OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #32

[RAISINISBACK]

Now we know total silence can happen....

http://crimefeed.com/2018/04/12-peo...campaign=investigationdiscovery&sf187687775=1

I posted the link to the interviews and affidavit above.

This is the real shame though. That and the fact that these two PI's found evidence two days after the murders that led them to the trailer house where the girls were being held. They could not get LE to help them or even give serious consideration to the evidence they found. Indeed they were told to stop their investigation. Would these two girls have been found alive if LE had followed up on what the PI's found two days after the trailer burned?

[FONT=&quot]. After Dugan died in 2009, his family said that they tried to give files on the Freeman case to the Craig County Sheriff’s Office, but that the sheriff’s office refused to take them. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Pryor claims he was actually instructed, by local law enforcement, to halt his investigation into the case.[/FONT]

 

[Starling]

Law enforcement have zeroed in on one family. They got this.

 

[rsd1200]

Thank you! Very interesting! They sound like they could be members from Websleuths discussing this case.

My sticking point is the custody issue only fits with the murders of DR, HMR, and CRjr, and even then, a jury panel could find the murders of even 3 people murdered not solid evidence of custody motive. As Betty has so graciously reminded us, there are other witnesses that have testified to the Grand Jury besides JM and that testimony is kept from public until the time of a trial. We only know about the fact he testified because that was his deal after destroying the tracking device. I expect that BJM has testified and the 2 people with her that morning have also testified. Dewine, per the podcast, says they have received over 1,000 tips involving the case, so there is probably a lot of information in those tips.

For me, Kenneth's death doesn't fit for the custody issue. Yes, it is possible, but proving it and getting a conviction are another matter. As RSD has stated, if the W's and R's were in business with the pot and other drugs (which if there were other drugs LE has definitely kept that fact under wraps quite well), maybe that is the motive for Kenneth's death.

The land, to me, appears to be a far bigger motive in the total of the case. It is a huge tract of land, 30 miles wide, if the CNN news report was correct. Perhaps the size of a small county.

It could be possible that someone close to the R's had a beef with them, knew about the custody friction between JW and HMR, and enlisted them to get inside information on the layouts of the trailers and information on the arrival of DR from work - which might explain the text between JW and JM. I can't see the W's giving 2 cents regarding the land. They have land or possibly will inherit land in the future.

I do find it strange that outwardly the W's seem to have been treated with kid gloves by LE. Then again, they say they have cooperated from the beginning, whereas at least one Manley, did not cooperate, and LE seems to have resorted to a bit of dirty pool to get his cooperation. And by LM's own admission, LE and the M's seemed to be at odds from prior to the murders. It's complicated. I think Dewine, Junk and Reader have a pretty good idea of what went down and why, but proving it and getting the evidence, circumstantial and/or physical, is the challenge in resolving these murders. JW said he had put the crib together for baby S, so I think his fingerprints at that crime scene would not be evidence he was involved with DR's, HMR's and CRjr's murders. LE really needs the murder weapons in my opinion, and I think that ship sailed 2 years ago.

BBM

Same. If it had been HMR, CR2, DR, and also CR1, I'd be thinking more in that direction. FR, HHG, KR, nor GR, had a thing to do with custody. Honestly, it was between the parents, HMR and JW.

I've heard that, about the crib, but I think it was for baby K, a couple days before HMR gave birth.

I think that the firearms were long gone the night of the murders. Probably at the bottom of the river, in a well somewhere, or a ravine in the mountains. If it was planned as well as they said, I believe they'd have lost those firearms quick. Might've even been something smaller so they could easily toss it afterwards.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

RSBM for focus

My sticking point is the custody issue only fits with the murders of DR, HMR, and CRjr, and even then, a jury panel could find the murders of even 3 people murdered not solid evidence of custody motive. As Betty has so graciously reminded us, there are other witnesses that have testified to the Grand Jury besides JM and that testimony is kept from public until the time of a trial. We only know about the fact he testified because that was his deal after destroying the tracking device. I expect that BJM has testified and the 2 people with her that morning have also testified. Dewine, per the podcast, says they have received over 1,000 tips involving the case, so there is probably a lot of information in those tips.

The only other thing that sticks with me surrounding custody issues or more so the dynamics between JW & HR is that I’m sure JW was aware that baby K could be HG’s brother’s child (we know he was aware there was a chance baby K was not his). Unfortunately, we don’t have the privilege to know the actual conversations and feelings concerning this because all of the people who would speak about it are now dead and the other person who does have the knowledge of what those conversations were will never paint a picture that’s not flattering to himself. It’s JMO, but I’m sure there was contention over this. But as you said below, Kenneth’s death doesn’t fit for the custody issue and it doesn’t fit for the paternity issue either.

For me, Kenneth's death doesn't fit for the custody issue. Yes, it is possible, but proving it and getting a conviction are another matter. As RSD has stated, if the W's and R's were in business with the pot and other drugs (which if there were other drugs LE has definitely kept that fact under wraps quite well), maybe that is the motive for Kenneth's death.

Perhaps a group effort? Those who had interest in the land worked with those who had interest in custody? Anything’s possible. It’s so hard to not dive down rabbit holes and in depth theories regarding this case because the lack of public info is beyond scarce.

The land, to me, appears to be a far bigger motive in the total of the case. It is a huge tract of land, 30 miles wide, if the CNN news report was correct. Perhaps the size of a small county.

It could be possible that someone close to the R's had a beef with them, knew about the custody friction between JW and HMR, and enlisted them to get inside information on the layouts of the trailers and information on the arrival of DR from work - which might explain the text between JW and JM. I can't see the W's giving 2 cents regarding the land. They have land or possibly will inherit land in the future.

I do find it strange that outwardly the W's seem to have been treated with kid gloves by LE. Then again, they say they have cooperated from the beginning, whereas at least one Manley, did not cooperate, and LE seems to have resorted to a bit of dirty pool to get his cooperation. And by LM's own admission, LE and the M's seemed to be at odds from prior to the murders. It's complicated. I think Dewine, Junk and Reader have a pretty good idea of what went down and why, but proving it and getting the evidence, circumstantial and/or physical, is the challenge in resolving these murders. JW said he had put the crib together for baby S, so I think his fingerprints at that crime scene would not be evidence he was involved with DR's, HMR's and CRjr's murders. LE really needs the murder weapons in my opinion, and I think that ship sailed 2 years ago.

I mentioned a couple threads back how JW being present in Dana’s house established opportunity on his behalf to explain away any of his DNA being found. Honestly, it could’ve been found at every crime scene and he could’ve explained it because again as we know, none of the people who lived in these homes are alive to corroborate his explanations. At the end of the day, I truly hope he had nothing to do with this because that just brings more devastation to an innocent child.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Now we know total silence can happen....

http://crimefeed.com/2018/04/12-peo...campaign=investigationdiscovery&sf187687775=1

OT BUT how do people close their eyes at night knowing something like this?! Let alone 12 people sleeping peacefully on the truth for 20 years.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

OT BUT how do people close their eyes at night knowing something like this?! Let alone 12 people sleeping peacefully on the truth for 20 years.

They were all drug addicts. If the addiction is strong enough it overshadows everything and takes away all morals. Remember these three men were supplying those who knew with meth. there were ones who did speak out like the PI's who were ignored and the young man who was called a liar by the investigators. None of these three men were professional hitmen. They were drug dealers. Yet they got away with this crime for almost 20 years. It was not because the LE was idiots, but because the killers intimidated everyone who knew. But the biggest threat was if they talked they meth supply would be cut off. That's a powerful motive to stay silent. I can't help but think of all the arrests of meth "cooker"/dealers and other drug arrests that have been made on properties owned by the elder W's. Could something like what happened in OK be happening in the R's case?

I know it is O/T but I honestly feel like something similar is happening in the R's case.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

They were all drug addicts. If the addiction is strong enough it overshadows everything and takes away all morals. Remember these three men were supplying those who knew with meth. there were ones who did speak out like the PI's who were ignored and the young man who was called a liar by the investigators. None of these three men were professional hitmen. They were drug dealers. Yet they got away with this crime for almost 20 years. It was not because the LE was idiots, but because the killers intimidated everyone who knew. But the biggest threat was if they talked they meth supply would be cut off. That's a powerful motive to stay silent. I can't help but think of all the arrests of meth "cooker"/dealers and other drug arrests that have been made on properties owned by the elder W's. Could something like what happened in OK be happening in the R's case?

I know it is O/T but I honestly feel like something similar is happening in the R's case.

I think anything is possible in this case. I’ve researched a lot of my own theories on this case and it just seems that no matter the theory, nothing can ever be ruled out because of the lack of factual information the public has been given.

 

[Betty P]

I think anything is possible in this case. I’ve researched a lot of my own theories on this case and it just seems that no matter the theory, nothing can ever be ruled out because of the lack of factual information the public has been given.

I agree. Much of what has happened in both cases depends on how LE go about doing their job, working with the public, applying community pressure to get witnesses to come forward. Most of the time they're right in how they handle these kinds of cases, but sometimes the standard operating procedures don't work as they should. Maybe striking terror in the hearts of the community at large isn't the best way to get the information you need.

 

[Bootsctr]

They were all drug addicts. If the addiction is strong enough it overshadows everything and takes away all morals. Remember these three men were supplying those who knew with meth. there were ones who did speak out like the PI's who were ignored and the young man who was called a liar by the investigators. None of these three men were professional hitmen. They were drug dealers. Yet they got away with this crime for almost 20 years. It was not because the LE was idiots, but because the killers intimidated everyone who knew. But the biggest threat was if they talked they meth supply would be cut off. That's a powerful motive to stay silent. I can't help but think of all the arrests of meth "cooker"/dealers and other drug arrests that have been made on properties owned by the elder W's. Could something like what happened in OK be happening in the R's case?

I know it is O/T but I honestly feel like something similar is happening in the R's case.

Speaking hypothetically, after hearing what happened in the girls' case, it does seem that LE is taking a hardline (tracking device) to make sure witnesses tell what they know in order to prevent years of silence from happening in the R's case. However, LE is still saying they cannot protect these people and I am sure the M's must feel like they have a huge target on their backs even now three years in.

 

[Betty P]

Speaking hypothetically, after hearing what happened in the girls' case, it does seem that LE is taking a hardline (tracking device) to make sure witnesses tell what they know in order to prevent years of silence from happening in the R's case. However, LE is still saying they cannot protect these people and I am sure the M's must feel like they have a huge target on their backs even now three years in.

Looking back on the case, if it's ever solved LE may regret the "we cannot protect you" stance with the families and the community. Surely there are some positive examples out there of LE using the right approach to get information from addicts who may have information about a serious crime. Addicts don't think or behave like normal people, their addiction damages their brains and their psyche. I find the case in Oklahoma to be baffling in that they already had some good evidence to connect the killers to the murders of that family. It seems less a matter of why didn't the addicts confess what they knew than why didn't LE find better ways to get information from them.

Slightly off topic, but the news is breaking about the possible resolution of another cold, cold case, the EAR/ONS.

Turns out the guy worked in law enforcement through the first several years of his crime spree. Many are speculating that it explains how he used training and inside information to choose targets and evade detection

https://www.thedailybeast.com/golde...rding-to-co-author-of-ill-be-gone-in-the-dark

 

[Betty P]

I would also add to the above that, with all the arrests and Grand Juries convened in the last 2 years, LE may have gotten all they're going to find from the local gentry. If this was a professional hit, the person who ordered it probably doesn't live in the community, nor do the actual killers.

The only former locals who might know who called in the hit are now living in AK. There may be a few local drug/MJ traffickers in the area who also might know (probably why they busted the Eurys). Any of that info should have come out in the GJ, though. LE probably has an idea of who the boss(es) are and they'll have to rely on LE in the areas where they're located.

Why can't they call in members of the W family to testify in the GJ? Surely they've checked their phone records from that night and the weeks before. Are they waiting for a lot of physical evidence? They may wait a long time for that. Junk probably knows if he has to go up against an organized crime boss, they'll have a lot of high priced legal representation. They may just have to be satisfied in busting the top people on some other charge.

 

[Dudly]

Law enforcement have zeroed in on one family. They got this.

Or, that is what they want you to think. LE is allowed to lie about cases they investigate. They can lie during interrogations, too....

 

[Bootsctr]

I would also add to the above that, with all the arrests and Grand Juries convened in the last 2 years, LE may have gotten all they're going to find from the local gentry. If this was a professional hit, the person who ordered it probably doesn't live in the community, nor do the actual killers.

The only former locals who might know who called in the hit are now living in AK. There may be a few local drug/MJ traffickers in the area who also might know (probably why they busted the Eurys). Any of that info should have come out in the GJ, though. LE probably has an idea of who the boss(es) are and they'll have to rely on LE in the areas where they're located.

Why can't they call in members of the W family to testify in the GJ? Surely they've checked their phone records from that night and the weeks before. Are they waiting for a lot of physical evidence? They may wait a long time for that. Junk probably knows if he has to go up against an organized crime boss, they'll have a lot of high priced legal representation. They may just have to be satisfied in busting the top people on some other charge.

Self-delete.

 

[Dudly]

I would also add to the above that, with all the arrests and Grand Juries convened in the last 2 years, LE may have gotten all they're going to find from the local gentry. If this was a professional hit, the person who ordered it probably doesn't live in the community, nor do the actual killers.

The only former locals who might know who called in the hit are now living in AK. There may be a few local drug/MJ traffickers in the area who also might know (probably why they busted the Eurys). Any of that info should have come out in the GJ, though. LE probably has an idea of who the boss(es) are and they'll have to rely on LE in the areas where they're located.

Why can't they call in members of the W family to testify in the GJ? Surely they've checked their phone records from that night and the weeks before. Are they waiting for a lot of physical evidence? They may wait a long time for that. Junk probably knows if he has to go up against an organized crime boss, they'll have a lot of high priced legal representation. They may just have to be satisfied in busting the top people on some other charge.

Income Tax evasion works for that quite often...

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Looking back on the case, if it's ever solved LE may regret the "we cannot protect you" stance with the families and the community. Surely there are some positive examples out there of LE using the right approach to get information from addicts who may have information about a serious crime. Addicts don't think or behave like normal people, their addiction damages their brains and their psyche. I find the case in Oklahoma to be baffling in that they already had some good evidence to connect the killers to the murders of that family. It seems less a matter of why didn't the addicts confess what they knew than why didn't LE find better ways to get information from them.

Slightly off topic, but the news is breaking about the possible resolution of another cold, cold case, the EAR/ONS.

Turns out the guy worked in law enforcement through the first several years of his crime spree. Many are speculating that it explains how he used training and inside information to choose targets and evade detection

https://www.thedailybeast.com/golde...rding-to-co-author-of-ill-be-gone-in-the-dark

Betty one of the back stories on the Freeman murders was that the Freeman's were considering filing a wrongful death suit against the Craig county sheriff's office. A CCSO deputy shot and killed the Freeman's son a year earlier after a high speed chase. When the son finally stopped the deputy said he reached into his pocket so the deputy shot and killed him. I believe it was later discovered the young man was unarmed. But there was no excuse for the OSBI not to follow up on the insurance card the PI's found at the crime scene. Remember these two children were kept bound and gagged for several days in a trailer not 3/4ths of a mile from where they were abducted. The insurance card was found two days after they were taken and reported to LE. There is more than an excellent chance the girls were alive when the PI found and reported the card. It has crossed my mind that one of the girls may have even thrown that card out of the car in hopes LE would find it and rescue them. I have had nightmares about that for the last few days.

I have followed this case for many years now and I am devastated to find there was a chance they could have been rescued if the OSBI and CCSO had just went to the trailer of the woman who owned the car the insurance ID belonged to. After all they had her name and address on the ID card but didn't even bother to take the card from the PI's. A real shame and a real stain on the OSBI and CCSO.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/04/25/us/ap-us-ohio-family-killed.html

April 25, 2018
COLUMBUS, Ohio — The Ohio Supreme Court on Wednesday once again rejected requests for unredacted autopsy reports from the unsolved slayings of eight family members.

The court ruled 5-2 without comment against reconsidering its December decision that the Pike County coroner in southern Ohio does not have to release the reports with complete information.

 

[Betty P]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/04/25/us/ap-us-ohio-family-killed.html

Thanks, Mitten. Here's another news report

http://radio.wosu.org/post/ohio-supreme-court-wont-make-pike-county-autopsies-public#stream/0

The newspapers asked the court to reconsider its December decision, saying the ruling sets a precedent allowing investigators to shield records on "an impossibly vague standard."

Wednesday's decision is the last word, said Jack Greiner, an attorney representing the Enquirer, who called the ruling disappointing.

"Fortunately, the decision in the main case is extremely narrow," he said. "It applies only to final autopsy reports in homicide related autopsies."

The newspapers had argued there is no evidence the full reports contain confidential information provided by law enforcement authorities, nor any evidence the autopsies were prepared with input from investigators.

Not surprising, but a bad decision that sets a precedent from one of the least qualified, inept and corrupt Ohio Supreme Court benches in state history. JMO.

This decision attempts to remove one of the cornerstones of the law that protect the rights of the public to oversee the work of elected officials. It not only restricts public (news media) access to the Rhoden murder AR reports, it does so for every autopsy report in Ohio. So, if a government official or LE agency wants to cover up a crime resulting in someone's death - whether murder, manslaughter, medical malpractice, etc. , all they have to do is say it's part of an investigation.

For example, if a nursing home has a reputation for mistreating patients, the autopsy reports of patients or residents who died under suspicious circumstances, this ruling makes it impossible for the news media or concerned citizens to review the ARs of deceased patients. These days many politicians make fortunes in the nursing home industry and could use their influence to block public access to AR's of patients with suspicious deaths. Same situation could apply to people who die from abuse in jails, during arrests, etc. There are a lot of possibilities.

Hopefully, the decision will eventually be challenged and overturned, but it could take a long time. Ohio is one messed up state.

ETA: More news links

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...onsider-making-public-family-slain-autopsies/

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/l...-slain-pike-county-family-public/95-545645020

 

[Betty P]

Betty one of the back stories on the Freeman murders was that the Freeman's were considering filing a wrongful death suit against the Craig county sheriff's office. A CCSO deputy shot and killed the Freeman's son a year earlier after a high speed chase. When the son finally stopped the deputy said he reached into his pocket so the deputy shot and killed him. I believe it was later discovered the young man was unarmed. But there was no excuse for the OSBI not to follow up on the insurance card the PI's found at the crime scene. Remember these two children were kept bound and gagged for several days in a trailer not 3/4ths of a mile from where they were abducted. The insurance card was found two days after they were taken and reported to LE. There is more than an excellent chance the girls were alive when the PI found and reported the card. It has crossed my mind that one of the girls may have even thrown that card out of the car in hopes LE would find it and rescue them. I have had nightmares about that for the last few days.

I have followed this case for many years now and I am devastated to find there was a chance they could have been rescued if the OSBI and CCSO had just went to the trailer of the woman who owned the car the insurance ID belonged to. After all they had her name and address on the ID card but didn't even bother to take the card from the PI's. A real shame and a real stain on the OSBI and CCSO.

Yes, OSBI has been involved in a number of controversial homicide investigations over the years. I can think of at least 2 or 3 that have been discussed here at WS.

 

[amauet1]

Bringing over Betty P's post from thread 31.

Originally Posted by rsd1200
There was nothing glowing or sentimental about that. I was stating facts. I believe that when LM speaks of "family", he's speaking of, at the very least, JW. They may be killers, but, they've obviously kept up a good front. They appear to be the type folks I'd likely not be rubbing elbows with, but, again, that's just my perception. The Rs and the Ms are more my style, but, I have nothing more on the Ws than the rest of you do. Which means, they are not even suspects, according to LE. They're only being looked at hard. I don't know why you think they were never friends with them. I'm not saying they ate Sunday dinner together, but their kids had a child together and the two had been together for almost five years. I have contact with my kids' inlaws, and while we don't hang out, or do dinners, or holidays, I would call them, "friend". If they murder me tomorrow, then I was obviously wrong about that.

​

They were in the midst of a custody battle over Hanna's daughter, S. They wanted to take her away from her mother and grandparents. That's not friendly.

If you're thinking more in terms of them being frenemies, I don't pick that up in the relationship, either. Hanna was moving on, didn't want to be in a relationship anymore with JW. That was a good thing, considering his having sex with her at age 14 could be considered statutory rape. She wasn't mature enough to consent to an adult sexual relationship. He was controlling and according to some reports, stalker-ish. It was a positive thing for Hanna that she was finally breaking free of his control of her life and that of his mother.

These people's lives had value and meaning, regardless of their poverty. They deserved to live, not die. They deserve respect in death, not to be regarded as if they were a bunch of people who couldn't tell their friends from their enemies or had no right to control their own lives and futures.


BBM

Betty, you just described the type of ex who kills his girlfriend who has moved on with someone else.

Picks a girlfriend who is too young and immature to stand up for herself. Too young to go against any decisions he might make for her. He is controlling. Stalker-ish. And when she finally grows up enough to stand up for herself and makes the decision to get away from him, he kills her. And if he is angry enough at her he kills her family too.

It has happened countless times all across the USA and other countries. It is on the news almost every day.

It has been my top theory the W's are in it up to their necks and the run to Alaska was to try to get away from LE questions courtesy of elder Wags.

On another note, anyone can hire a private investigator, they do not have to be family although LE probably would not co operate as fully with the PI as they would if he was hired by family. Or a PI could offer to work it pro bono. The PI could even loan LM a dollar to give back to the PI and thus be considered to be working for the family LM in particular. In that case LE would probably co operate with the PI in sharing some things since LE generally welcomes PI's as extra help in a case.

The PI does not legally have to disclose who he is working for and will not if his client asks him not to.​

Good to see you back Rasin! I took a couple days off due to alergy's! Ah! Spring! Here's a question I have I wonder why the custody thing started in the first place? What caused the friction between the R's and W's, that they thought they had to go to court? I thought the W's said that the arrangement they had in place was working before the murders. I don't believe it was a move to Alaska, since that happened after the murders. To get away to a safer place. And it seemed to me that HMR and JW were over, long before this custody thing. I'm pretty sure that HMR knew who the father was. Since she had broken up with JW and moved onto CG, then while pregnant started a relationship with CH. I know that looks bad, but kids do this today. So my biggest question is, why did JW even think he could be the father of her baby? She didn't seem like a player, just a confused young girl that was trying to do her best. And at her age, getting attention and love mixed up, like a lot of us do. So what was the "falling out" between the W's and R's that started this?

 

[amauet1]

Allow me to clarify: I don't think anyone local knows who the actual killers were. A few may know who ordered the killings or know the circumstances that brought about the massacre. I think some of the W's know more than anyone, but they're not local anymore. Anyone who actually knows something is highly unlikely to talk. The message sent by the Rhoden murderers was clear - anyone who talks will see the same thing or worse happen to their family. How does LE get anyone who might know something to give up that information without offering them, their family and friends some kind of protection?

But, JMO, the actual triggermen were strangers to the community. Anyone powerful enough to arrange the deaths of 8 people aren't likely to take chances by recruiting killers who could be identified by locals or LE. JMO, I could be wrong, but that's my theory.

The only thing I can say is why did Reader say it was locals? More than one? If this crime had been "planned" as Dewine said they could have practiced senerios for this crime. IMO they did.I think the only monkey wrench thrown into it , was Dana working that double shift that day.