FL - 17 killed in Stoneman Douglas H.S. shooting, Parkland, 14 Feb 2018 #3 *Arrest*

[x_files]

Thank you, Popsicle!

Reading this transcript frustrates me so much! It sounds like family, classmates, friends all sent up warning flags to both local and federal authorities, yet no authorities successfully connected the dots to understand the true nature of the threat this kid posed. As I've read the news articles, my sense is that each set of authorities had their own fiefdoms and that information wasn't shared well enough to establish key patterns. That coupled with the strong separation between childhood records and adult records in Florida (MOO, based on living in FL since 1967) means there were red flags all over the place that were not compiled into an effective dossier by authorities. As a citizen, my question is what the heck do our authorities need us to tell them or do in order for them to connect the dots of so many red flags when reporting threats such as these!?

Moo!

There was plenty of evidence from his own social media accounts to arrest him for threats and have him evaluated 72 hold. They dropped the ball. I'd like to know why there was no follow up.

 

[x_files]

Tipster’s Warning to F.B.I. on Florida Shooting Suspect: ‘I Know He’s Going to Explode’ https://nyti.ms/2sS55Cl

She was right. This person tried to get him help.

 

[jjenny]

It takes highly skilled/trained officers/military to face off with an active shooter. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

And clearly most teachers aren't going to be able to face off.

 

[jjenny]

There was plenty of evidence from his own social media accounts to arrest him for threats and have him evaluated 72 hold. They dropped the ball. I'd like to know why there was no follow up.

Yea, at least he should have been Baker acted and held involuntarily. Seems like him threatening to kill other students should have been enough for that.

 

[x_files]

Great Question Jax, I think lots of people dropped the ball once he started telling people he wanted to get a gun:

His Mom was one- I don't know how but seems to me common sense should have told her this was a catastrophy
waiting to happen.
Local LE knew and dropped the ball.
DCF knew and dropped the ball.
School authorities knew and dropped the ball.
FBI knew and were warned and dropped the ball.
His mental health counselor probably knew and dropped the ball.
His relatives in NY knew and tried to pursue it but others dropped the ball.
His fosters probably knew, at least the first one did, and bumped him out on the street.
All these people failed him and the injured and killed people at the high school.
I don't know what the answer is but I know the system failed big time.

How did so many people fail to see the red flags? or did and dropped the ball? refused to follow through LE/FBI?

 

[enelram]

I personally would be afraid of him. Another reason he shouldn't have been allowed back in class. His behavior was destructive, violent and disruptive. Not condusive to a learning environment. It's still a school not a prision. Other teens should n't be forced to live in fear to attend classes.

....which is why I believe he should have been in special ed. school w/ teachers trained to deal with his problems.
I think Broward Co. special ed. (Cross Creek) takes them up til age 22.
Had an old friend who taught Special Ed. and NC's behaviors were pretty normal for what she dealt with on a daily
basis. She had rules and regulations on how to deal with them when they had meltdowns.

 

[x_files]

Is there a written report somewhere to LE that he held a gun to someone’s head? I know that people talked about it, but is there an actual complaint from a victim to LE?

He is 5’7” which is exremely small for a male. Were any of his agressions taken seriously? People do fight and nothing happens. No charges are ever filed.

Which charges would result in a felony?

You don't have to be tall or big to be violent and frightening.

 

[x_files]

There is a bunch of allegations in call to FBI, that NC held a rifle to his mother, that he was throwing chairs at teachers and other students. I have seen several students making allegations that NC was threatening them- a friend of ex-girlfriend, a new boyfriend of ex-girlfriend. Police were called to his home numerous times. Seems there could have been charges on at least some of these things.

I had a neighbor who had two sons who were out-of-control took guns and threatened the neighbors. Cops refused to charge them. This kept happening. The cops were over there 5 times a week.
Cops refused to arrest them or do anything. So, yes, it's possible I've witnsessed it. I don't understand.

 

[x_files]

Was there a published obituary in the local paper? What was date?
I wonder if people just did NOT know she'd died. You have to pay to have them published and maybe the 2 ex-neighbors didn't want to bother or maybe they didn't want outsiders to know and interfere, if they had a plan to
handle the boys and the estate $$$.

That makes sense. Possibly family did not know or feared being around NC. Do you blame them? I wouldn't put my family in harm's way. When someone threatens you just once, BELIEVE THEM! (sane people do not make idle threats or joke about shooting others)
I believe his mother did discuss the problems with extended family and it scared them off.

 

[enelram]

I had a neighbor who had two sons who were out-of-control took guns and threatened the neighbors. Cops refused to charge them. This kept happening. The cops were over there 5 times a week.
Cops refused to arrest them or do anything. So, yes, it's possible I've witnsessed it. I don't understand.

I think LE is extra careful with young people since they don't want to give them a criminal record, if at all possible.
Plus I wonder if, LE realized (from his mom) that he was getting counseling and had diagnosed behavioral problems
and had a counselor, they passed off the hot potato to DCF once, but did not want to charge him for those reasons.
Or maybe they just don't want the extra paperwork of charging, appearing in court, etc. Donuts are waiting.

Every few years we have a case here where it's proven that somebody, either DCF or LE, dropped the ball and
someone (usually a baby or child or domestic violence) dies and then there's a bit stink raised for a while and then it goes away.

 

[x_files]

....which is why I believe he should have been in special ed. school w/ teachers trained to deal with his problems.
I think Broward Co. special ed. (Cross Creek) takes them up til age 22.
Had an old friend who taught Special Ed. and NC's behaviors were pretty normal for what she dealt with on a daily
basis. She had rules and regulations on how to deal with them when they had meltdowns.

Did he have a learning disability or was he anti-social disorder/psychopathy? Do we know yet? If so can they deal with disorders alongside others with learning disabilities?
That would be scary for the others just trying to learn.

 

[x_files]

I think LE is extra careful with young people since they don't want to give them a criminal record, if at all possible.
Plus I wonder if, LE realized (from his mom) that he was getting counseling and had diagnosed behavioral problems
and had a counselor, they passed off the hot potato to DCF once, but did not want to charge him for those reasons.
Or maybe they just don't want the extra paperwork of charging, appearing in court, etc. Donuts are waiting.

Every few years we have a case here where it's proven that somebody, either DCF or LE, dropped the ball and
someone (usually a baby or child or domestic violence) dies and then there's a bit stink raised for a while and then it goes away.

It's the opposite of what they did when I was a teen. A kid pulled the fire alarm and was removed to juvie. There were much harsher penalties. Not sure that was the answer either.
I think if two teens are threatening to shoot the neighbors at age 10-15, they need to be arrested. It's just not normal behavior.

 

[popsicle]

I think LE is extra careful with young people since they don't want to give them a criminal record, if at all possible.
Plus I wonder if, LE realized (from his mom) that he was getting counseling and had diagnosed behavioral problems
and had a counselor, they passed off the hot potato to DCF once, but did not want to charge him for those reasons.
Or maybe they just don't want the extra paperwork of charging, appearing in court, etc. Donuts are waiting.

Every few years we have a case here where it's proven that somebody, either DCF or LE, dropped the ball and
someone (usually a baby or child or domestic violence) dies and then there's a bit stink raised for a while and then it goes away.

BBM
Seriously? I wish we would stop stereotyping LE this way.

 

[enelram]

Did he have a learning disability or was he anti-social disorder/psychopathy? Do we know yet? If so can they deal with disorders alongside others with learning disabilities?
That would be scary for the others just trying to learn.

So far I've seen that his mom said he was ADHD and maybe autistic. Others said he was like a 12 yrs. old, mentally
and emotionally. My friend dealt w/ children w/emotional/behavioral problems. Not the same as simple learning
disabilities. I suspect NC had a bucket full of problems.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

The psychological impact of having to take a life. Interesting read regarding combat as we discuss arming teachers.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heart/themes/prep.html

“I think it is a very important thing to understand that when your friends are wounded or dead, it's a real loss. It's a loss of your friend that you trusted and you loved in a very intense way.

“When you personally take another life and you go up to that lifeless body with a hole in it and you look down on it, and you say, "I did that," I think it is a loss of yourself at the same time. And I think that [once] they understand that, they can't go back again. They can't say that it didn't happen, or [that] maybe somebody else did it.

“The enormous fire power that we are currently expending in our modern wars, from Vietnam onward, blurs the line considerably. Because if there's a massed fire and 2,000 rounds are going out at one time, who knows who shot who? But all we know is there's a lot of people in front of us that are dead. That absolves you of the responsibility of looking at that lifeless body and [seeing that] some mother, some son, some father, some uncle, is now dead.

“And that's different than not knowing. Knowing, I think, is the Rubicon. And they talk about it with sadness. It's not something that they're prideful of, it's a profound sadness.”

:bump:

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Aren't juvie records generally sealed? Juvie courts handle cases much differently than criminal courts.

I don't know. Where I live, threats like these are taken very seriously. They're not blown off.

But there's only so much they can do. One, they're juveniles (although this shooter was 19, he'd had social problems for years, iirc), not adults. Two, once he's an adult, any "involuntary" help he was getting he is now in control of and can reject. So the cycle starts all over as he transitions into adulthood.

rsbm

I think LE is extra careful with young people since they don't want to give them a criminal record, if at all possible.
Plus I wonder if, LE realized (from his mom) that he was getting counseling and had diagnosed behavioral problems
and had a counselor, they passed off the hot potato to DCF once, but did not want to charge him for those reasons.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Wasn't he in a special school for awhile, and that school transitioned him back into public school? (rbbm)

Here's one link, but it's not the one I'm looking for.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...ikolas-cruz/WnXemxzEZkSjV6olgQpkLJ/story.html

Middle school and high school teachers referred Cruz to individual and family counseling, the records show. They held parent conferences and called social workers. They sent him to in-school suspension, and they sent him off campus. For a time, they sent him to a school for emotionally disturbed youth. (snip)

He was well-known to school and mental health authorities, and was entrenched in the process for getting students help rather than referring them to law enforcement. (snip)

Instead of slipping through the cracks, it appears Cruz was the target of aggressive work to help put him on the right track. But it also appears he might have hit the limit of what could be done.​

....which is why I believe he should have been in special ed. school w/ teachers trained to deal with his problems.
I think Broward Co. special ed. (Cross Creek) takes them up til age 22.
Had an old friend who taught Special Ed. and NC's behaviors were pretty normal for what she dealt with on a daily
basis. She had rules and regulations on how to deal with them when they had meltdowns.

ETA: Found it! More info on his time in alternative school, his diagnoses, etc.

http://www.businessinsider.com/niko...ests-before-florida-shooting-2018-2?r=UK&IR=T

Agency investigators questioned Cruz at his home, ultimately identifying him as a "vulnerable adult due to mental illness," including depression, autism, and attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, which he was medicated for.

Broward Circuit Judge Charles Greene on Monday ordered that the agency release parts of Cruz's mental-health assessment.

But the school records also showed that Cruz was anxious to improve inside and outside the classroom. He disliked attending the alternative school and wanted to be "mainstreamed to his home high school," which likely referred to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

 

[jjenny]

I think LE is extra careful with young people since they don't want to give them a criminal record, if at all possible.
Plus I wonder if, LE realized (from his mom) that he was getting counseling and had diagnosed behavioral problems
and had a counselor, they passed off the hot potato to DCF once, but did not want to charge him for those reasons.
Or maybe they just don't want the extra paperwork of charging, appearing in court, etc. Donuts are waiting.

Every few years we have a case here where it's proven that somebody, either DCF or LE, dropped the ball and
someone (usually a baby or child or domestic violence) dies and then there's a bit stink raised for a while and then it goes away.

Is that supposed to be LE's job, worry about young people criminal record even if these people deserve it?
With that many calls to police, and FBI, NC was still able to buy assault weapons because nothing ended up on his record. And look what happened because of this.

 

[jjenny]

You don't have to be tall or big to be violent and frightening.

Well, exactly. Especially if you are armed with assault weapons.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Clarification of Baker Act Criteria — Florida law