FL - 17 killed in Stoneman Douglas H.S. shooting, Parkland, 14 Feb 2018 #3 *Arrest*

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See the comment in Sun/Sentinel article posted by Peculiar on previous page where it mentions the agreement
between Broward Co. schools and Broward Co. LE to "not" arrest students in order to keep safety statistics looking
favorable for school ratings. Another 'dropped the ball' example. NC obviously could have been arrested and probably
charged with a felony for assault/fighting.
This is what I guessed happened, over and over. He was given a slap on the hands and allowed to go on.
With his serious ongoing emotional problems, I'm not sure an arrest would have changed anything, really.
NC was like a wild animal allowed to roam free with little oversight.
I still pity him and am sad at the horrible life he had to have had, trapped in his emotional prison.
 
WS already has its own Gun Control thread & welcome to WS, somerset
 
enelram said:
See the comment in Sun/Sentinel article posted by Peculiar on previous page where it mentions the agreement
between Broward Co. schools and Broward Co. LE to "not" arrest students in order to keep safety statistics looking
favorable for school ratings. Another 'dropped the ball' example. NC obviously could have been arrested and probably
charged with a felony for assault/fighting.
This is what I guessed happened, over and over. He was given a slap on the hands and allowed to go on.
With his serious ongoing emotional problems, I'm not sure an arrest would have changed anything, really.
NC was like a wild animal allowed to roam free with little oversight.
I still pity him and am sad at the horrible life he had to have had, trapped in his emotional prison.
Click to expand...

If he was arrested, charged and convicted for any of the things he reportedly did, then he wouldn't have been able to legally purchase assault weapons.
 
Yes, this is the general discussion thread, so I'm wondering if post #603 was posted in the wrong place?
 
Safeguard said:
I think, to a lot of people who don't own guns, weren't raised around them, and have little first hand knowledge about them, guns are big scary weapons of destruction, often used to kill people.

To those more comfortable and familiar with guns, they are tools. Used to protect yourself, your family, livestock, personal property, as well as hunting and recreation.Responsible gun owners would not think of using their guns to murder people, any more than those of us who own butcher knives, or chainsaws would think of using those tools to kill people.

It seems to me that both sides of the equation, are so entrenched in their passionate opinions, that reasonable compromises are unable to be reached.

It's like both sides shout each other down, and the kids are caught in the crossfire.

My daughter is a seventh grade student. Right now, in the current social climate, I don't give a good GD about 2nd amendment rights. I want my child to survive her school day.

IMO there are several reasons why these 17 lives were lost, and the number one reason on my list would be complacency. "Not here, not in our school community" We have *programs* We don't arrest! We redirect!

Nikolas cruz shouted from the rooftops, that he was going to shoot up his school. He announced his intent, he published photo evidence of his capability on SM, he was reported, again, and again and again, and still... complacency reigned supreme.

Last year, there was several Bomb threats called into my child's school. ( A man was eventually arrested for calling hundreds of bomb threats into schools across MA.). on those days, I would receive an automated message that there was a threat, and that the school had been swept from top bottom and cleared. I would find it totally unacceptable, if school officials had received the information that MSD school had about NC and not alerted parents, and informed them of steps that were being taken, if any, to safeguard the students from this threat.

There were failures on every level, that allowed this tragic loss of life. Would it really be too much to to ask of the gun proponents to allow some restrictions to the availability of assault weapons? I would beg of you, as a mom to a wonderful, beautiful young woman, whom is dearly loved, to please consider that not everyone who enjoys our constitutional right to own weapons is responsible enough to do so.

While I appreciate our constitutional rights greatly, and I don't want them infringed apon in the slightest, I would say that NC was a mass murderer in the making and a plethora of people knew it. If he had not had access to they type of weapon he had, OR something had been done to prevent his freely moving about in society, this tragic loss of life could have been prevented.

IMO both of these measures are necessary NOW.

So... This is my plea, as a parent, not a democrats stricken with malignant altruism, don't make it easy to get an assault rifles. Have mercy.
Click to expand...

From above, well stated, Safeguard, moo:

"I think, to a lot of people who don't own guns, weren't raised around them, and have little first hand knowledge about them, guns are big scary weapons of destruction, often used to kill people.

To those more comfortable and familiar with guns, they are tools. Used to protect yourself, your family, livestock, personal property, as well as hunting and recreation.Responsible gun owners would not think of using their guns to murder people, any more than those of us who own butcher knives, or chainsaws would think of using those tools to kill people.

It seems to me that both sides of the equation, are so entrenched in their passionate opinions, that reasonable compromises are unable to be reached."
 
Whether you were raised around guns or not, in this case they were obviously weapons of destruction, used to kill innocent people. Purchased by someone who clearly shouldn't have been able to purchase them, yet it was perfectly legal under US laws.
 
jjenny said:
Interesting that this article claims that he was adopted as a newborn. So there wasn't a 2 year delay during which he missed a "crucial bonding' window. Also, birth mother passed a drug test, so presumably she wasn't a drug addict.
Click to expand...

What I found interesting in great article that she was there during delivery so I have to assume it was not like a blind abortion.

I would think they all knew who each other were no?

EuTuCroquet? said:
(story updated today, apologies if it's already been posted and I missed it.)

Broward Sheriff’s Office investigates allegations that multiple deputies stayed outside during the Parkland massacre
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ter-parkland-massacre/?utm_term=.25dba8e636b0
Click to expand...

Reagarding this whole angle I cant help but wonder if there was some misunderstandings occurring.

There were more than one dispatch where all on scene were told they were having major telecommunications problems. (25 year old system)

and

I can get one guy with a baby pistol not charging toward a machine gun .

As more details emerged and it turned into 4 cops hiding I am wondering if it was like him standing alone for 3 min and in the final 30 seconds when the other three showed up they were like talking to each other for plan

What would be really interesting to know , in the video, were they trying to use radio to advice they were going in and it was not transmitting or something.

When the COral cops came out and said they were bothered by the 4 sheriffs that did make it more concerning

I just dont know -- visualizing 4 cops hiding for 4 minutes is unique.
 
Safeguard said:
I think, to a lot of people who don't own guns, weren't raised around them, and have little first hand knowledge about them, guns are big scary weapons of destruction, often used to kill people.

To those more comfortable and familiar with guns, they are tools. Used to protect yourself, your family, livestock, personal property, as well as hunting and recreation.Responsible gun owners would not think of using their guns to murder people, any more than those of us who own butcher knives, or chainsaws would think of using those tools to kill people.

It seems to me that both sides of the equation, are so entrenched in their passionate opinions, that reasonable compromises are unable to be reached.

It's like both sides shout each other down, and the kids are caught in the crossfire.

My daughter is a seventh grade student. Right now, in the current social climate, I don't give a good GD about 2nd amendment rights. I want my child to survive her school day.

IMO there are several reasons why these 17 lives were lost, and the number one reason on my list would be complacency. "Not here, not in our school community" We have *programs* We don't arrest! We redirect!

Nikolas cruz shouted from the rooftops, that he was going to shoot up his school. He announced his intent, he published photo evidence of his capability on SM, he was reported, again, and again and again, and still... complacency reigned supreme.

Last year, there was several Bomb threats called into my child's school. ( A man was eventually arrested for calling hundreds of bomb threats into schools across MA.). on those days, I would receive an automated message that there was a threat, and that the school had been swept from top bottom and cleared. I would find it totally unacceptable, if school officials had received the information that MSD school had about NC and not alerted parents, and informed them of steps that were being taken, if any, to safeguard the students from this threat.

There were failures on every level, that allowed this tragic loss of life. Would it really be too much to to ask of the gun proponents to allow some restrictions to the availability of assault weapons? I would beg of you, as a mom to a wonderful, beautiful young woman, whom is dearly loved, to please consider that not everyone who enjoys our constitutional right to own weapons is responsible enough to do so.

While I appreciate our constitutional rights greatly, and I don't want them infringed apon in the slightest, I would say that NC was a mass murderer in the making and a plethora of people knew it. If he had not had access to they type of weapon he had, OR something had been done to prevent his freely moving about in society, this tragic loss of life could have been prevented.

IMO both of these measures are necessary NOW.

So... This is my plea, as a parent, not a democrats stricken with malignant altruism, don't make it easy to get an assault rifles. Have mercy.
Click to expand...

Awesome post !!
 
Regarding the deputies on the scene: Sheriff said Dep. Peterson, school resource officer, DID use his radio to contact
headquarters, then took position and waited 4 min. Was he directed to go in or stay in position?

IME, around here, even in a domestic violence incidence where the perp is holed up inside a house, LE never goes in alone and in many cases even if there's multiple LE on scene, LE on the scene waits for SWAT to show up then SWAT goes in as a group. But SWAT
has the heavy duty fire power, not a revolver like Peterson had. I'm confused at this blame of Peterson.
IMO, if he did go into the school, it would have been like walking into the firing squad- big, fast weapon against puny,
slow, less powerful weapon.
 
enelram said:
Something else to consider about NC: We don't know how long he had most likely been OFF his drugs for ADHD
or any of his other problems. We know he told one counselor he didn't like to take medications, so maybe he's
been off his meds for months or longer. Wonder if we will ever know what he had taken?
Click to expand...


ADHD was really overdiagnosed during this time period. Primary drug back then was Ritalin and it really is nothing like a lot of the other psyc meds.

Basically it is like coffee! It is a stimulant. No One understands why a stimulant calms those with ADHD. If it is the wrong diagnosis however, the person will actually speed.

But there is no side effect profile like a lot of the others as it relates to just stopping them suddenly.

With a lot of the other stuff sudden cessation can cause a whole bunch of other things , but RItalin is not like that.

Its kinda like comparing chemotherapy to Tylenol. Kinda! Chemo has to get to a certain level before anything might happen.

Tylenol goes in and does its thing. Ritalin is similar- most of the time if one stops Ritalin (if being taken as ordered), and the diagnosis is accurate basically the hyper stuff will return.

If we ever got a real chronology I think we will find the ADHD diagnosis early on. Autistic issues take longer to emerge and clearly see when young.

They could just be slow to learn how to talk etc.

As years pass it slowly becomes clearer because other developmental tasks are also emerging giving a much clearer picture that this is not ADHD but other more problematic issues.

In 99% of the time after events like these the media often (like here) reports a multitude of diagnosis in the press.

With someone with a long history of contact with mental health providers , what you are really seeing is changing diagnoses over time/

years.....

it is more like at first we thought XXXX and then several years later XXXXX and on and on

KInda like it is more meaningful to view autistic spectrum concerns as being the last and most accurate diansis like 10 years later.

An autistic 5 year old will be restless and fidgety. But the data is not there to make one consider autism because the delays are not as delayed at that age.

But with ageing more delays are noticeable and become more profound (just a crazy example a three year old that is having trouble mastering toilet skills is different than a 11 year having the same problem if that makes sense)-- kinda like building up on the poor child and caretaker.

There has been great strides in understanding autistic clusters recently.

And super real assessment to rule it in or out are expensive . There are not resources at the community health level to do the comprehensive testing for this cluster.

They need psychological and developmental testing that can only be done properly by specialists

[FONT=&quot]When a developmental delay is recognized in a child, further testing can help a doctor find out whether the problem is related to autism, another [/FONT]autism spectrum disorder[FONT=&quot], or a [/FONT]condition with similar symptoms[FONT=&quot], such as [/FONT]language delays[FONT=&quot] or [/FONT]avoidant personality disorder[FONT=&quot]. If your primary care provider does not have specific training or experience in developmental problems, he or she may refer your child to a specialist-such as a developmental pediatrician, a psychiatrist, a speech therapist, a [/FONT]psychologist[FONT=&quot], or a child psychiatrist-for the additional testing.

[/FONT]https://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/autism-exams-and-tests#1

Real life story of how hard to diagnosis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQutCjtAf1U
 
Here is an explanation of how students with IEP’s and behavior issues are handled in school. All school fall under this umbrella. It is Federal Law.

http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/discipl.suspend.crabtree.htm

Here is just a bit of info:

There are certain behaviors for which a school system can change a student's placement to an "interim alternative educational setting" for up to 45 school days. This is so if the student carries a dangerous weapon to school or a school function, knowingly possesses, uses, sells or attempts to sell illegal drugs at school or at a school function, or has inflicted serious bodily injury upon another while at school or at a school function. (§1415(k)(1)(G))

A school department can also try to convince a hearing officer in your state's special education due process system to order an interim alternative educational placement for up to 45 days by proving that maintaining the child in her current placement "is substantially likely to result in injury to the child or to others." (§ 1415(k)(3)(A))

In either case, any alternative educational placement for up to 45 days under these provisions must provide FAPE. Accordingly it must be designed to "enable the child to continue to participate in the general curriculum, although in another setting, and to progress toward meeting the goals set out in the child's IEP." (§ 1415(k)(1)(D)

The placement must also include services to address the behavior for which the student is being suspended in the first place. (A home tutoring program would not normally satisfy these requirements, though if the only alternative is a program for students with severe emotional / behavioral disabilities, sometimes a parent is faced with either accepting an inappropriate home-bound instruction program or placement in a volatile setting with an inappropriate peer group. If it is feasible to use the expedited hearing process, described below, it may be best to accept home tutoring while contesting the matter.)
 
x_files said:
I personally would be afraid of him. Another reason he shouldn't have been allowed back in class. His behavior was destructive, violent and disruptive. Not condusive to a learning environment. It's still a school not a prision. Other teens should n't be forced to live in fear to attend classes.
Click to expand...

I think this explains quite well the rights a special needs student has that is violent

http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/discipl.suspend.crabtree.htm
 
enelram said:
....which is why I believe he should have been in special ed. school w/ teachers trained to deal with his problems.
I think Broward Co. special ed. (Cross Creek) takes them up til age 22.
Had an old friend who taught Special Ed. and NC's behaviors were pretty normal for what she dealt with on a daily
basis. She had rules and regulations on how to deal with them when they had meltdowns.
Click to expand...

This explains how the law applies to violent special needs students.

And I totally agree. Teachers in classrooms with violent students experience this behavior probably daily.

http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/discipl.suspend.crabtree.htm
 
margarita25 said:
From above, well stated, Safeguard, moo:

"I think, to a lot of people who don't own guns, weren't raised around them, and have little first hand knowledge about them, guns are big scary weapons of destruction, often used to kill people.

To those more comfortable and familiar with guns, they are tools. Used to protect yourself, your family, livestock, personal property, as well as hunting and recreation.Responsible gun owners would not think of using their guns to murder people, any more than those of us who own butcher knives, or chainsaws would think of using those tools to kill people.

It seems to me that both sides of the equation, are so entrenched in their passionate opinions, that reasonable compromises are unable to be reached."
Click to expand...

I wonder why everything deserves compromise? Did owning slaves deserve compromise? The right to vote for women, blacks and Natives? It seems like there have been something like 27 Amendments to the Constitution. Is that right?
 
human said:
As far as I can tell, no one called LE about this. The actual victims.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by that. His adoptive mother called police on him numerous times. At least some calls were about him being abusive and violent toward her. So she was the "actual victim."
 
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