CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

Discussion in '2010's Missing' started by cybervampira, Mar 28, 2018.

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  1. mtnlites

    mtnlites President of the Imaginary Friends' Club

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    ATMS and individual banks can set their own limits. My bank allows me to withdraw $250 per day in cash. I am able to spend $1,000 per day on my card. My husband's caps are higher-his bank allows him to withdraw $500 and spend $2,000. If you need to spend more then you can call your bank and request an increase. You can either get a temporary increase for 24 hours or you can set it higher permanently. I generally request an increase several times a year because we travel a lot for my job and I need to both book multiple airline tickets and have a bit of cash on hand.

    As Tallulah said, they could have also used a pre-paid credit card. In that case, there wouldn't be any traceable online transactions until LE actually got ahold of the card itself and was able to look up the account number.

    I always figure that LE holds onto about twice as much information as they release. I don't know what the purpose of not sharing the information now would be, though.
     
  2. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    I was asking if ATM’s have limits. It does not matter if my limit is $100,000 a day. The ATM only gives out $150 a day where I live. Sometimes they run out of money.

    It seems like they left late at night. Can you buy a prepaid bank card anywhere?
    Do you think people keep prepaid bank cards on hand?

    How many miles per gallon does their car get? How many miles , about, did they drive? What is the cost of gas where they were driving?
     
  3. Shiressleuth

    Shiressleuth Former Member

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    About 11 hours driving and 600 miles so maybe two gas stops at most. I think it was mentioned it was a Safeway card (sorry no link - from memory only).

    Car was found 3.39pm Monday and there was no answer when CPS called on the Friday. So was Sarah at work Friday? I don't think it is known when the car went off the cliff but perhaps Sunday night? When was the 3am text sent by Sarah? 3 a.m. Sunday or Monday? This could help tie down whether they camped anywhere en route. I think they just slept in the car maybe Saturday night, that's all, and went off the cliff late Sunday night early Monday morning.
     
  4. antechinusRAWR

    antechinusRAWR Active Member

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    These threads are really, really hard to read some days so I just want to thank human for pointing this out & I also want to attempt to outline some of the issues for those who are unaware of why it's viewed as problematic

    A lot of people have trouble understanding why First Nations communities have concerns over child removal, & not just on WS, this is something that comes up a lot. So first up I want to make clear that although it's often misrepresented this way, it doesn't mean all child removal is opposed. It doesn't mean people are demanding children be left in dangerously abusive homes.

    But let me be clear,

    The concerns over removals are valid & do not compare in any way to the unfounded complaints some people make over gay adoption.

    The difference between these removals/placements vs placement of children with gay couples is that there's no history ever of an LGBTQ govt enforcing mass removals of heterosexual children & placing them with gay couples to "civilise" them & train them as a child workforce for the LGBTQ community. But this did happen to generations of First Nations children in Canada (Residential Schools), & Australia (Stolen Generation) - within living memory, & frequently to the parents, grandparents & great grandparents of kids being removed this decade. (I'm less familiar with U.S practices but I know there's history there too).

    & the LGBTQ community isn't currently continuing this practice in a sanitised, contemporary form by removing statistically higher rates of heterosexual kids while simultaneously rejecting heterosexual kinship & community carers on the grounds they're "unsuitable", thereby creating a situation where there's an increasing number of heterosexual children requiring placement, but barely any approved heterosexual carers to take them.

    I find that many people view the complaints as frivolous, obstructive & unneccessary & I agree, they probably do appear that way at face value, but dig deeper, learn the true history & it's devastating ongoing impact, learn what's really happening right now, & you'll end up with a very different picture.

    For instance, few people realise there are identical First Nations child removal crises occurring again in Canada, the U.S & Australia.

    Removing First Nations kids frequently results in lifelong trauma & damage even if kids aren't placed in an abusive or neglectful environment. Many kids completely lose their language & culture, & then when they turn 18 & want to come home they can't even communicate with their own family. As adults they're socially isolated, feeling that they don't fit in anywhere.

    In Australia, Aboriginal child removal also breaks the 60,000+ year connection to traditional lands, which then precludes removed kids from taking part in Native Title claims - so the govt has a vested interest in removing kids from communities that have strong ties to their traditional lands. Land theft isn't a 19th century thing, it's ongoing & child removal is an underhanded method of dispossession.

    Loss of language & culture via child removal also contributes to the extinction of language & culture - & hence leads to forced assimilation - which is why the International Convention For The Prevention of Genocide lists this type of child removal as a component of genocide :

    http://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.html

    I've never met, or heard of an adult who was happy they were removed, & if you've seen the movie "Rabbit Proof Fence", please understand that there's a new Stolen Generation happening right now & it's bigger than the first.

    https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/feature/women-fighting-against-rising-tide-indigenous-child-removals


    Since the Hart's hit the news again last month I've realised that many of the systemic issues we see in First Nations child removals in Australia are (*generally speaking*) also present in the removal of Black kids in the U.S, so while much I've said here in this post doesn't apply, there are still a lot of common factors.
     
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  5. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    antechinusRAWR

    Thanks for your excellent post . I have friends in Australia so on FB they post info about First Nations. Sometimes I think I am reading about the US. So similar in so many ways. The natives of the US are also the same.

    In the US, there is no history of what happened taught in school and even in education, people are not taught about the subtleties of things people do that are not acceptable. As Flourish said, you don’t know what you don’t know.

    Why did these women want to adopt black kids? And three at once, no less. And why did they not see that they had issues when they beat the child and held her head under water?

    It was all about having this fake personna? It seems they were singled out as super special in their groups. Is that what counted because they said they had issues from other people ,apparently, that were negative

    I wonder what they got. Gifts from people? Vacations? Or was the cash from adoptiom what fhey wanted? A job would have been easier.
     
  6. Shiressleuth

    Shiressleuth Former Member

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  7. rosemadderlake

    rosemadderlake Well-Known Member

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    ‘Tribe’ of Devonte Hart family friends continues to defend mothers amid evidence of abuse, murder-suicide

    The family members killed when their SUV went over a cliff in Northern California last week belonged to a “huge, huge tribe of friends,” a tribe that seems largely unwilling to face the mounting evidence that Sarah and Jennifer Hart were likely abusive parents, and that one of them may have killed at least three of their children in an apparent murder-suicide.

    “If you had asked me two weeks ago I would have just ranted and raved and told you how wonderful and perfect they are,” said Arlain Ingeldew, who knew the Harts as fellow members of a community she described as a group of hundreds of people drawn together by music, who attended the same festivals. Arlain said that she would often camp alongside the Hart family at Harmony Park, an outdoor event venue next to Lake Geneva in southern Minnesota.

    CrimeOnline has reached out to several people believed to be part of this so-called community, of which little is known, and only Arlain agreed to speak.

    “The festivals we go to are all about the music and art and loving nature and loving each other,” she said. “And harmony.”

    “They were just idolized for being the perfect family.”


    Devonte gained national attention in 2014 when he was photographed in a tearful embrace with Sgt. Bret Barnum of the Portland Police Department, during a demonstration in the city to support the anti-police brutality protests in Ferguson, Missouri.

    A relative of Sgt. Barnum’s told CrimeOnline last week that the officer had reached out to the family after his photograph with Devonte became a media fixture. But according to that relative, the Harts rebuffed his attempts to meet with them.

    http://www.crimeonline.com/2018/04/...others-amid-evidence-of-abuse-murder-suicide/


    ---

    The sliver of hope that Devonte and Hannah and the dogs could still be alive is perhaps because "their community" has not been forthcoming? Very defensive. Maybe too in shock. Perhaps there is an "off the grid" network that communicates not by phone but by just showing up?

    If Devonte and Hannah were dropped off with someone under a false pretense, like care for our rebel children while Sarah goes to the hospital, would they now be terrified, or the kids terrified at the potential implications, accessory, safety, being separated?

    I know I am reaching here, but from the woman's recollections, the community is large, it's altruistic, and skeptical of traditional institutions... Even if the Harts did not have close friendships, it is perhaps a large elusive network?

    The other piece I did not know was the officer reached out to meet Devonte after their photo became famous. So, that's two prominent people, he and Ken, who were rebuffed. So, these women turned away from the positive feedback, too.
     
  8. mtnlites

    mtnlites President of the Imaginary Friends' Club

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    That's so bizarre, the way they've chosen to characterize this. I've posted about having indirect connections to the Harts (we has mutual friends) and it was through this "community" of which the reporter writes. They make it sound like a weird cult. It's really not. It's just a bunch of people who seem to make the same festival/concert/reclaimation/Renaissance fairs/peace rallies rounds and wind up befriending each other because they spend time together. That's it. People have various jobs, different religious beliefs, they're different races and of economic statuses, and are of varying ages. I mean, you spend enough time going to these things and you meet other people. You go to several and you start seeing the same people over and over again. You become friends. You send each other FB friend requests and mail cards to each other on birthdays. That's pretty much it. Ha ha, it's not like there's even a FB "group" that's been created for any of it.

    Just here on this board I've connected with several different posters who have attended some of the same fairs and rallies as me and as the Harts. We've connected with each other like, hey, you too? Cool, we have stuff in common! But there's no secret handshake...unfortunately.

    I'm not really digging this cult-like way of looking at it.
     
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  9. rosemadderlake

    rosemadderlake Well-Known Member

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    Another thought is could the investigators be excercising caution about releasing certain information in case Devonte and Hannah are still alive?

    Like full autopsy reports. Or, maybe not giving away certain contact info. Or, not releasing certain info found at the house.
     
  10. LonelyChild

    LonelyChild Member

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    Does anyone have the link to the full dr oz show?

    Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
     
  11. Poppyflower

    Poppyflower Well-Known Member

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    She used a Safeway "club card" that was assigned to her name when she purchased the bananas along with other things that day. They track what you purchase so the police has that info. I wish they would share what was purchased that day.

    Thanks for all your posts mtnlites :D

    PS. I posted this many threads ago but I don't think the kids left the suv at all that trip. People could recognized Devonte, the family and/or they're a unique family and people would remember them- not good when you're or think you're on the run from police and/or CPS. I think they may have peed in the suv or on the side of the road very briefly, in an isolated area. Sad thought, could they have been drugged most of the time on that trip?

    That photo of Ciera makes my heart hurt and bring tears to my eyes. She is so beautiful and her smile speaks to me. I wish I could scoop her up and care for her myself.
     
  12. rosemadderlake

    rosemadderlake Well-Known Member

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    Not so sure cult is the implication, but I know from my own original hippy days the deep distrust people held of certain institutions. -Days forged in resistance, music, and alternatives. And many forged an alternative lifestyle that they feel protective about. I know several completely off the grid. Of course we were always worried about getting busted, for MJ, too.

    And the woman who did speak dosen't describe it as a cult. My take away from the article is that it is very shocking, still. Why? Because the Hart tragedy is about as far away from harmony as it gets.

    And it could be that that shock, that sorrow, has made the Hart Tribe community feel betrayed, too? Jen Hart kept a public narrative and was well known in her circles. They were idolized by many of the comments I've read.
     
  13. kizzykat

    kizzykat Well-Known Member

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    Just catching up. A thought I had. They had a big lot and a riding mower (we saw Devonte in a picture on one). Most people keep gas on hand for lawn mowers, etc. and for riding mowers and/or in rural areas, larger gas cans for bigger equipment. In a hurry, no real plan, maybe they took extra gas can(s) from home?

    The 2003 GMC Yukon had a fuel tank capacity of 32 gallons. How far it got on a tank would depend on city/hwy driving and the model. (See "Fuel & MPG" specs at Edmunds link below). My figures are all approximates. I'm using mileage average of the 3 Yukon XL models since we don't know which they had. So average 522 miles of highway travel on a full tank. The trip from Woodland, WA to Naselle, WA to Ft Bragg, CA was approximately 675 miles if they took the coast. If they started out with a full tank in the Yukon, they could've made it to approximately McKinleyville, CA (527 miles) before they ran out. Then from McKinleyville, CA to Ft Bragg = additional 148 miles along the coast.
    This is where the gas can(s) come into play. Two 5 gal gas cans would get them 10 gals or about 1/3 a tank of gas, approximately another 174 miles of travel. (522 miles per tank x .333 = 174) So McKinleyville to Ft Bragg with enough gas for abt 26 miles left. One 5 gal gas can would get them half that distance, or approximately another 87 miles, putting them about 61 miles short of Ft Bragg. Or, maybe they had a 5 gal can and a 2 gal can. If my estimates are correct 7 gallons total would put them right about Ft Bragg.
    I hope this makes sense. The above figures are all approximate, but I'm wondering if they had a full tank in the Yukon, took gas they had on hand at home with them, and traveled as far as their gas would take them, and that's why they ended up where they did? And that's why there's no evidence yet of them getting gas anywhere? And since no gas can(s) mentioned in debris, maybe they simply left the empty can(s) at the point they were used.

    Of course how far they got would depend on how much gas was in the car when they started and how much they took with them. But with a full tank and the right amount of extra gas cans this seems a plausible possibility? It's early and I'm low on caffeine so feel free to shoot holes in this theory.
    https://www.edmunds.com/gmc/yukon-xl/2003/features-specs/
     
  14. babyblujems

    babyblujems New Member

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    As a former reunification worker for MA DCF, a lot of things you said have merit. The child playing outside should have been screened out without a second thought. And unless the mother of the child with CP was not adhering to medical plans and interventions that was wrong the others I understand the reason for interviews and meetings. Here it is very difficult to remove children from a home, it requires a court order and specific examples of abuse with immediate danger to the child. Each state has a different structure and framework so your experiences would not have been able to come to fruition in other states.
    For example, here I had a child who was being denied food and water in front of myself and his IHT team. He was also expected to clean with dangerous chemicals and all but locked in his room due to what Dad called "homicidal behavioral tendancies." The IHT team and myself saw bruises and filed several times, 9 in 2 weeks between us. His school filed due to him stealing food from others. The state didn't even come out, we were told there wasn't enough proof to open a case. Eight months later that child was admitted to the hospital unresponsive with major bruising, malnutrion and scarring and burns from caustic cleaners. In July it will be three years that he has been in a coma.
    While I don't disagree that you should weigh the decision heavily, I think that there were several breakdowns in CPS where you live. Any mandated reporter training teaches you how not to further traumatize the child.and unless a report states that a child is sexually abuses there should be no questions about that during intake. Often here, especially on cases that end up screened out, the worker plays with the child or children and talks to them normally to discern information. Also, our social workers often have to have a psychology background
     
  15. liltexans

    liltexans Retired WS Staff

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    This thread is very long. I'm going to work on a new thread, which should be ready in about 10 minutes.
     
  16. Shiressleuth

    Shiressleuth Former Member

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    From the MSM reports by the neighbour in the first thread, on the Friday, Jen came back from work (I didn't think she worked? ) but didn't answer the door to CPS. Waited for Sarah to come back from work then all of them left in the car leaving chickens and pet at home. So they all left Friday after work.
     
  17. liltexans

    liltexans Retired WS Staff

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    This thread is closed. Please continue the discussion in Thread #6.
     
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