CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

[flourish]

I thought LE said they had only been stopped for 5-ish minutes before accelerating over the edge? I had been wondering how much info the black box contained, like how much farther back in time there was data for. Am I remembering this wrong?

If I'm correct, then either Jen had been driving drunk, or perhaps the two women swapped seats during that 5 minute pause... (but since Sarah was also impaired with Benadryl...)

Are you thinking of that because they said they stopped five feet from the highway? I kept getting that five mixed into other facts which is why I'm asking

 

[fridaybaker]

This seems obvious to me: they were stopped for the night and asleep.

I think they pulled over to sleep for the night. Took the belts off. Went to sleep. Then drunk Jen drove them off the cliff.

I think the news accounts have stated that the vehicle only stopped for 7 seconds before speeding off the cliff. (I can go back and look for this. If I find it, I'll post.)

Here is what I think happened, based on the facts we know:

They left the house in haste after the CPS visit, without a plan, or at least without an exact plan. They left to avoid another visit. (They'd been reported before, and they likely thought this might be visit which might, finally, result in serious action, such as the children being taken away.)

They drove hither and yon, Jen all-the-while hatching a plan.

They ended up down the coast, wherein Jen's plan began to take shape: She either bought (or had brought with her) some Benedryl, so took the opportunity to lace food/drink with it -all of them -Sarah's and the children's. This could have happened in a variety of ways, but likely she didn't even tell them to take it to sleep. It would be harder to get ALL of them to take it. I think she probably just put it in drinks/sprinkled it on food, etc. (Benedryl can be very sedating, even at low doses in children and/or adults who aren't used to taking it.) At this point, they were pulled over the side of the road for a snack, meal, etc.

After all were decidedly drowsy or asleep, she continued on with her plan, nipping on whatever she usually liked to drink, and starting to drive along the coastal highway. Finally, she found what looked like an appropriate spot -no guardrails, everyone asleep or very drowsy, no seatbelts..... By this time, she had enough alcohol on board so that the inhibitions were gone, pulled into the spot. Stopped for a few seconds to guage exactly whered they'd go off, get up the courage, etc. Then, off the cliff they went.

Also, I always wince when I read that she was "drunk". Her BAC was very slightly above the legal limit to drive, so I think tipsy would be a better description. Not so much that she hardly knew what she was doing, but enough to remove the natural inhibitions. Just my thoughts.

 

[mtnlites]

I believe they stopped there to rest/sleep, and took off their seatbelts to get comfy. Jen drank some alcohol, and went over once everyone was asleep. I dont think they went over as soon as they got there and I imagine they had their seatbelts on prior to stopping. IMO.

I tend to agree with you, but I also know people who absolutely refuse to wear seatbelts. They just won't do it. They don't make their children do it, either. Their reasoning is that the government shouldn't be in charge of what they do inside of their own vehicle.

 

[human]

This seems obvious to me: they were stopped for the night and asleep.

I think they pulled over to sleep for the night. Took the belts off. Went to sleep. Then drunk Jen drove them off the cliff.

There are maybe 8 people in that car. Sleeping in the car and then going for more long long hours of driving to go,home? Sleeping in an exposed wayside scenic spot where anyone can stop at look,at,you?

I do not get why Sarah would go along with this plan.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Are you thinking of that because they said they stopped five feet from the highway? I kept getting that five mixed into other facts which is why I'm asking

Aha that could well be! Thanks. Thanks just the kind of mistake I would make.

I wonder if we know whether they kept the engine running when they stopped (for what I now see might have been a longer time period) or whether it went off and then back on.

 

[human]

I think the news accounts have stated that the vehicle only stopped for 7 seconds before speeding off the cliff. (I can go back and look for this. If I find it, I'll post.)

Here is what I think happened, based on the facts we know:

They left the house in haste after the CPS visit, without a plan, or at least without an exact plan. They left to avoid another visit. (They'd been reported before, and they likely thought this might be visit which might, finally, result in serious action, such as the children being taken away.)

They drove hither and yon, Jen all-the-while hatching a plan.

They ended up down the coast, wherein Jen's plan began to take shape: She either bought (or had brought with her) some Benedryl, so took the opportunity to lace food/drink with it -all of them -Sarah's and the children's. This could have happened in a variety of ways, but likely she didn't even tell them to take it to sleep. It would be harder to get ALL of them to take it. I think she probably just put it in drinks/sprinkled it on food, etc. (Benedryl can be very sedating, even at low doses in children and/or adults who aren't used to taking it.) At this point, they were pulled over the side of the road for a snack, meal, etc.

After all were decidedly drowsy or asleep, she continued on with her plan, nipping on whatever she usually liked to drink, and starting to drive along the coastal highway. Finally, she found what looked like an appropriate spot -no guardrails, everyone asleep or very drowsy, no seatbelts..... By this time, she had enough alcohol on board so that the inhibitions were gone, pulled into the spot. Stopped for a few seconds to guage exactly whered they'd go off, get up the courage, etc. Then, off the cliff they went.

Also, I always wince when I read that she was "drunk". Her BAC was very slightly above the legal limit to drive, so I think tipsy would be a better description. Not so much that she hardly knew what she was doing, but enough to remove the natural inhibitions. Just my thoughts.

It depends on if she was a professional drinker or not. That is what my husband calls them. People who have been drinking for so long that they do not appear drunk. They can function at much higher levels of alcohol

 

[Whiteorchids]

This seems obvious to me: they were stopped for the night and asleep.

I think they pulled over to sleep for the night. Took the belts off. Went to sleep. Then drunk Jen drove them off the cliff.

This is what I think happened as well.

 

[mtnlites]

"It's much more likely that Devonte's tears came from being hugged by someone in authority who could give a great bear hug, with no obligation. Tears like that can easily come from being held"

Likely his tears were from being so close to help, yet so far away! He had to go home with those abusive witches!

I am really flummoxed at all the the attempt to explain away these two women and the sympathy and empathy some seemingly feel for them. It's like two semi attractive white women, and so many excuses/explanations are made.

I feel sympathy for anyone who suffers from mental illness. I am not going to internet diagnosis either woman but, from their actions, it doesn't seem that they were mentally stable and healthy. So yes, I feel sorry for them. I am also waiting on more official word from LE or medical professionals before passing too much judgment. So much of what we've had so far has been anecdotal information but hasn't necessarily been corroborated by anyone with a professional opinion. Just because I am reserving too much judgment for now, and because I do have sympathy for the women, does NOT mean that I think they were justified in their actions.

 

[Whiteorchids]

I tend to agree with you, but I also know people who absolutely refuse to wear seatbelts. They just won't do it. They don't make their children do it, either. Their reasoning is that the government shouldn't be in charge of what they do inside of their own vehicle.

My car if no belts I refuse to drive anyone simple as that. I will not feel guilty if they died because I drove them without belts on.

 

[chihuahua]

"It's much more likely that Devonte's tears came from being hugged by someone in authority who could give a great bear hug, with no obligation. Tears like that can easily come from being held"

Likely his tears were from being so close to help, yet so far away! He had to go home with those abusive witches!

I am really flummoxed at all the the attempt to explain away these two women and the sympathy and empathy some seemingly feel for them. It's like two semi attractive white women, and so many excuses/explanations are made.

I have followed this case from the very start from afar.
My heart is broken. As a human, as a woman, as a spirit and as a child of adoption.
I also have zero sympathy for the two women who did this.
Sorry I just don't.:tantrum:
jmho

 

[Whiteorchids]

It depends on if she was a professional drinker or not. That is what my husband calls them. People who have been drinking for so long that they do not appear drunk. They can function at much higher levels of alcohol

One of their friends was surprised Jen had alcohol in her system that Jen and Sarah were not drinkers even when they ordered Pizza they ordered Pepsi. It could mean one or both were alcoholics staying sober or they just didn’t like to drink or Jen was a closet drinker.

 

[mtnlites]

My car if no belts I refuse to drive anyone simple as that. I will not feel guilty if they died because I drove them without belts on.

I won't drive without belts, either. I was just offering up an explanation that I have heard from others. Despite the information that we have that would normally make one fasten up, some people still don't. It might sound crazy to the rest of us, but it still happens.

 

[NicoleH]

I tend to agree with you, but I also know people who absolutely refuse to wear seatbelts. They just won't do it. They don't make their children do it, either. Their reasoning is that the government shouldn't be in charge of what they do inside of their own vehicle.

This is true. The only reason I feel like they were wearing seatbelts at some point is because I have seen several photos of the Hart children wearing seatbelts in the car at various points in time. Of course, that doesn't mean they never made exceptions. My husband once let my stepson take off his seat belt so he could sleep while driving to TN. I threw a big fit about it, so he doesn't do that anymore.

 

[SarahW]

Keep in mind her reported BAC may be a cautious figure. Sampling for toxicology after death can get complicated depending on the state of the body. Her BAC may have been higher. I heard they were not able to test using the brain and I'm not sure if vitreous humor was available for cross checking. http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/post-mortem/

 

[SarahW]

Do,they know the source of the alcohol? I mean, NyQuil or some other OTC liquid medication, if downed in quantity, could do the trick. Was there a bottle to hand ( a la Diane Schuler) or perhaps purchased at the grocery?

 

[mtnlites]

Do,they know the source of the alcohol? I mean, NyQuil or some other OTC liquid medication, if downed in quantity, could do the trick. Was there a bottle to hand ( a la Diane Schuler) or perhaps purchased at the grocery?

Nyquil can show up on a BAC, but you'd have to drink an awful lot of it to get to those levels. Not saying that she couldn't have, just that it would take a lot.

 

[drama_farmer]

I won't drive without belts, either. I was just offering up an explanation that I have heard from others. Despite the information that we have that would normally make one fasten up, some people still don't. It might sound crazy to the rest of us, but it still happens.

Congratulations, mtnlites, you've just come up with the perfect tagline for Websleuths:

It might sound crazy to the rest of us, but it still happens.

:happydance:

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Do,they know the source of the alcohol? I mean, NyQuil or some other OTC liquid medication, if downed in quantity, could do the trick. Was there a bottle to hand ( a la Diane Schuler) or perhaps purchased at the grocery?

Good point. It is also true that having alcohol in her system doesn't mean she was normally a drinker. People sometimes drink alcohol to commit suicide even when they normally don't drink at all.

 

[rosemadderlake]

*Modsnip*...

All this brings it back to that one iconic photograph. Devonte hugging the police officer... The global event. I'm sure that J&S didn't count on that, but couldn't handle the positive feedback...

Why? How much negative feedback was received? One comment? While I totally acknowledge the questioning ipso-facto, was there any admonishing at the time? Any links?

No, because Devonte was a happy child. I posted up thread, when I first saw the photo I thought Devonte (street kid) was a thoroughly spontaneous event.

To my horror, I learned he was coerced. In tears before the photo... Scared of the officer. Because of course, he was trained to be... It just makes me so distraught.

Here he was, little Devonte, pushed before a force, a police officer, someone who he was trained to be scared of, but yet pushed front and center, and then BAM... An iconic photo circulates the world with its own narrative...

Folks, I don't know, but I grew up in an age of permission. No way, no absolute way would my parents or I ever consent to publishing of photos or videos.

Does anyone remember the Loud Family? Omg... How horrifying that was? And look, how horrifying it is now on SM???

 

[Tricia]

There is wild speculation about everything under the sun with this family with no supporting facts, but we cannot speculate that these white women exploited these children? Objectifying the children to portray themselves as special, progressive, loving people, without any indication that they did anything to keep their kids connected to their culture. That is also abuse.

We have no idea if these women did anything to keep their kids connected to their culture. We also don't have any evidence to suggest they withheld any connection to their past lives. We just don't know.

All we are trying to do is stop a discussion that will go nowhere and get everyone all upset. Every Single Time we try and have a discussion about race this is exactly what happens.

I don't think it's a secret what these women were trying to do. Whether it was with black kids, Hispanic kids, Guatemalan, kids it is obvious these women were trying to show they were great people to take on the challenge of raising all these older kids. In reality, these women were monsters because of the way they treated their kids.Their kids became the victims of their cruelty.

Other than the fact they chose African American kids rather than other minority children is really all that needs to be said about race. I hope I am not making things harder to understand. Discuss their motives in adopting older minority children. Hope this clears things up.

Tricia