Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[*Lash*]

Why have t the Zahau family sued the Medical Examiners office, city of San Diego, police etc? This seems weird to me.

Is there a legal reason? So many of you know so much, even a few are insiders? Surely someone can tell me. It’s a very odd omission. Especially when even I have to concede the points made here about their handling of the case.

Surely RZ should have justice from them.

Zahau family sues Sheriff Gore seeking evidence in Coronado death

May 08, 2013

www.cbs8.com/story/22189885/family-of-rebecca-zahau-to-sue-sheriff-bill-gore-seeking-evidence-in-her-death

Family Sues to Reopen Coronado Mansion Death Investigation

May 8, 2013

www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Coronado-Mansion-Death-Zahau-Family-to-Speak--206584951.html

Zahau Family Expected To File Suit Against San Diego Sheriff’s Dept.

May 8, 2013

www.kpbs.org/news/2013/may/08/zahau-family-expect-file-suit-against-san-diego-sh/

View Case Detail:

courtindex.sdcourt.ca.gov/CISPublic/casedetail?casenum=201300047752&casesite=SD&applcode=C

 

[K_Z]

Why have t the Zahau family sued the Medical Examiners office, city of San Diego, police etc? This seems weird to me.

Is there a legal reason? So many of you know so much, even a few are insiders? Surely someone can tell me. It’s a very odd omission. Especially when even I have to concede the points made here about their handling of the case.

Surely RZ should have justice from them.

I don't know for sure, but from what has been described by Mary and Mr. Greer, they are barely staying afloat financially with this lawsuit. Maybe they'd like to sue them, but just can't bring the $$ resources against such a goliath-- who would have an unlimited, government/ public funded budget for defense.

Too bad some hugely wealthy celebrity or politician hasn't stepped up to help the Z family. That sure would be nice, and charitable.

Adam has Jonah's considerable wealth to fall back on.

MZLs husband just sold his pickup truck to help fund legal bills, per Mr. Greer.

 

[K_Z]

iirc, RZ's hyoid bone was broken.

Correct.

There is a hemorrhagic fracture of the left arm of the hyoid bone with downward displacement of the distal end. The fracture is 3/8 inches from the tip. There is a small amount of hemorrhage associated with it.

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/zahau, rebecca_report.pdf

It seems the displacement of a hanging induced fracture (sudden upward jerk of the head and neck) would be superior, not inferior (up, versus down). Did Cyril Wecht discuss this?

Fractures in the hyoids of young adults and kids/ teens are not always present with strangulation and hanging, because the hyoid attachments don't ossify (become bony) till middle age. The hyoid is also one of the only bones in the body not articulated (connected) to other bones. It's commonly described as "free floating", with muscular and fibrous connections to other structures. (But it's well secured, just not connected by tendons to other bones.)

The hyoid is ossified from six centers: two for the body, and one for each cornu. Ossification commences in the greater cornua toward the end of fetal development, in the hyoid body shortly afterward, and in the lesser cornua during the first or second year after birth. Until middle age the connection between the body and greater cornu is fibrous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoid_bone

 

[MyBelle]

thank you for the thread, Harmony2

 

[MyBelle]

iirc, Dr. Wecht did say it was broken but his conclusion was that it was broken by strangulation rather than hanging. Dr. Davis agrees with the ME's conclusion it was broken from hanging.

I think Dr. Davis' credentials are impressive. He has a clinical practice in pathology and a specialty in forensic autopsy at the University of Kentucky Hospital.

https://health.usnews.com/doctors/gregory-davis-83905

 

[Betty P]

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-zahau-knots-20180326-story.html

>>>snip

...Also on Monday, Dr. Gregory Davis of the University of Kentucky College of Medicine testified that the county Medicinal Examiner Office was correct to call the death a suicide.

Davis called the 40-page report by Dr. Jonathan Lucas, “one of the finest I’ve come across in my career.”

Davis said the report accurately concluded that Zahau died from her neck breaking in the 9-foot drop from the balcony.

He disagreed with a second autopsy presented earlier by the Zahau family’s lawyer that concluded she died from strangulation...

<<<snip

WTF is this "expert" talking about?! Rebecca's neck wasn't broken! Isn't her AR already a part of the record? How can he say this with a straight face, at this late stage of the trial? DId he not read the AR done by Dr. Lucas? Has he confused his cases here, or what? I don't understand anything about this testimony.

If I was on this jury, I'd discount this witness's testimony completely.

That remark alone, made me wonder if he even read the autopsy report.

 

[Hatfield]

JMO
I would like to see if he really has any documentation about what he testified to here because based on the statistics from a real study I mentioned earlier there is no way 10 out of 30 would involve bindings too unless he only got strange cases of hanging.

The actual study I had mentioned before concluded only 5 of 72 cases even had bindings of the hands. So I really wonder about his testimony.
Show us the proof of this.

"Of 30 suicides he had investigated in his career, Chrisnall said 10 people had bound themselves."

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-zahau-knots-20180326-story.html

 

[*Lash*]

I would assume photos were excluded. However the autopsy report released to the public was 19 pages. First 3 pages are the investigative report signed by DG. Next includes 15 pages of an autopsy report. The last page is the toxicology report.

www.scribd.com/doc/64114521/Reports#

ETA - Remember, Rebecca&#8217;s autopsy was also revised the day of the SDSO press conference on 9/2/2011.

 

[Betty P]

JMO
Assuming this was murder. I have been trying to understand why he would bind the victims hands feet and gag her.

I think he had to. I think his original plan was to just make it look like a suicide by hanging without the bindings but what I think happened is during the course of him trying to subdue her she put up a struggle. So he bound her hands and feet and gagged her to prevent her screaming out.

There were reports of loud music coming from the house that evening before I believe. So I think all the binding and gagging was necessary for him to subdue her.

Then when he wanted to make it look like a suicide he realized she had marks around her wrists already. And fibers from the ropes were around her anyway so he figured investigators would know she was bound already so he decided to leave them all in place.

I think he did research on hangings because he would have found what I read too that it does happen. And after he knew it is possible that some victims will do it themselves he decided to just leave everything on her.

His mistake IMO was the type of extravegant knots he used which pretty much never happens in real cases of self tying hands before hanging. Everything I have read so far in real cases suggests the rarity of people even tying their own hands and feet but even if they do it then they seldom if ever use an extravegant knot.

I cannot believe the conclusion had anything to do with suicide and it is upsetting to see time and time again how suicide is told as the cause when serious questions exist. I think too many times investigators use suicide as a cause when a case becomes difficult to really spend a lot of time and money to really dig into it more. It seems to be a cop out IMO in lots of cases. The ones I worry about the most are jail and prison "suicides" by hanging. I think in lots of cases another prisoner or someone else actually killed the person and made it look like suicde. Its just too easy to not investigate and just rule it a suicide. Especially when funding is low and they dont want to spend more money on elaborate investigations.

bbm

I've always agreed with this scenario. Rebecca put up more of a struggle than he anticipated. She wasn't big or muscular, but she was fit. It caught Adam off guard. He had to work harder to subdue her and, given his fear of being caught, he just went into auto-pilot. He had to work fast and did what was most familiar to him - he bound her up with the same knots he knows so well he could tie them in his sleep.

 

[Pi2016]

I believe this is the primary reason the defense moved from an ‘obvious suicide and our client has nothing to answer to’ position ...to an ‘even if it was murder our client is not the perpetrator’ position.

snip for space

I agree with your assessment and I am not surprised.

I keep thinking about the split verdict and I hope Mr. Greer will comment on that again. It needs to be an option for the jury imo.

At the end of the day I pray the investigation into Rebecca's death will be re-opened by law enforcement.

 

[Betty P]

JMO
I would like to see if he really has any documentation about what he testified to here because based on the statistics from a real study I mentioned earlier there is no way 10 out of 30 would involve bindings too unless he only got strange cases of hanging.

The actual study I had mentioned before concluded only 5 of 72 cases even had bindings of the hands. So I really wonder about his testimony.
Show us the proof of this.

"Of 30 suicides he had investigated in his career, Chrisnall said 10 people had bound themselves."

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-zahau-knots-20180326-story.html

The standard response for Dr. Davis' claims would be "show me your data". Are expert witnesses required to cite their references?

 

[Betty P]

snip for space

I agree with your assessment and I am not surprised.

I keep thinking about the split verdict and I hope Mr. Greer will comment on that again. It needs to be an option for the jury imo.

At the end of the day I pray the investigation into Rebecca's death will be re-opened by law enforcement.

JMO, a split verdict isn't necessary to re-open the investigation into RZ's death. All it usually takes is some indication in the investigation that important evidence was overlooked, mishandled or misrepresented in some way. Sheriff Gore himself has said that he would reopen the investigation if any new evidence is discovered. I think Greer has met that standard here.

IIRC, in the past, the Zahau family has said when RZ's case is re-opened, they want the investigation done by a different agency than SDSO. Can't say I blame them. There are other options available besides SDSO.

But, no, a split verdict isn't necessary. There's enough evidence against Adam and to indicate murder as COD to justify a guilty verdict.

 

[Verboten]

Does it seem as if this decision was last minute and was sprung on the plaintiffs? Why would they have believed it would be Lucas on Monday unless they had been told that? When exactly did Davis receive his brief from the defense?

Yes. Last minute. Greer fully expected Dr. Lucas to take the stand on Monday. They pulled him last minute, per Greer.

 

[MyBelle]

The standard response for Dr. Davis' claims would be "show me your data". Are expert witnesses required to cite their references?

I don't believe they are required to prove anything other than their credentials.The Judge deemed him an expert so it will be up to the jury to decide whether he is credible. JMO

 

[usernamhere]

So IMO here is a scenario that I really think could've have happened:

Complete rigor mortis takes up to 12 hours after death to fully set in, and starts with smaller parts of body first, i.e. eyelids, jaw etc., and larger muscles last. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis) With the time of death range given in this case, it is likely that full rigor mortis had not set in at the time that AS discovered RZ's body. When placing RZ on the ground, or any attempt to move her body, it is likely that one would place arms under the leg, as this is the natural way to carry/pickup/move a body. Furthermore, since RZ's hands were tied behind her back you wouldn't place her directly on her back. This could explain how the body was positioned with legs bent, and slightly on one side. It would make sense as full rigor mortis set in that the legs then became rigid in this position.

As for lividity settling in the back, if a body is moved within a certain time after a hanging death and placed in a different position, then the hypostasis in the limbs will fade and new areas of lividity can appear along the back.

Suicide is sad, tragic, and traumatizing for those left behind. It might not always make sense, and it is understandable that grieving family members do not want to think that their loved one chose to die. However, that does not make it murder.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes. Last minute. Greer fully expected Dr. Lucas to take the stand on Monday. They pulled him last minute, per Greer.

That is not cricket!

 

[Verboten]

Good to see the defense is running scared. It is and it should be.

I understand what a heavy blow this is to Mary but if I was a juror the significance of the ME not jumping up to defend his own work and answer questions wouldn't be lost on me.

I have faith that Greer will make mincemeat of them in his closing speech. The defense is so obviously having to wriggle around the evidence and make leaps that defy common sense logic. You can never call a jury, there are often times surprises, but he doesn't need a unanimous jury here and he only needs to tip the scales.

I don't agree that they should make the case for murder without Adam. As an alternative to nothing it is something, but there is enough to show it was him on a preponderance of the evidence. Just the point of it having to be someone who knew about Max, and his shenanigans on the 911 call and CPR. He says he breathed into her mouth when her jaw was already rigid and the smell alone would have repelled him, yet he has never mentioned it. Smells like that are unforgettable - she had been dead for at least 4 hours. Another case I followed where a mother did CPR on her daughter who had been dead for less time than Rebecca (with her cellphone on loudspeaker with the emergency operator because she could not hold her phone at the same time unlike Adam), was blown back by the stench from her stomach. Adam said nothing about that because he didn't know about it because he didn't do it.

This attack was sexual and deviant:

hogtie
knife handle
plastic bag and strangulation
unnecessary admission to masturbation

No one else (connected with Max) has to justify that last factor. He was worried they would find his sperm, not anyone else's.

I agree with Tortoise and the others here this morning who think the option for murder without Adam should not be offered. There is no reason to do that. There is plenty of evidence against Adam for 9 jurors to find preponderance of the evidence supports it. I hope Greer does not decide to go this route. It seems to be his decision, based on what he said in the podcast with Tricia. I'm glad to hear Bourne report the general feeling in the courtroom about Adam's guilt.

 

[Tortoise]

Hehe! Perhaps they were reading our suggested questions here over the weekend and it scared the pants off them.

 

[Verboten]

Hehe! Perhaps they were reading our suggested questions here over the weekend and it scared the pants off them.

This is not unlikely, imo.

 

[Betty P]

I don't believe they are required to prove anything other than their credentials.The Judge deemed him an expert so it will be up to the jury to decide whether he is credible. JMO

Well, there is this thing called perjury. JMO, that may be what the ME and SDSO witnesses are concerned about. If the investigation is re-opened and new information is revealed, they could be exposed as perjurers if they testify at this civil trial in a less than truthful manner, then are later called to testify in grand jury or trial in a criminal version of this case..

As for Dr. Davis, Mr. Greer will likely extract the data behind his claims on cross examination