crowd jeers and boos at the mention of a rape victim wishing she had been able to defend herself with a gun. That was left out by CNN so I'll add it.

(BOOING)

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I think our generation will talk themselves to the brink of insanity on gun control. Honestly, I believe that no one over the age of 40 will change his/her opinion on gun ownership

The children will lead. Only our youth, our future generations will change the quagmire we find ourselves in.

In a short period of time, our millennials changed the laws and philosophy of gay marriage. Our teens will soon be reaching voting age, they will be college bound and will become our future leaders, our representatives, our senators, and yes...a future president.

I have hope for the future. Until then, my generation will continue to spin its wheels and feud.

I’d bump the age from 40 to 50, but I agree with everything else you said. A lot of 40-somethings’ own children are the age of these high-schoolers, and they don’t want their kids to be slaughtered anymore, either. Moo

 

[Hatfield]

Best gun control solution.

1. Require states to regulate firearms exactly as they do motor vehicles. Including firearms licenses for all gun owners. Registration and proof of liability insurance for each gun. Failure to comply would result in firearms and or motor vehicles being impounded.

2. Universal free health care services for everyone, with a requirement that everyone get a check up, at least once a year with a medical doctor and once a year with a psychiatrist. The check ups would include the doctors certifying that the patients are well and fit to operate a motor vehicle or use a firearm. Failing to get that certification would immediately result in suspension of driver's license and firearms license, and motor vehicles and firearms would be impounded until the person is certified well enough to operate a motor vehicle or use a gun.

JMO
I like a lot in there.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/cnn-town-hall-full-video-transcript/index.html

LOESCH: I was a very politically active teenager and I'm on this stage as a result of that. Think of how far you all could go, as a result of voicing your beliefs.
Now, I want to answer your question. And, I want to be allowed the opportunity, which is why I am here. To talk and have this discussion with you all and answer these questions. This is why I came down here.
I don't believe that this insane monster should have ever been able to obtain a firearm, ever. I do not think that he should have gotten his hands on any kind of weapon. That's number one.
This individual was nuts and I, nor the millions of people that I represent as a part of this organization, that I'm here speaking for, none of us support people who are crazy, who are a danger to themselves, who are a danger to others, getting their hands on a firearm.
And, we have been, for over 20 years, and I have been screaming about this, which is why I'm here, because I have kids and I'm not just fighting for my kids, I'm fighting for you, I'm fighting for you, I'm fighting for all of you.
Because I don't want anyone to ever be in this position again. I want everyone to think about this for one second, this goes right into your question. Do you know that it is not federally required for states to actually report people who are prohibited possessors, crazy people, people who are murderers?
No, we've been actually talking about that for a long time. Let me answer the question. Let me answer the question. You can shout me down when I'm finished, but let me answer Emma's question.
It is not federal law for states to report convictions to the NICS system. It's not federally mandated. That's the big question and I wish that this network had also covered this more, as other media networks would have covered it.
That's a huge - - wait a second, wait a second . . .
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You guys, if I can't hear her statement, I can't come up with a rebuttal. Please.


It's clear here, that the audience was yelling and shouting Dana down. That's not noted in the transcript. There were people in the audience clearly calling her a murderer. Bias reporting in my opinion.